Einstein 2013
 

Einstein discussion here.

33-469-1519(A) vs. 1678-148-862(C)

1241-1477-610(G) vs. 303-3476-1640(N)


Archimedes beats Curie in 2.

Galileo beats Newton in 3.


Galileo beats Archimedes in 3.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

33-469-1519(A) vs. 1678-148-862(C)

1241-1477-610(G) vs. 303-3476-1640(N)


Archimedes beats Curie in 2.

Newton beats Galileo in 3.


Newton beats Archimedes in 3.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes beats Curie
Newton beats Galileo

Newton beats Archimedes in a rubber match

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes beats Curie in 2
Galileo beats Newton in 3

Archimedes beats Galileo in 2

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I think Archimedes tops Galileo. Archimedes has a 90 point auto, while Galileo is maxed out at 72. Galileo also has nothing to stop 1519 from lobbing discs down field for 33 to pick up. I feel Archimedes beats Galileo easily in 2.

And Newton could easily Galileo, but Archimedes could beat them too.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

This has to be one of the most surprising Einsteins in a long time.

Aside from 33-469-1519, I don't think anyone was expecting the other three to pop out of nowhere.

33-469-1519(A) over 1678-148-862(C)
1241-1477-610(G) over 303-3476-1640(N), 3 matches (The odds just seem to be in Galileo's favor just a bit- otherwise it's a very even matchup).

33-469-1519 over 1241-1477-610

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes > Curie in 2

Newton > Galileo in 3

Archimedes > Newton in 3

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I think:
C beats A in 3
N beats G in 3
C beats G in 2

Curie curse broken

*My team didn't make it to champs so this is just for fun*
(At one point I thought that 1114, 118 and 4039 would win it all but that can't happen)

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes in 2 matches.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes over Curie in 2
Newton over Galileo in 3

Archimedes takes home gold in 3 matches

Galileo will win for the third year in a row.

A > C in 2
N < G in 3

G > A in 2

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Completely forgot about the flower wall... Still, 1519 doesn't have to score, just get them to 33. I still think they will be able to pull it off.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Are there any 30 pt climbers on Einstein? I haven't been following most of the robots on their much.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I believe only 1640

Re: Einstein 2013
 

1640. 148 are a twenty+dump.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes beats Curie in 2
Galileo beats Newton in 3

Archimedes beats Galileo in 2

862 is a 10 point.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

862 is a 10pt hanger.
A defeats C in 3
G defeats N in 2
469 33 1519 defeat 610 1477 1241 in 2 to be the new world champs.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Love to see two MAR teams represented on the Newton alliance, but they will be overmatched in the finals vs. Archimedes. Archimedes sweeps both rounds.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Einstein practice match? Are the robots actually driving?

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Yup. This is in response to Einstein last year...I wish they let us see it :(

I think archimedes is going to pull out ahead... 469's ability to do everything well combines with 1519, a FCS which looks a bit too tall to be blocked, and with 33's amazing pickup, they can do everything but a 30 pt climb.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes wins four straight for 33's and 1519's first CMP and 469's second.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I don't think any of the teams will tip their strategy, just test all the mechanisms and code and drive around some. That's what I'd do.

I can only see the red goals, but it looked like Archimedes was playing it hard. Almost overflowing with discs.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Not surprised. 33, 469, and 1519 are very serious teams. Even practice matches help with intimidation.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

33-469-1519(A) vs. 1678-148-862(C)

1241-1477-610(G) vs. 303-3476-1640(N)


Archimedes beats Curie in 2.

Galileo beats Newton in 3.

Archimedes beats Galileo in 3.

(Thanks for letting me copy someones format :rolleyes: )

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Lets hope it actually continues to work. 1114's climber was MUCH more reliable and even it failed at the wrong time.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

33-469-1519(A) vs. 1678-148-862(C)

1241-1477-610(G) vs. 303-3476-1640(N)

Archimedes beats Curie in 2.

Galileo beats Newton in 2.

Galileo beats Archimedes in 3.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archie in straight twos. On a side note, the paper airplanes are getting bad...I've had to put on safety glasses in the stands.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Just tuned into the webcast, I must say, I'm not very impressed with the quality, especially with the audio. None the less, I'm excited to watch these matches.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Who is going to stop both 469 and 1519 from FCS? Archimedes didn't. Curie and newton won't.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I get no audio at all there.

Edit: NVM working now.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

469 and 1519 are both full court shooters, 469 can shoot from all 3 feeder slots. 33 and 469 are both really good floor intake bot. On top of that, all 3 can hang first level. It's going to be tuff for anyone to beat them. Then again, being from the division I was in, I am biased. ;)

My predictions:

Archimedes (2) > Curie (0)

Galileo (1) < Newton (2)


Newton (0) < Archimedes (2)

Curie pulled out a win!! Totally unexpected.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

And Curie crushed that first match...

