Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

I'd like FIRST to create a lottery. Then assign seating as follows:

The best section of seating is reserved for VIP, such as parents with children under 10, those that aren't affiliated with a team (yet), corporate sponsors etc.

The next section of seating is divided up into blocks of 6 seats. Each day at competition, teams are randomly assigned a block of seating along with their 6 passes. Teams are then left to decided how they use their 6 seats, however they see fit. If they want the people in the pits to have them that's fine; if they want their scouts to use them that's also fine.

The last section of seating will either be randomly assigned in blocks of 25, or free for all seating depending on the venue. This sort of system should cut down on "we're saving this seat for xyz," because if xyz is that important, they'll get one of the better reserved seats.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

I agree that this touches on the worst issue of seating. Lunch time on Saturday is where you see the worst of this. The majority of a a team is out eating lunch (esp. if they are not in elims) and a few team members (or those returning early) try to hold all the seats.

Now here come the public that have never seen an FRC match before. They are confronted with what appears to be lots of empty seats with coats spread out, people telling them this is reserved, so if they stay, they end up in the cheap seats. There is no need for scouting on Saturday afternoon, and FIRST is about spreading the message and inspiring others so why not honor the public with the best seats?

What if FIRST made it a practice to reserve excellent seating for the general public starting shortly after Alliance selection? Some of the public will have team connections and may wish to sit near their teams, others just read the local paper and saw there was a free robotics competition and have no team affiliation. I'm not sure how many unaffiliated public folks typically show up at a regional, I'm sure that varies widely based on many factors. -- They may not need more than 200 seats or so, and teams wouldn't be pushed back very far.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

I think this is a great idea! At champs this year, they reserved an entire section for volunteers right at half field on Einstein, which was a great move. Many of the volunteers spend their entire time in the pits working with teams, and the only matches they ever see are Einstein. Now we just need to do something similar for people with no team affiliation...

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

After a team's match is over, they can go where ever they want to go. As most of my team spends nearly all of our time in the pit area, either working on our robot or talking to other pit crews, we would not occupy other seats in the arena. One of the prime benefits for ALL teams is to have a decent seat to go to when your team is on the field.

The purpose of the cheering section would be to make optimal use of prime seats for Friday and Saturday AM. I challenge the concept that the optimal use of prime seating on Friday and Saturday AM is to act as a laundry repository for large teams with the resources and/or perceived requirement to reserve vast tracts of prime real estate for the Saturday eliminations and/or Friday evening awards.

I agree that something should also be done to help out the general public. As the situation stands right now, whenever I do invite friends to the event, I feel obliged (and somewhat embarassed) to explain the seating situation in advance. Needless to say, it probably discourages some from attending.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

Honestly, I think they should have a quick segment at kickoff about this, so no team can play a "but we didn't know" card, and then it should be the responsibility of the parents and mentors to keep students busy at competition and out of the stands, so that interested parents or sponsors can actually see the field.
This was far less an issue at the St. Louis Regional, as we have enough space for all the teams. It could be better, but Championship was terrible.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

I am one of the Volunteers who doesn't get to watch a match until Einstein. There were members of the public sitting with us in section 127.
It is not a new concept; I remember a section being reserved for Volunteers/VIPs in Atlanta also.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

So I think the big issue here is that teams want all of there members to sit together in one area for the entirety of the competition.
Several people suggested (and they repeated this over and over and over again at championships) that you move in for your match and then leave afterwards.
But here's the issue: I don't know how many people you bring to your competitions but we bring our whole team. And I haven't seen any team bring only a pit crew and drive team (who are the people that can leave after their match). We also don't want our entire team wandering around the event between matches.
However we are a small team (~20 people plus a few family and friends that tag along at the events) so when you suggest that we separate 6 people or so to a separate section for scouting that's almost/more than half of the people that we have sitting in the stands at one time. Now I am down in the pit or on the field for the competition and I'm constantly back and forth from the pits to the stands (getting scouting information, swapping out people in the pits, getting my lunch, etc.) and if there isn't a designated area where I can find my team at all times then that just adds stress to an already stressful situation.
So as I said before: the issue here is that teams want all their members to sit together for the entirety of the competition.
I'm certainly not going to settle for anything less than that.

Okay so now that I've bored you all with my irritation that FIRST doesn't allow the saving of seats I will present my solution.
I think that FIRST should reserve parts of the stands for certain teams. FIRST has access to how many people are on your team (also, registering how many people will be with you at the competition could be a part of registering up for an event) so they could easily decide how many seats your team will need. They can also reserve several decently sized sections for spectators who are not affiliated with a team. The sad truth is that there are very few people who watch events who are not affiliated with a team in some way so this system wouldn't inconvenience anyone not with a team.
Also if they want to reserve a section (with a very good view of the field) for scouters then they can do that as well.
So that's my opinion.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

It's ok, not polite, to save seats at smaller regionals. In 2011 at the st louis regional, there were under 30 teams, and the venue has held 45+ teams the past two years. So it was roomy :D but at internationals, 100 teams in a space that holds maybe 60 at most. I understand if your team has 30-40 members while others have <20, but that still doesnt give you a right to reserve entire sections....

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

Oh come on guys, does this really need to be addressed?

