Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Taken from the FRC Manual, 4/16/13: http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0#term 107

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I am skeptical that the new practice field policy (running back to back 2:15 minute matches with FMS) is an improvement. It turns a 15 minute practice slot into 4:30 of running time. It also implies (unfortunately) that inevitable FMS related delays will now be present on the practice field as well.

If you want to tune autonomous, you get two shots and you're out.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

From the practice field policy document:

Tuning autonomous would be a good use of one of the practice field goals.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I foresee the "Four regional practice field goal setups" being way more crowded than the actual practice field for the reasons that Jared mentioned.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Not if your autonomous moves your robot any distance. I doubt they will let teams drive their robot autonomously in an ad-hoc area with a bunch of goals.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I believe they're referring to the 1/3 field setups that were available at many regionals (Pine Trees, and CTR at the least), in which case it'd be as useful as a practice field is at any of those regionals, with the addition of two full practice fields for mock matches.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I have to say, using FMS and basically putting the practice field on a match schedule seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

It takes a small army's worth of people to get teams out to their official matches on the dome floor, on the field and playing. I can only imagine what it will be like in a less "official" environment.


I fear that if the practice field begins falling behind for one reason or another, the first thing to go will be your 2nd practice match. I also fear that if a team forgets to say close a pneumatic valve or plug in a wire, being in a 'match' setting will not allow these types of issues to be corrected on the spot. A mistake like this could mean waiting in the filler line for an hour could be a total waste of time...

-Brando

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

It doesn't say anything about a pyramid in these areas, only goals. Without a pyramid plopped down the proper distance away from the goals and discs placed in the right spots underneath and at midfield, it's going to be hard to test what our team needs to test.

Still, just having goals will certainly be useful to a large number of teams.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Do we know if these tethered fields will be open Wednesday, or does the Hours of Operation section apply to both types?


I wish FIRST would offer some kind of rationalization (or warning/response period) when they make changes like this. Running matches is not what most teams I know look for on the practice field. If there's no pyramid on the tethered fields, we'll be lucky if we can climb at all.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Now I'm really hoping we don't have any problems with our climber because right now it doesn't look like we have an area to test in and view it up close to diagnose problems.

Why does FIRST do this?

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I suspect that the practice field setup will end up being a net plus for teams testing autonomous pickup/defense modes. I also suspect that team members will be pressed into service to reset the practice field whilst their team is out there.

Brandon - spend that hour in line making sure that your pneumatics are closed and charged. The match cycles on the competition field are going to be tight, you start a match with an open pneumatic valve and it will be a greater loss than a practice field match.

Wetzel

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Practice fields will not be open Wednesday Evening.

The Rest of the Schedule is as follows:

Thursday 7:30AM to 8PM

Friday 7:30AM to 6:30PM (Closed for Opening Ceremonies, 8:15-9am)

Saturday 7:30AM to 10:30AM...

Not sure what the 10:30AM Close time on Saturday Morning is all about, I hope that it has something to do with them being reserved for Elimination Alliances or something like that.

Relevant Document: http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...ice_Fields.pdf

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Suggest watching Q625, though I'm not expecting an answer.

I also asked Q626 (if everyone agrees, can we practice individually for 15 minutes), but I think we know the answer there. Actually, I don't even know how hard it is to switch the FMS between these two options.


Dustin,
Yes, that's what I'm referencing, but I don't see anything on there that indicates those hours of operation apply to the tethered "regional practice field goal setups". As written, it seems they only apply to what FIRST has capitalized as "Practice Fields", which are the full-size, wireless practice match fields. I'll work under the assumption they're the same hours to be safe, but it'd be nice to know for planning Wednesday.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

If it's like last year, there won't be enough time for all elimination round alliances to get practice time after alliance selections are over.

Y'all have fun with that! :)

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

The way I interpreted the document is that the Goal Setups (we should call this shooting galleries or firing ranges or some other more interesting name) operate the same hours as the other practice fields - though it would make sense for them to be open instead of the full fields on Wednesday night since they - in theory - only need one volunteer to operate.

Now that I think about it, if there isn't somewhere 'safe' to shoot discs on Wednesday night things could get interesting...

We were lucky enough to be able to get onto the practice field last year without too much hassle. Then again, our pit was 25' or so from the field so that helped...