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Cure beats Archimedes in 2

Galileo beats Newton in 3

Curie beats Galileo in 2

Upset city up in here!
#breakthecurse

Re: Einstein 2013
 

That Newton alliance! 254 points with only two robots operational. :eek: They will certainly make the final Einstein matches exciting!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

How did that happen exactly? what was the point breakdown for 2 robots to do this?

Re: Einstein 2013
 

60 Auto score
164 Teleop score
30 climb points

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Via FRCFMS on Twitter:
@frcfms " #FRCCMP TY E MC 4 RF 254 BF 225 RA 3476 1640 303 BA 1241 610 1477 RC 30 BC 30 RFP 0 BFP 0 RAS 60 BAS 54 RTS 164 BTS 141

Galileo had ~13 /14 (156-168 pts) cycles combined, I'm sure Newton did not score 7 cycles / robot (84 points each between 303 & 3476).

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Archimedes over Newton.

Full Court Shooting prevails

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Feels like Deja Vu from 2007 for some reason, I think Newton wins in three.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Link to my post on another thread

I totally agree, it doesnt add up.

But if it is wrong, can Galileo do about it now?

EDIT: They re-scored it and Galileo won. Math prevails. Actual score is Red: 200 Blue: 225 (Waiting for it)

Re: Einstein 2013
 

oh my..... replay of Newton and Galileo...

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Galileo beat Newton in SF2-2. Now playing match 3. Actual score unknown.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

SF 2-2 was 225 to 200 for Galileo.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

It wasn't a replay, it was match 3.

My question is, where did they get the score from? The field has been cleared and there was a match inbetween. In all fairness, the second match should have been replayed.

Side note, this is Einstein. If we can hand count at Hatboro why can't we hand count at Einstein?

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Heard from a few places that they weren't. Can't confirm though.

At least at the events I've been to, there were different volunteer groups scoring each side.

My point exactly

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I am watching Einstein from far above and they are definitely hand counting.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Disc scored are always counted by hand. Especially in elimination matches. I doubt Einstein is done any differently. Also after each goal is counted, the number of discs are recorded.

Thus a recount is not always required, if it's merely an input error on the system to confirm the number of discs vs how many the real time scoring system shows.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Makes sense.



Safety FIRST, folks

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Go Galileo!!!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Very competitive on Einstein. :D

One more match:

Winner takes all.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

That was Dave's best impression of 842's climb

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Talk about evenly matched, 33 469 1519 have scored 395 and 1241 1477 610 have scored 394.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Prophetic. The only thing missing on this was the Archimedes/Curie matchup going to 3 instead of 2.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

And Galileo takes it for the third year in a row!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Congratulations to our 2013 World Champions, Team 1241, Team 1477, and Team 610!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Amazing performances by all.

1477 <3

Re: Einstein 2013
 

1477 <3 here too.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I'm a little confused. Didn't Newton beat Galileo in the first two matches. Why did it go to a third?

On that note, where can I find the Einstein match results? (My phone died during semis.)

Re: Einstein 2013
 

the 2nd match's score was falsely reported. It was corrected and it went to a third match. Galileo won the 3rd match. You missed a lot of anxiety Emmett!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

They miscalculated the score of that match, Galileo actually won, so they went to the third match where Galileo beat Newton.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Here's what you missed:

SF2-2 was ruled to have been miscounted (254 points being rather a high score when you only have two operational robots), with Galileo actually winning with the announced score and Newton having a smaller score (though not by much, I think it was around 200 points).

SF2-3 was then played and Galileo cleanly won (the only match where all 6 robots were functional the entire time, though none of the shutdowns appeared to be due to field issues).

Galileo then lost F-1 before winning F-2 and F-3.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I was amazed at how two teams were able to put 254 points up in that match, confused me for a bit...however, no one made it easy for these guys to win, a rubber match in every single round? And they had to battle all kinds of bots, from 30/50 point climbers to full-court shooters. Very impressive, well-rounded alliance.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Yes, they did indeed hand count directly after our match. The error wasn't in counting but in adding.

Frank explained it to us personally during finals. They put those baskets up, raise the center of the goal to empty the discs, and then count each basket separately (subtract auton discs later). The two baskets for us were 20 and 26, but instead of writing 46 the scorer inverted it and wrote 64. They didn't recount the discs (because they didn't find it until way later...ouch), Frank just showed us the physical paper on which they'd scribbled:

20
26
64

It hurt (a lot more than it would have otherwise), but there was no doubt and no legal reason to replay. Of course, explaining that to crying students is another issue :(

Galileo deserved it though. They were both fair wins, and personally couldn't think of a better alliance to lose to. Everyone was very gracious. Congratulations, guys!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Wow! What an incredible accomplishment for these young people! I watched my own son, with great fatherly pride, assume a lead role in his senior year in what is basically another Grade 12 course without the credit! FIRST played a big role in his choice of Engineering for his undergrad work next year, and to have everything come together for 610 like this in their school's 100th anniversary year, is amazing!

