Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1271617)

Something I think is relevant to the discussion. Here in America, professional sports leagues have things like salary caps and playoffs which keep competition level and largely prevent "powerhouse" teams from winning the title year after year. As an example, the past 10 Super Bowls have been won by 7 different teams. Over in European soccer leagues, they don't have any of that, the top team after the regular season wins the league. Here is the same statistic for the top 4 leagues:

• England - 4 teams
• Spain - 3 teams
• Germany - 5 teams
• Italy - 3 teams

Less teams win, but it can be argued much more strongly that the best team in each of these leagues won the title each year. I would have to say that FRC is much closer to the NFL in this regard. Divisions, alliances, and eliminations ensure that we have different champions every year, and the widely regarded "best team" doesn't always win.

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1271633)

Sorry, Adam, but I must disagree. I believe it's known as Parkinson's Law: Work expands to fill the allotted time.

What I mean is this: Expand the season to 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 weeks, and I'm willing to bet that you will STILL spend multiple hours a day, multiple days a week, every week, trying to iterate a newer and better item, reworking the robot between Week 1 and your first competition when you realize that your design isn't working out, doing a lot of things to make the robot perform better, or even just driver practice.

The ONLY thing that will be different is... wait for it...

... You'll have your competition robot to do it on. That means you don't need to build a practice robot. Assuming that you did that after bag day anyway (or before building the competition robot), you really aren't saving that much wear and tear on yourself, because you're still running into the "Just one more tweak" from 3 or 4 different directions, which leads to more late nights, more nights, later nights...


Basically, what I'm saying is that by allowing teams to work longer, they will do just that, resulting in even more burnout. It's just human nature. I would almost go so far as to say that it won't help the teams you're trying to help, it'll hurt them. Almost.

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1271861)

We've talked about raising the floor. Giving the "floor" more access to their machine does exactly that. Jim Zondag has data that shows more competitions and more access to the robot leads to better performance.

Will it just create a mean shift of performance for all teams? Yeah, most likely, but it may also tighten up the difference between the best and worst teams. We are probably approaching the limits on how much better the best teams can get.

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1271861)

I don't want to drag this out, and maybe it's a topic of discussion for a different thread...

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1271745)

Naturally there will be more repeat champions in a ~30 team league than a ~2500 team league. The fact that a number of teams have won multiple championships in the past decade is ridiculous as it is.

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik (Post 1272186)

Once again no multi-quote thingy... really need to learn that trick.

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik (Post 1272186)

Blue banners don't breed contempt.

Originally Posted by Astrokid248 (Post 1272448)

Saw this in another thread, so I'll cross-post it here without the poster's name:

O_o
I think the rest of this thread already sums up why this thought is patently wrong, but the above post was made after the inception of this thread, so I think it speaks to the general nature of the students/parents/mentors who make these generalizations.

Originally Posted by NXTGeek (Post 1272745)

Hi, we are a 3rd year team and work out of a 2-car garage and build our robot out of 1/4-20 bolts and aluminum extrusion. We worked really really hard, used a solid strategy and design process, and after countless iterations of our robot's design we won our division at championship.

NASA or not, you can strive to be the best you can.

The Robonauts have an incredible group of friendly, dedicated, and inspired kids. They recruited more and more students- and have a huge, well organized team that inspires the FIRST world year after year. Why would you ever hold that against them?

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik (Post 1272186)

Wins really don't matter regarding team bashing. What matters is how well the team being bashed appears to do. To continue using a sports analog, but changing sports to hockey because it is awesome and I don't know spit about football, look at the red wings. They are the single most hated (and loved) team in the NHL, but they only have 11 Stanley cups. Compare that to Montreal which has 24. The difference is that the wings have made the playoffs for what 23 seasons straight and are always at the top of the league.

Originally Posted by OZ_341 (Post 1269632)

Team 341 was recently stereotyped in another CD thread and we have been quietly disrespected like this for about 5 years now. So, I feel the need to speak out. But I promise this post has a positive outlook.

In 2005 our team became frustrated with losing on the playing field and funds were very low. At that point we had a choice to make. We could either, blame other teams and complain about all of the resources that the “elite” teams have or we could decide to work our tails off. We chose to be positive and just try really, really hard to improve.

