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-   -   Saving Seats Epidemic (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116618)

dellagd 05-05-2013 01:45

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Personally, I like the idea of giving each team a reserved section for 12 members. Thats 2 people per robot and really not many teams go more than that. These seats get the best positions relative to the field.

I've rushed into the arena before, and my real concern is just getting a prime location for our scouts. If the rest of the team isnt as close as possible, or if we're a little spread out, it really isnt the end of the world.

The priority is making sure our scouting can be successful, and that is a big priority. If the cheer-ers, parents, spectators, or whatever you want to call the not-directly-contributing members of the team cant see which discs go into the red top slot clearly, I (and they) wont care so much.

I know getting there really early is not fun, but there really should be a way to prevent the initial mad run. And if a team is there a little later, they shouldnt not be unable to scout because 3 teams of 50 people took up all of the seats in the front rows. Are those the only spots scouting is possible from? No, not at all, but it just doesnt seem right. I have respect for waking up a 5 am, but still, every team should have a good chance to succeed at scouting, I mean, getting those people to watch a hundred match is hard enough as it is! :P

Ryan Dognaux 05-05-2013 16:42

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1272357)
After 20 years you'd think FIRST could figure out how to make people form a proper queue.

Setup one of these outside the event with a few security personnel and watch your problems ago away -



Or maybe we should ask the Brits for some advice.

Mike Marandola 05-05-2013 21:15

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux (Post 1272518)
Setup one of these outside the event with a few security personnel and watch your problems ago away -



Or maybe we should ask the Brits for some advice.

Yes, First needs some British volunteers. All will be solved.:)

Jaxom 06-05-2013 00:36

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1272396)
In my home regional event, Finger Lakes, the regulars have been attending for so long that everyone takes the same seats every year. We always sit in the top of the venue, closest to the pits. 1126 sits next to us. 3173 sits beneath us. 1511 sits across from us. In four years I've never seen this change and I'd hate for some sort of assigned seating change it. That said, as long as it was reserved seating like airplanes are, it could work.

So, in effect you're reserving seats via tradition. What would the reactions be if a team outside of the area comes to FLR for the first time and unknowingly sits in one or more of these teams' seats? Or if a rookie team in the area does the same thing?

Koko Ed 06-05-2013 04:36

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxom (Post 1272635)
So, in effect you're reserving seats via tradition. What would the reactions be if a team outside of the area comes to FLR for the first time and unknowingly sits in one or more of these teams' seats? Or if a rookie team in the area does the same thing?

They always exclaim what good fortune it is that the seats at the bottom of the stands are readily available and gleefully sit there. Then they realizes that everyone crowds around the field and learn to sit up higher like everyone else.

Kimmeh 06-05-2013 07:46

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1272650)
They always exclaim what good fortune it is that the seats at the bottom of the stands are readily available and gleefully sit there. Then they realizes that everyone crowds around the field and learn to sit up higher like everyone else.

This is a good point. I've seen lots of talk about saving "prime" seats for teams when their robot is on the field. How do we define what seats are the best? Personally, I'd rather watch from higher up than right by the field.

Gregor 06-05-2013 08:04

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1272650)
They always exclaim what good fortune it is that the seats at the bottom of the stands are readily available and gleefully sit there. Then they realizes that everyone crowds around the field and learn to sit up higher like everyone else.

Yep...

Koko Ed 06-05-2013 09:01

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1272664)
Yep...

Everyone who has never been to FLR before always learns to sit up higher.
We don't control the crowd around the field. Makes the joint louder and FLR rock. Especially during the elims.

pfreivald 06-05-2013 09:34

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux (Post 1272023)
But really, it's as easy as citing the manual and just sitting down in the seat.

At Championship in 2011, my brother, his wife, and I snuck off to sit and watch a couple of matches from up close--it was their first exposure to FIRST, and they'd driven six hours just to see it.