Hats off to all the boys, the amazing mentors and teachers including Mr. Lim and everyone who had a hand in this incredible experience.

And of course, congratulations to every young person who made some great memories today, and the adults who supported them in their pursuits.

Well done.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

This was an amazing competition and most of the major powershouse teams didn't make it to Einstein!! What do you guys think of FIRST using video recording to overturn a call?

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Please quote a source here, because that's not what happened.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

When it was originally determined that Newton beat Galileo in the second match and therefore put Newton in the finals. This was overturned because of a disc mis-count that was proved by reviewing video from the match and allowed Galileo to beat Newton in the third match therefore advancing to the Einstein Finals.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Oh really?

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Edit:: Gregor beat me too it.

Not quite.

In other news, awesome job 610, 1477, and 1241, you guys were AWESOME and most definitely deserved the win. These are the best finals I have seen in my time in FIRST. (And don't even get me started on Galileo eliminations, those were intense!)

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I was relaying what my mentor told me and he was a volunteer sitting right off the field. Perhaps they used the video to bring it to the attention of the staff of the error. Perhaps not, but my mentor usually never assumes things so i'm pretty inclined to believe there was a video used somewhere to help get the point across. He told me of the 18 disc error

Re: Einstein 2013
 

If they did they shouldn't have.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Referees wouldn't watch video at our regionals either, when we tried to show them video of missed fouls and miscounted matches, they wouldn't watch it, as that is the rule. However, on the biggest stage of FRC, there was reason to believe that with only two active robots, there may have been a miscount in the number of points scored. I wouldn't want to mess up on Einstein.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Agreed, the total was clearly off, and having a pre-college student addressing that is the correct course of action, as shown in section 5.3.3.

The Head Referee can then do what they please, (including consulting FIRST personel), but they may not review video under any circumstance. Doesn't matter if it's the lowest scoring regional, or FIRST's biggest stage, under no circumstances is pretty clear.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Yeah, Siri's post really doesn't address how the score/count/addition was pointed out to be incorrect. I would have guessed that it was simply an "oh duh" moment for whoever did the additions, but that's just speculation. Could have been something else, including reviewing match video. As for whether or not they should have reviewed video, the rules are pretty clear. On the other hand, I prefer a fair outcome (breaking rules optional). Especially when I'm not a fan of the rule (should ban 3rd party video, rather than any video at all).

I'm guessing we'll get a thorough explanation from Frank sometime in the next few days (once everything cools down).

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I hope so. Frank has been very forthcoming thus far. On the bright side, this is far from the debacle last year. Honest mistakes happen. Although, at a competition focused on inspiring students in the areas of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, a basic arithmetic error (if that's what it was) is not particularly inspiring. The important thing is that the lessons that can be learned, are learned, and the appropriate safeguards are put in place for the future.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Siri's account is correct. It was a simple dyslexia/miscommunication error that was noticed and corrected. No replay video was used in the decision.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Can I give a big shout out to 1678? First, it's cool to see a Cali team make it to the highest stage at world champs, but the Citrus Circuits are truly inspirational in additional ways. They went from virtually unknown a few years ago to being extremely competitive for all of the last three years (dare I say, powerhouse?). Their robot might not look as clean and professional as a 254 or 148 bot, but it's nevertheless very high performance. 1678 is a testament to what awesome prototyping, driver practice, and good old fashioned hard work can do.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I just wanted to recognize 303, 3476 & 1640 for playing an amazing strategy on Newton and onto Einstein. 3476's floor pickup was some of the best I've seen all year. 303's full court shooting was top notch and 1640's ability to go from collecting discs and shooting to playing defense at the drop of a hat was great to watch, and that 30 point climb absolutely gave you the edge.

I know it's going to take some time to get over the scoring mistakes made on Einstein, but be proud of how far you went this year. You all surprised everyone and I think you had the entire stadium rooting for you in the Newton finals.

I was hoping to see MAR vs. Michigan play out on the biggest stage and for a second there it almost happened.

We really, really have to make sure that this kind of stuff doesn't happen again next year. Two years running Einstein ran less than spectacular, for different reasons, but to me it didn't feel like Einstein until the final matches because of this scoring goof.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Thanks it means a lot to hear that especially from someone just pointing it out on the internet.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Wow, simply wow. I have a million and one stories to share of this weekend, but I'm going to need a couple days to process the whirlwind that this weekend was. I'm so proud of our students and mentors alike, for never giving up in the face of adversity every step of the way. Thank you as well to our partners 1241 and 1477 for making this dream a reality. And thank you as well to 469, 33 and 1519. I couldn't have asked for a better group of teams to compete against in the big show.