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

You would have to modify the time allowed for a match, this was my first year as scorekeeper and I seem to remember an option to do so. At MN 10K Lakes we had a long exhibition match where some news crews took videos of a couple robots before the venue opened one morning. I believe it was relatively easy to do so.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I agree, I just think part of the key advantage of a practice field is being able to adjust and look at things as they happen instead of just plowing through 2 minutes without knowing exactly what's going on.

For example, if you are jammed- you want to be able to freeze time, run out to the robot and see EXACTLY what's going on. Ditto for 30 point climbers who want to see why a hook won't latch, etc.


Just running matches does take away a good portion of that troubleshooting aspect of practice time.

-Brando

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I don't think this will work well. A majority of the time that we need the practise field, its because of things that we specifically could not figure out without a close look at the robot. I just know the practise field will be a long wait all day too. I couldn't imagine having to practise climbing 30...

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Now comes the tricky part: how do you do choose when to freeze time when you have 6 teams out there?

I saw some seriously questionable choices made by teams on the practice field this year - shooting long distance shots over other teams, one robot climbing whilst another team took their robot down from 30 point land, robots driving into people on other teams. I know the UL guys noted a lot of these things and I bet there was a report with recommendations made. I miss the days when we could put one person on the field with the robot during Thursday at regionals, but I understand the concern with other robots out there.

Adjusting the match time in FMS is not difficult.

Wetzel

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

"Man, you know what we're missing at CMP?"

"More things controlled by the FMS?!"

"YOU'RE DARN RIGHT!"

-Probable conversation I wish was held in alternate reality where the FMS was actually not a source of delays and tears.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

i could see people who want to climb 30 on the practice field avoiding it in fear that their robot will fall if the climber isn't perfect or was added for championship.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Well, this looks useless.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

This is my point exactly. You can't do this stuff with 6 teams operating as a practice match.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I too agree the practice field wasn't the best managed at several events. At Pine Tree when we were testing our climber there were two other robots testing their shooters on the either side of the pryamid. Not the safest setup but all teams on the field were asked prior if we we could share a slot and we agreed.

Champs would be best setup with the following:

1. Two full practice fields for tethered operation (two for each division just like we always have had).

2. Several carpeted practice spaces that could include the following setup (One set of goals with pyramid spaced to field specs and next to it a stand alone pyramid for climb testing).


Now I am all for radio practice matches those are good and if FIRST/the community saw a need for these I would recommend one full practice field for tethered testing and one full practice field for full practice matches (run one match at a time for quick turn over of teams) AND increase the number of option 2 above so more teams can do tethered testing.

The reasons Brandon has mentioned are the reasons we need tethered field testing. The purpose is to diagnose while operating. If not how will you know what to fix or where your problems lie. Most of the time we have issues in a regular match we say, "Straight to the practice field/pit to test this" not, "Lets get right back in line for another match".

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Yet again FIRST blows it big time. Pure genius move. Obviously nobody at FIRST understands why teams use the practice fields. It's got nothing to do with practicing driving and everything to do with debugging.

If this was a safety issue they should have said "due to the unsafe nature of having multiple robots and people interacting on the practice field, we have decided...". Instead it just makes it sound like they did it for the hell of it.

They've allowed people on the practice field with their robots for a very long time. It's hard to believe it only became a safety concern now.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

One of the things that bugs me is that way FMS and the robot interface is different than the practice field without FMS. I had a number of teams at events this year that we could identify a problem but would be unable to replicate it on the practice field. I got the CSAs involved and we would eventually hammer it out. It sucked not being able to run a test match with FMS outside of qual rounds to try and identify the cause/test potential solutions. It's frustrating. This will help with that, but I suspect that most of the teams that made it to Championship will have had those problems knocked out at prior events.

Wetzel

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Can't agree with this more. I'd be totally okay with this change if they were open with their reasoning (and the reasons were good)

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

This game is actually very dangerous with most teams firing discs at extremely high speed as well as climbing multiple levels. Safety could have played into the decision. We aren't shooting poof balls or just climbing to one level our robots this year can cause injuries!


If safety was a factor I hope FIRST would tell us that so it sits better not, "I think this is a better idea lets give it a try."

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

This is just awful. I was really looking forward to the managed, allotted time blocks that the 2012 Championships offered, at least in writing. How well did this work in practice last year? I'd much rather have one and only one solid guaranteed 15 minute debugging session than try to wait in line, feel rushed, hope someone doesn't overstay their welcome, or have to pop out for a match.