We moved someone's stuff in a couple of chairs and a woman came (literally) shrieking at us about how those seats were for her team. Joe looked at her and deadpanned, "Unless you're willing to commit assault, we're sitting here." She backed off, and we sat down. I've used that line twice more at FIRST events, and it's worked.

But in general it is a problem. The Black Friday scenario increases the chances that someone will get hurt, and I'm sure FIRST wants neither the injury nor the liability.

FrankJ 06-05-2013 09:58

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Maybe print a bunch of business with the rule about not saving seats & hand out to all the teams in the pits. Then when someone comes up & complains about sitting in "their" seats, you could just hand them a card.

akoscielski3 06-05-2013 10:10

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1272676)
Everyone who has never been to FLR before always learns to sit up higher.
We don't control the crowd around the field. Makes the joint louder and FLR rock. Especially during the elims.

Everyone standing in front of the field blocking over half of people's views was the worst part of FLR for me. I could only see disks being shot and a lot of people. Hated that.
Sure it made the teams get up and cheer but from experience you can do that in the stands.

Just saying

Coach Norm 06-05-2013 10:37

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1272357)
I fail to see the problem here. You want good seats, get there early. There should be staff in the venue during the mad rush that kick teams out of seats they are trying to occupy with flags, banners, pom poms, signs, whatever. That solves that problem. We had our entire team up extremely early (as did 3-4 others) in order to be one of the first teams in. All our mentors were up past midnight every night too. If you want good seats, that's what you've got to do.

The real problem is that it's a complete madhouse getting in and totally unsafe. Everyone has heard stories of students getting shoved, knocked down, hit, trampled, etc. One of our students may have fractured his foot on Saturday morning due to the mad rush when the doors opened.

This year security actually tried to enforce a line, up until about 6:30-6:45. Right around then the 1 person they had out there was completely overwhelmed by the massive quantities of people showing up and effectively ceased to have any authority. This resulted in the 4 teams who were there hours early getting in first, the people who showed up at 6:45 and line jumped getting in next, and the 20 teams who got there after the first 4 (and stood in line like they were supposed to) getting in about 200 people after they should have. This is completely unfair to those who followed the process but failed to be at the very front of the line.

Solution: more security outside, instead of inside.

Security likes to play the "guess the door" game. Stop being coy about which doors will open. Clearly label the doors that will be opening (and limit it to maybe 2-3 doors at the start) and it will be much easier to enforce the creation of a line. Teams will also have less opportunity to start sprinting once inside. If you got in front of the wrong doors 2 hours early you were just as screwed as showing up when the doors opened. Or teams (again) showed up at 6:45, stood in front of an empty doorway, and then that doorway opened when there had been no previous indication it would do so.

Stop counting down to the doors opening. This is incredibly dangerous as it actively encourages people to start shoving and running once the doors open.

I think some kind of coupon system could be wise. Barricade off the courtyard outside the doors, institute proper lines (maybe by division) and be there at 5:00-5:30 AM to distribute tickets to the first x people in line for maybe 2-3 "zones". When you get to your field, you have to show your tickets to go down in the seats. This wouldn't be terribly difficult to do and only needs to be enforced for the first few minutes. The teams who get there first get the seats they want and nobody needs to run because anyone who jumps them in line won't have the right "zone" tickets.

+1 this post and response.

JB987 06-05-2013 10:49

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Just a question that hasn't come up yet in this post...how absolute shall the adherence to the rule be? If we follow the letter of the rule, then a scout who runs to the rest room and is gone for only a couple of minutes is out of luck? Same would be true for anyone in the stands? There are teams like ours that have scouts (laptops) linked via ethernet or otherwise need proximity with the other scouts to exchange paper match data. Perhaps this is one of the strongest arguments for at least reserving seats for scouts?

Citrus Dad 07-05-2013 00:31

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JB987 (Post 1272695)
Just a question that hasn't come up yet in this post...how absolute shall the adherence to the rule be? If we follow the letter of the rule, then a scout who runs to the rest room and is gone for only a couple of minutes is out of luck? Same would be true for anyone in the stands? There are teams like ours that have scouts (laptops) linked via ethernet or otherwise need proximity with the other scouts to exchange paper match data. Perhaps this is one of the strongest arguments for at least reserving seats for scouts?