Threedom for life.

-Nick

Re: Einstein 2013
 

As a member of 303, I'd like to congratulate the Champions, 1241-1477-610, who are some of the best robots to play on Einstein. This alliance definitely deserved the victory in match 2 and 3 of the semifinals. While the way match 2 was handled definitely was disappointing, there was no need for a reset of the match, only the scoring was incorrect.

Overall, the experience of the entire competition was amazing. Making it to Einstein with 3476 and 1640 (who I cannot thank enough), was absolutely the greatest moment in 303 history.

I can only hope that next year can be just as (or even more) amazing than this year!

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I second that shout out!

Their robot was my favorite at Davis last year, simply because it looked like a signboard but shot so perfectly. It was amazing this year to see their 7disk autonomous on Einstein. Also, it was really nice talking to their mentor.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Special shout out to Jondarr Bradshaw, the best announcer in FIRST. I'm glad they let him announce on Einstein this year, he really has an amazing voice.

I think all the congratulations have already been said. One word about the alliances that made it to Einstein and have in previous years:

They were true alliances.

Other alliances may have had the best robots but it seems to me that the ones that win Einstein are composed of not just two of the very best and a good one but a true power team as the third bot. How 610, 1519, 862, 1640 fell to the second round is stupendous.

It's interesting to take a look at the pedigree of each of the Einstein bots and where they were in the draft:

Archimedes 2nd alliance: 33 (3 districts), 469 (3 districts and MSC), 1519 (1 regional) (1 State Championship, 6 districts, 1 regional)

Curie 1st alliance: 1678 (1 regional, 148 (2 regionals), 862 (2 districts) (2 districts, 3 regionals)

Newton 3rd alliance: 303 (no wins), 3476 (no wins), 1640 (MAR cmp as 16th pick) (1 Region Championship)

Galileo 5th alliance: 1241 (no wins), 1477 (1 win [almost didn't qualify]), 610 (1 win) (2 regional wins)

The combined OPR pre-championship of each alliance using best OPR was [in order of pick]:
Archimedes: 74+92+64= 230
Curie: 46+71+68= 185
Newton: 47+50+43= 140
Galileo: 55+77+63= 195

So Archimedes was highly favored to win but Galileo was close enough. Also note how in none of the alliances did the alliance captain have the best OPR prior to Championships.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Sorry, but quoting the pre-champ OPR for judgement of each alliance...

Re: Einstein 2013
 

The teamwork required to synchronize trips to and from the feeder station with three cyclers still astounds me. The rotation of defense was perfect, this was a strategy not expected (no true defender to block an FCS, as 610 never used their blocker and 1477 was just raising their shooter). Then the attempts to sut down 1114's climb (unfortunately got several foul points in the first match, but at least they recognized the threat). How 610 dropped that low in the draft, I have no idea but that just sealed the deal to gt three amazing bots like themselves on the same alliance. I wonder how IRI will turn out to be...

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Oh I in no way believe it to be a reliable indicator of who should have won once they hit Einstein. Purely from a 'who could have predicted this!' standpoint, I think they are just interesting numbers and directly comparable to team performance in the regional/district season.

Especially in the case of Code Orange, I have no doubt that their pre-cmp OPR was highly unrepresentative of their actual performance.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Using the OPR's recorded in the FRC Tracker app (This is all from CMP), I got the following total combined OPR's for each Einstein alliance:

Archimedes: 179.9

Curie: 189.9

Galileo: 146.7

Newton: 185.9

Obviously, OPR told us nothing about anything at all, as usual.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Except, that all of the teams on Einstien are excellent, and that it really was anyone's game.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

I believe our alliance had the 4th lowest combined Champs OPR of all created Alliances... I think that tells you that scouting is alot more then just stats, strategy is just as important.

Now to try and put my thoughts together on this weekend...

Re: Einstein 2013
 

It really was, that was the most exciting battle on Einstein I've ever heard of.
Very true, I could not believe that you 3 ended up on the same alliance, every one of your robots was amazing at everything it did, you all ran cycles at break-neck speed and had incredible scoring consistency, you guys had one heck of an alliance.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Thanks team 100 for the shout out. In our early days, you were an inspiration to us and we still have a very high regard for your team. It was a great honor for our team to be able to compete on Einstein and also to be joined by such class teams as 148 and 862. We look forward to seeing you guys at Cal Games.

Re: Einstein 2013
 

Sorry, what is a rubber match?

Re: Einstein 2013
 

It's the deciding match when the series is tied (in our case, the third match of an eliminations pairing). The term actually comes from a card game called bridge.