Unfortunately some teams in the previously mentioned thread have not made that choice, as yet. While I can certainly understand the frustration that comes with competition, using another team as a punching bag really disturbs me deeply. I am upset mostly because teams, that don’t know anything about Miss Daisy’s history, make assumptions based on stereotypes. FIRST stereotypes are dangerous and are usually developed out of a need to target a source for built up frustrations.

I am not replying in an attempt to embarrass or attack anyone, so please do not take this personally. I just want to set a few things straight about the so-called “Elite” Miss Daisy. My hope is that maybe in understanding our team, you may look at other successful teams differently. I am sure that we also know very little about the inner workings of other teams.

Stereotype #1: “Miss Daisy is Rich”
I am the founder of our team and for the last 11 years, the team has basically run on my credit card, which gets frantically paid off in May with sponsor funds and fundraising. Many years we finish the season with almost zero left in our account. One year I was $5,000 in debt until July. I probably lose about 1 to 2 thousand dollars of my family’s personal money every year. Yes we have very kind and generous sponsors, but we are not what you think we are. Every year we start with almost nothing and fundraise like crazy. I won’t insult your intelligence by saying we are poor, but we are certainly not the rich team that you imagine.

Stereotype #2: “Miss Daisy has an unlimited machine shop”
No. We have a very small lathe, a small mill, and a cut-off saw. That is it. The vast majority of our robot each year (over 95%) is designed and built by our students in a high school woodshop with rickety tables. We succeed by using our resources wisely and knowing our limitations. We have mostly won by choosing very effective strategies and not by having the best machine on the field. In 2012, we built our best machine ever. Some visitors to our pit were visibly disappointed to find that our machine was a pile of extruded aluminum and urethane belting, just cleverly arranged and programmed.

Stereotype #3: “Miss Daisy is designed by Corporate Engineers”
We do not have any outside engineers that come to us directly from our sponsors. Every Engineer, CAD mentor, or Media coach on Miss Daisy is a former FIRST/341 student, a friend of a student, a team parent, or a teacher. We do not have a single engineer or professional on our team that is not in that category. Our fantastic engineering design mentorship comes from our former team members and their friends. We are an absolutely home-grown organization.

Stereotype #4 : “Miss Daisy always wins everything”
We had an anomaly in 2003 where we made it to Einstein. It was an amazing experience.
Do you know when we won our very first regional? The answer: 2007
That’s right. It only took us 7 years to figure out how to be a consistent winner. Before that we had never even been in the finals at any regional and had only made it to the semi-finals twice. Yes we win quite often now and I am very proud of our performance over the last 7 years. But it was due to the dedication and sacrifice of many students, just like any other team.

Summary:
In 2005 we made it a stated objective of our team to strive for sustained excellence both on and off the field, while maintaining all of the GP standards that we so deeply believe in. We collected resources, paid closer attention to winning team models, adopted a philosophy of continuous improvement, and always, above all else, treated other teams with the respect they deserve. We helped teams in need and looked up to “Elite” programs with admiration. We still do this.

Every team in FIRST can make this choice. Be positive, help others, and work like a maniac behind the scenes. This approach will bring you joy and satisfaction, whether you win or not. Attacking or mocking other teams will only lead to more frustration. I hope this explains who we are.
I am also hopeful that this post will make teams think twice before stereotyping another team. Instead, I strongly urge everyone to spend their energy learning from successful teams. Learning and striving creates positive energy.

As always, Miss Daisy wishes everyone a great off-season.

Originally Posted by Siri (Post 1272754)

I love your guys' story. It's so inspiring, especially after Einstein with you this year. 303, too -- I don't know their whole story, but they went through a lot of sponsor & school changes in like 2007...and now they host their own district event! 1640's moved homes like 11 times in 9 years. I'm sure there are so many amazing that touch down on Einstein each year.

I think we should have a site to archive these team stories together.
Particularly for Worlds' award winners (HoF, EI, engineering and team awards, Einstein, etc), but really for everyone. It'd be a great place to direct the perhaps under-educated in our community to gain a lot of inspiration.

Originally Posted by hunterteam3476 (Post 1273336)

.......everything on the robot was student CAD, student build, we work in a two car garage......