We had the same situation and a relatively small team.

Making the championships unpleasant by requiring those who stay up late working on a robot or scouting to then get up to save a seat (especially when they won't let you bring in food) is not a strong recruitment tool for mentors. We need to think about the whole experience and what everyone should be getting out of it. Making it even more grueling is not a solution.

Nathan Pell 07-05-2013 00:47

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
The Pink team won the Team Spirit award at championships as they did in 2012. The Pink team doesn't like to 'block people'. They always sit down when the matches start. They are cheering for every team every match - that is why they are standing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc S. (Post 1271091)
I think the GP card could go either way. Yeah your taking their seats that they are trying so hard to defend, but they are trying to save seats with almost no one there.

At SVR I talked to a rookie mentor from another team, and he mentioned to me how ungraciously professional he thought the pink team was for taking up half the stands in the center section of the stadium. "Their spirit people take up the same amount of room as the scouts from 20 other teams." he said. Its an interesting thought, 90% of their seats went to cheerers who loved to stand and block the view of people behind them, but they did get there first. I only mention the identity of this team because they ironically won the championship Gracious Professionalism award.

So it begs the question, what is more graciously professional? Is it, "we only need these higher quality seats for our scouts", or "they got their first so we should respect their right to take up as many seats as they can"?


EricH 07-05-2013 01:04

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JB987 (Post 1272695)
Just a question that hasn't come up yet in this post...how absolute shall the adherence to the rule be? If we follow the letter of the rule, then a scout who runs to the rest room and is gone for only a couple of minutes is out of luck? Same would be true for anyone in the stands? There are teams like ours that have scouts (laptops) linked via ethernet or otherwise need proximity with the other scouts to exchange paper match data. Perhaps this is one of the strongest arguments for at least reserving seats for scouts?

I think in most cases, if you are saving one seat for someone whose rear was in there for a while but had to run to the restroom or to some other point in the stands for a couple of minutes, or even scouting data to the pits, and you said something to the effect of "Yeah, my buddy Joe is due back from the restroom in a couple minutes and needs to sit here because he's scouting" then most people will be gracious about it. Especially if you point them to a nearby empty seat (say, a row up or down). Letter of the rule violation? Yeah. Spirit of the rule violation? I don't think so.

I think where most people have the issues is when small group takes up large block of seats and doesn't let anybody else sit there, not where one seat in a group of people opens up briefly and is saved for that sitter's imminent return.

Nathan Pell 07-05-2013 01:10

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
I walked over early this year on Saturday at 8:30am, and there were already 5 other teams in front of me. As mentioned before, they are the 'top' teams such as 254, 148, 118, etc.

At some regional events, I have even heard of teams camping out in line, kind of like getting in line to buy concert tickets.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan S. (Post 1272067)
What I meant by this is that we send a smaller group (say a dozen) students early (usually around 6am) to get in line and participate in the "race" so to speak, but the remainder of the team still arrives before the doors open. So there is a small group to stake out the ideal section, and when they find one, the entire team will be there to join them and sit there and get started on the day's activities. This allows the students to rotate duty in the early crew.


Tristan Lall 07-05-2013 01:33

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
What about a compromise: "your team may save n seats per m team representatives currently seated adjacently"?1

I think that in many venues, n = 1, m ≥ 3 would satisfy the people who are desperately hoarding the best seats in case a few more members of the scouting team show up. In the less-populated sections (e.g. upper bowl seating at the Championship, except at Einstein), n = 1, m ≥ 1 would be fine.

1 Yes, I know there are issues with overlapping groups and the definition of adjacency.

spydan 07-05-2013 23:43

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CENTURION (Post 1271120)
1306 is working on this :D

Anyone interested should check out this thread

We rolled out the CrowdScout system at the Wisconsin Regional, and in Curie Division this year, and it worked wonderfully, so we will definitely be continuing development of the system (streamlining data entry, making things easier for teams), and the organization around it (deciding on what data is needed, etc.)