Just trying to understand if someone knows more on the reasoning of the change.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Then they should have disallowed people being on the practice field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I feel like this practice field arrangement will result in fewer teams getting their 7 disc auto working for championship, that didn't have it before championship. It's a shame that this looks like it will change how the game evolves at championship.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I went to 6 events this year and at no time were people on the field whilst robots were active.

Edit: I was referring the full field above. The practice field was often a mess and required constant supervision.

Wetzel

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Very true, however how many regional events had a full field for tethered practice in 2013? If 2013 practice field rules were the same as previous years, how many teams would be on the field at once? I don't know about you but at every regional I have been to in 10 years the practice field has been small and not a full field so FIRST wouldn't have seen this until they started planning the 2013 practice field rules.

The safety side does make sense when you have teams like 67, 1519, 987, 610, and other FCS cranking away full court shots and others want to test too. I personally would not want to be on the field testing while those teams are.

If safety was their reasoning it makes sense. I agree it would be nice to know that reasoning.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Took 'em 7 weeks to conclude there'd be a barrage of HP lobbed discs at the end of the match.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

On the field at all, or on the goal side? If the concern was teams interfering with each other, why not just improve on the regional model of putting each team in a requested position? If they orchestrate it as well as in the past, having 6 teams on a full field (3 at each pyramid, or 2 FCSs + 3 pyramid + 1 driving) wouldn't present the safety issues that regionals trying to squeeze 3-4 teams onto a 1/3 field do.

Other than the FCS option, Worlds is less dangerous than the events I've attended: the field is more open (no pillar in the middle :rolleyes:), no tethers running everywhere, only 3 teams per pyramid.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

If they really did do it for the purpose of allowing teams to play 'real' practice matches (ie practice driving) then why not allow both on the field but not at the same time. Every other 15 minute slot could be tethered and teams can sign up for whichever one they want. Maybe to regulate it say that one of the flex slots must be in a driving practice and the other in a tethered practice.

I think that, on a 6 team field, there really are major safety issues. Full court shooting comes to mind. There would have to be safety regulations for the tethered field time where other people are on the field requiring hard hats and disallowing shooting from beyond x distance. Additionally, climbing and shooting could be difficult together: if one team wants to climb the back horizontal bars of the pyramid and the other wants to shoot from the back, they could intersect. To solve this, practice zones would have to be reserved and designed so that robots could not interfere with each other or endanger the people on the field.

Sure, lots of problems exist but they all seem solvable.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

If I had to guess, I would say the reasoning behind this change is a direct response to the issues on Einstein 2012. They are hoping that running full practice matches with FMS will allow teams and CSAs to identify and debug control system problems by providing conditions identical to the real field. Potentially transferring delays from the competition fields to the practice fields.

It's not a good reason, and the logic seems flawed to me, but I think it's the most reasonable explanation for why they chose this new format.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

I'm all for solving FMS issues on the practice field, but does that required running structured matches? Regardless, it'd be nice if FIRST would publish their rationale for making tuning autonomous and climbing routines that much more difficult.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

When it comes to making sure their robots are perfect teams don't always engage in the wisest behaviors. The practice fields tend to be a Wild West where teams seem to forget their common sense and GP and climb over each other for time on every available scrap of carpet.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

Anyone else notice that there is no mention of changing point values for the pyramid? It would appear that they will not be changed. I would think they would have put this in this Update if they were going to do it.

Re: Team Update - 4/16/13
 

IMO, what teams REALLY want to do on the practice field is:

-Run and calibrate autonomous
-Test and calibrate shots - This could include alignment, and actual shooting
-Climb

All of these are generally done with humans reloading, resetting, or watching the robot closely to identify problems seen and what causes them. The first two often require a code laptop to be connected actively for calibration.

I don't think it's possible to calibrate at all while connected through FMS due the strict port blocking (e.g. we need both LabVIEW realtime and FTP to do anything realistic with code, both are blocked by FMS effectively making the practice field useless for us).


The real answer is to have a practice field attendant ask teams where they need to have their robot, arrange all of the robots on the field so they don't interfere with each other, and let them run on tethers. I can't really think of an event I've ever been at where this method did not provide enough development space or time. In fact, the 2011 championship practice fields ran in this way (but with time cards).


Maybe if they want to give CSA's a place to do FMS testing, they should setup a spare FMS somewhere with a little carpet for FMS testing, just enough to prove a robot moves and responds to controls. Realistically, if a team hasn't gotten field issues resolved by qualifications at CMP, aside from the larger overcomplexity/general unreliability of the current system, there's not a whole lot more you can do.