Team 708 was thinking about making our scouting information publicly available. I am glad that someone has created something like this. I will try and see if our team would like to implement this! We, too get frustrated with the seat saving.We make sure to have people be using the seats if we are going to need them.

karomata 08-05-2013 08:02

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
The bottom line is that you can only control the action of yourself and those of your own team. If teams wish to not be graciously professional and wish to save seats even though they're not supposed to, theres nothing that others are able to do about it other than control their own actions. And we really don't need to complain to FIRST about the issue, I think FIRST already has enough to worry about. Teams will do as they wish, and instead of making an issue over such a minor thing, we could just rise above their level of constructive attitude and only worry about conducting ourselves graciously and professionaly. You can see the field from anywhere in any of the stands at any of the venues, the venues were built to work that way. If there simply aren't enough seats, then just communicate that with the team reserving seats. If they continue to refuse, then you should talk to your regional committee. But other than that we really shouldn't complain to anyone about it. To sum it up, I hate to use slang, but nothing really describes the situation like it is better than saying: haters gonna hate.

Koko Ed 08-05-2013 08:56

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by karomata (Post 1273273)
The bottom line is that you can only control the action of yourself and those of your own team. If teams wish to not be graciously professional and wish to save seats even though they're not supposed to, theres nothing that others are able to do about it other than control their own actions. And we really don't need to complain to FIRST about the issue, I think FIRST already has enough to worry about. Teams will do as they wish, and instead of making an issue over such a minor thing, we could just rise above their level of constructive attitude and only worry about conducting ourselves graciously and professionaly. You can see the field from anywhere in any of the stands at any of the venues, the venues were built to work that way. If there simply aren't enough seats, then just communicate that with the team reserving seats. If they continue to refuse, then you should talk to your regional committee. But other than that we really shouldn't complain to anyone about it. To sum it up, I hate to use slang, but nothing really describes the situation like it is better than saying: haters gonna hate.

But we've already left it up to the teams to police themselves. That's how we got to this mess in the first place. To just simply say: it's not that big a deal is to act as if it didn't happen when it's obviously a problem that needs to be dealt with. And if it requires FIRST to intervien personally to solve it then they should.

Marc S. 08-05-2013 10:19

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
If FIRST is going to intervene then here's a solution that I hope for.

10 seats be saved for each teams scouts. As a scout I know that 6 people is not enough. Ideally a team ha6 people scouting data, a data entering person, a team sheet organizer, and 2 strategic scouts. You may even be able to argue 11 or 12 seats cause having a mentor is useful too. Having two rows of 5 or 6 would be nice.

Also, wouldn't this be up to individual regional/distict coordinators?

Carolyn_Grace 08-05-2013 11:02

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Ahem....here is my modest proposal:

It is a melancholy object to those, who walk through these great competitions, or travel from event to event as volunteers, when they see the walkways and the stairways crowded with unfortunate students of the FIRST generation, attempting to view their team's matches and importuning other teams for just a little bit of their space.

These vagrant teams, instead of enjoying prime seating, are forced to employ all their time begging for their helpless students who, as they wander aimlessly around the venue, either turn seat-thieves for want of their own space, or leave their dear native team, to fight for seating among their opponent Red Alliance, or sell themselves to the event coordinators, hoping for at least a seat for one match.

I think it is agreed by all alliances, that this prodigious number of seatless-students at the heels of their mentors, and frequently of their sponsors, is in the present deplorable state of the FIRST kingdom, a very great additional grievance; and therefore whoever could find out a fair, cheap and easy method of providing these children sound and enjoyable seating among the elite, would deserve so well of the ChiefDelphi community, as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the FIRST nation.

I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection.

I have been assured by a very knowing Michigander of my acquaintance in FiM, that a young healthy student well geeked, is, after 6 weeks of build season, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether fried, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve as a side to roasted corn on the cob or cheap $2 nachos in a bag at IRI.

Those teams who are populated (as I must confess, growth is inevitable) may flea the carcass; the skin of which, artificially dressed, will make admirable handouts for other teams, and team-shirts for next year...

A Modest Proposal

Kimmeh 08-05-2013 11:07

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace (Post 1273308)
I have been assured by a very knowing Michigander of my acquaintance in FiM, that a young healthy student well geeked, is, after 6 weeks of build season, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether fried, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve as a side to roasted corn on the cob or cheap $2 nachos in a bag at IRI.

First off, I found this whole thing beautiful. I love A Modest Proposal.

But I do question if anyone is "delicious, nourishing, or wholesome" after the fare one eats for the six weeks of build season...

Taylor 08-05-2013 11:14

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace (Post 1273308)
Ahem....here is my modest proposal:

Save the neck for me, Clark.

(oops. We're not supposed to be saving things. Nevermind.)

Koko Ed 08-05-2013 11:16

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimmeh (Post 1273309)
First off, I found this whole thing beautiful. I love A Modest Proposal.

But I do question if anyone is "delicious, nourishing, or wholesome" after the fare one eats for the six weeks of build season...

They're full of pizza and Dew. That's hardly nourishing.

Carolyn_Grace 08-05-2013 11:31

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1273313)
They're full of pizza and Dew. That's hardly nourishing.

There's tomato sauce on the pizza.
Anyway, that extra weight that everyone puts on during build season will mean there's extra meat on the bones. Just need to balance it out with a few carrot sticks.

Citrus Dad 11-05-2013 17:49

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1273286)
But we've already left it up to the teams to police themselves. That's how we got to this mess in the first place. To just simply say: it's not that big a deal is to act as if it didn't happen when it's obviously a problem that needs to be dealt with. And if it requires FIRST to intervien personally to solve it then they should.

I agree. This is a classic "tragedy of the commons" problem that needs to be addressed by FIRST. Almost all of the environmental problems of our world have arisen from similar circumstances, and all require some sort of intervention to be solved.

Citrus Dad 11-05-2013 17:50

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc S. (Post 1273302)
If FIRST is going to intervene then here's a solution that I hope for.

10 seats be saved for each teams scouts. As a scout I know that 6 people is not enough. Ideally a team ha6 people scouting data, a data entering person, a team sheet organizer, and 2 strategic scouts. You may even be able to argue 11 or 12 seats cause having a mentor is useful too. Having two rows of 5 or 6 would be nice.

Also, wouldn't this be up to individual regional/distict coordinators?

I agree with this proposal.

efoote868 11-05-2013 19:33

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc S. (Post 1273302)
If FIRST is going to intervene then here's a solution that I hope for.

10 seats be saved for each teams scouts. As a scout I know that 6 people is not enough. Ideally a team ha6 people scouting data, a data entering person, a team sheet organizer, and 2 strategic scouts. You may even be able to argue 11 or 12 seats cause having a mentor is useful too. Having two rows of 5 or 6 would be nice.

Also, wouldn't this be up to individual regional/distict coordinators?

2 of the 10 you listed don't need a nice view of the field. Also I'm not quite sure what you mean by "strategic scouts," but if you have all 6 robots covered then surely you'll get all interactions on the field.

Mike Schreiber 12-05-2013 04:50

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
I find this entire topic almost laughable.

I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.

On a humorous note how about a "15 Minute Parking Section" meant for teams to just walk up watch their match and leave.

Social experiment: Section off a small, but easily accessible area in front of the field, with a sign that looks official saying "These seats are available to teams while their robot is playing on the field, please remain no longer than is appropriate." See what happens.

In all seriousness you should probably ask somebody in some sort of position of power before you try something like that, but I would like to see how trustworthy our fellow FIRSTers are.

Pendulum^-1 12-05-2013 10:16

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19 (Post 1274239)

Social experiment: Section off a small, but easily accessible area in front of the field, with a sign that looks official saying "These seats are available to teams while their robot is playing on the field, please remain no longer than is appropriate." See what happens.

In all seriousness you should probably ask somebody in some sort of position of power before you try something like that, but I would like to see how trustworthy our fellow FIRSTers are.

Looks like we are coming full circle. My earlier post (well hidden as one post among the 130 other posts) is nearly identical to this idea. Simple, straightforward in execution. Maybe several of us should petition our local regionals and/or our leading teams at our regionals to organize such an area, and see how people like it.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=52

The only thing I would add to the post: Cheering section people should stay seated during their match, so others can see the field.

Simple, simple, simple. Whatever we propose has to be nearly zero effort from the event staff.

Citrus Dad 12-05-2013 14:54

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19 (Post 1274239)
I find this entire topic almost laughable.

I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.

I suspect at the regional level that this can be left to the local committees. However, I think it could be a bigger issue if outside spectators show up in greater numbers. Isn't Kammen's aim to make this as visible as other sports?

The real issue is in St. Louis where the most motivated teams come together. And again, this is an important issue if Kammen truly wants to spread the popularity of this program. On the other hand, in my experience these types of issues are never addressed ahead of time until a true crisis arises, at least in part because many people dismiss its importance early on. So we'll see how this plays out--it doesn't mean that I and others need to sit back complacently simply because a solution isn't likely in the near term.

Citrus Dad 12-05-2013 14:58

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1274168)
2 of the 10 you listed don't need a nice view of the field. Also I'm not quite sure what you mean by "strategic scouts," but if you have all 6 robots covered then surely you'll get all interactions on the field.

Those two extra usually are needed to manage the scouting system on site--remember that WiFi is illegal in the venue and that the system either needs to be hardwired together or paper passed to a central person after every match. (I'm curious as to your alternative proposal for data management with only 6 people sitting together.) Also in our experience, 6 scouts can only follow a portion of what happens on the field. We had 2 additional strategic scouts and what they provided was the extra part that made our alliance selection strategy work so successfully in Curie. One additional point--the team needs to be able to rotate scouts--there's no way that anyone can pay attention straight through for hours without a break. 10 is a minimum.

Siri 12-05-2013 15:48

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad (Post 1274306)
Those two extra usually are needed to manage the scouting system on site--remember that WiFi is illegal in the venue and that the system either needs to be hardwired together or paper passed to a central person after every match. (I'm curious as to your alternative proposal for data management with only 6 people sitting together.) Also in our experience, 6 scouts can only follow a portion of what happens on the field. We had 2 additional strategic scouts and what they provided was the extra part that made our alliance selection strategy work so successfully in Curie. One additional point--the team needs to be able to rotate scouts--there's no way that anyone can pay attention straight through for hours without a break. 10 is a minimum.

I agree and we do the same, but do all 10 don't have to be in those seats at once if you're rotating them? We'd be fine with 8 seats where people could switch in and out.

efoote868 12-05-2013 17:19

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad (Post 1274306)
Those two extra usually are needed to manage the scouting system on site--remember that WiFi is illegal in the venue and that the system either needs to be hardwired together or paper passed to a central person after every match. (I'm curious as to your alternative proposal for data management with only 6 people sitting together.) Also in our experience, 6 scouts can only follow a portion of what happens on the field. We had 2 additional strategic scouts and what they provided was the extra part that made our alliance selection strategy work so successfully in Curie. One additional point--the team needs to be able to rotate scouts--there's no way that anyone can pay attention straight through for hours without a break. 10 is a minimum.

My suggestion is a block of no more than 6 reserved "prime" seats.

There is usually a 3-5 minute break between matches. Scouts can get their assignment for say, 6-8 matches, take their notes, then swap out with fresh scouts, deposit their notes at the central location (which doesn't need prime seating and typically will have lots of files / equipment with it, takes lots of room).

Plenty of time. Also, you don't need to watch every robot every match. You could watch one side the entire event, and you should get each robot at least 3-4 times. You could also pair up with another team to take notes, and you'd have a block of 12 eyes on the field. Use the extra 3 people to watch interactions.

jamierose 12-05-2013 23:50

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19 (Post 1274239)
I find this entire topic almost laughable.

I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.

On a humorous note how about a "15 Minute Parking Section" meant for teams to just walk up watch their match and leave.

Social experiment: Section off a small, but easily accessible area in front of the field, with a sign that looks official saying "These seats are available to teams while their robot is playing on the field, please remain no longer than is appropriate." See what happens.

In all seriousness you should probably ask somebody in some sort of position of power before you try something like that, but I would like to see how trustworthy our fellow FIRSTers are.

There was a section like that at BAE Granite State Regional and it actually worked pretty much perfectly. I don't know how well it would work at champs, though.

SarahBeth 13-05-2013 11:11

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamierose (Post 1274506)
There was a section like that at BAE Granite State Regional and it actually worked pretty much perfectly. I don't know how well it would work at champs, though.

There was also a section like this in Lewiston, it was standing room on the floor by the field and teams who's teams were on the field could go down and cheer. It worked really well.

Brandon Holley 13-05-2013 11:45

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19 (Post 1274239)
I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.


Cory made a great post a couple pages back. This topic may seem ridiculous, but people have been seriously hurt in the mad rush for seats at Championship (and I'm sure other events as well). IMO, something needs to be done about the queue for seating. I linked to Cory's post because he explains the situation perfectly. It basically comes down to total chaos and teams having to take their OWN measures to protect themselves from being trampled.

If you haven't experienced being right at the doors when they open in St. Louis, it may seem trivial, but in my experiences is needlessly chaotic and dangerous.

-Brando

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1272357)
I fail to see the problem here. You want good seats, get there early. There should be staff in the venue during the mad rush that kick teams out of seats they are trying to occupy with flags, banners, pom poms, signs, whatever. That solves that problem. We had our entire team up extremely early (as did 3-4 others) in order to be one of the first teams in. All our mentors were up past midnight every night too. If you want good seats, that's what you've got to do.

The real problem is that it's a complete madhouse getting in and totally unsafe. Everyone has heard stories of students getting shoved, knocked down, hit, trampled, etc. One of our students may have fractured his foot on Saturday morning due to the mad rush when the doors opened.

This year security actually tried to enforce a line, up until about 6:30-6:45. Right around then the 1 person they had out there was completely overwhelmed by the massive quantities of people showing up and effectively ceased to have any authority. This resulted in the 4 teams who were there hours early getting in first, the people who showed up at 6:45 and line jumped getting in next, and the 20 teams who got there after the first 4 (and stood in line like they were supposed to) getting in about 200 people after they should have. This is completely unfair to those who followed the process but failed to be at the very front of the line.

Solution: more security outside, instead of inside.

Security likes to play the "guess the door" game. Stop being coy about which doors will open. Clearly label the doors that will be opening (and limit it to maybe 2-3 doors at the start) and it will be much easier to enforce the creation of a line. Teams will also have less opportunity to start sprinting once inside. If you got in front of the wrong doors 2 hours early you were just as screwed as showing up when the doors opened. Or teams (again) showed up at 6:45, stood in front of an empty doorway, and then that doorway opened when there had been no previous indication it would do so.

Stop counting down to the doors opening. This is incredibly dangerous as it actively encourages people to start shoving and running once the doors open.


I think some kind of coupon system could be wise. Barricade off the courtyard outside the doors, institute proper lines (maybe by division) and be there at 5:00-5:30 AM to distribute tickets to the first x people in line for maybe 2-3 "zones". When you get to your field, you have to show your tickets to go down in the seats. This wouldn't be terribly difficult to do and only needs to be enforced for the first few minutes. The teams who get there first get the seats they want and nobody needs to run because anyone who jumps them in line won't have the right "zone" tickets.

That still adds complexity to a situation that just needs order outside the doors, though. After 20 years you'd think FIRST could figure out how to make people form a proper queue. If they could do that and have fewer entrances for the first few minutes then everything would get a lot better.



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