Why not have your FULL team arrive earlier than the seat takers and sit in the seats that you want? Or why not hold your ground when someone tells you that this seat is reserved? Yes, you may get into an argument - but it is clearly stated in the rules that seats are not allowed to be saved. They can choose to sit in between the full team if they'd like, but generally people don't like doing that. I've been on both sides of the argument enough times to realize that the "reserver" eventually loses.

The problem with trying to change the culture of saving seats is that more teams with more students will show up earlier and try to race into the building, creating an even bigger "Black Friday Sale" scenario, which is apparently the exact opposite of what you want.

Another thing that adds to the problem is that teams can choose to sit in the "reserved" seats, but - like the "reservers" - want to sit together as a team. What this means is that if people are mad that teams are saving seats in sections, it's because it doesn't let their team sit in a section. That's some backwards logic.

Additionally it's the kids that "lose" the race that make such a big fuss about the teams that win it. In most cases, teams only send a skeleton crew to get seats - which means that the ones who lose have no right in being mad that other teams got their first. If their teams gets there before the "reservers" team gets there - then by all means, take the reserved seats! What's stopped people from doing that? Oh, right, their team doesn't get there before the "reservers" team...

What's another 30 minutes (at a regional) in the scheme of things? Kids spend longer than that on their hair...or dressing up in bad costumes...What's the problem with taking a quick nap in the stands before ceremonies start? What do the teams that get the best seats do? Send an early crew to stand at the front of the line, then send the rest of the team earlier to join them. 1114, 2056, 254, 148, and more ALL DO THIS - You want to be the best? Do as they do.

This problem stems from laziness and lack of courage to stand up to someone who is breaking the rules. The arguments are usually very passive aggressive, and even when there is a disagreement both sides see it differently. (I've been the victim of an alleged debacle with an older woman for being in "my section". The lady further went on to contact my team and tell them how unimpressed she was of my behavior. Although not true it taught me a few things - namely that there are two sides to every story.)

Moral of the Story: If you're unhappy about something, change it. Send the full team earlier...

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

The thing with this system is that not every team wants to scouts, cares to scout, or thinks they need to scout. Scouting is a lot of work. While I do think that cooperative scouting can be great (as evidenced by Team 20's collab scouting at our regionals and at champs), I don't know if every team should be involved.

If every team has the same scouting data, everyone knows who the best robots to pick are, and it gets rid of the competitive edge you get by scouting.

And not every team is looking for that competitive edge.

I think scouting collaboratively is a good thing, but sharing the information with everyone removes the "profit" incentive from the equation that is the edge meant to allow your team to perform better than others in elimination rounds.

These are just my thoughts- not necessarily all of Team 20's, just mine.
Take them for what they are.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

Most every other sporting event in America has assigned seats on your ticket. Seems fairly simple to implement with a few volunteer "ushers". In order to accommodate others, there could be a large "bleacher" section for "general admission" towards the back or sides. (Lawn seating, anyone?)

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

Those are certainly some fair points. And we also realize that getting every single team at a regional to collaborate is next to impossible, plenty of teams are going to prefer their own scouting system.

About teams not wanting to scout though: That's the main purpose of CrowdScout, to distribute workload. At the WI regional, the total cumulative man-hours spent scouting is about 64,125 (And that's assuming that there are 10 teams who don't bother to scout) Every team that scouts spends roughly 1282 man-hours per regional on scouting. That's a heck of a lot of redundant work.

Even with only one or two teams on board, the scouting burden on those teams goes down drastically. Suddenly, you only need three scouters, or two, or even just one per team.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

Some thoughts:

* Seating was a major issue at Nationals for all the reasons previously outlined. It is crazy that somebody can camp out all weekend in a "prime" viewing location, watching every single match from an ideal vantage, when some kids completely miss some of their team's matches - simply because they did not bully (yes, bully) their way to the ideal seats... Something really should be done.

* Collaborative scouting: With a large team, we are always looking for jobs for all our kids to do. Moreover, we have created a couple of formal leadership positions around scouting. We'd rather do most of our work internally so as to allow our students to do this.

* Seats reserved for teh public: Definitely.

Two possible solutions:
* Assign seats. However, assign the same set of seats to two different teams, only giving them enough for one team. Let the two teams work it out such that everybody can watch their teams matches. Coordinating with a "partner" team is much easier than with various other teams.

* We already have five fields set up for play. There should be room for a sixth (allowing for more qualificaiton matches)... However, instead of designating one field as teh "Newton" field, simply number them 1-6. Teams would have scheduled matches on all six fields. This way, teams would not be reasonably able to camp out at one spot all weekend. This would naturally create enough movement in the stands that there woudl always be open seats for gropus of people.


Finally, the ferocity with which folks will "save" seats is really upsetting. My most frustrating moment came at the Seattle regional. Our team was hosting 100 4th graders for about two hours on Friday - about one hour of which was to be in the stands watching the competition. We were given leave (by the tournament directors) to hold on to about 150 seats for that one hour so that some of our students coudl sit with the younger kids. As other teams came to sit in that area, we spoke with them about it and simply asked that they allow the smaller kids sit in that area during the one hour they would be present. They moved in and, when the time came, most refused to allow the small kids somewhere to sit. Those who refused were a variety of mentors, FRC teams and families. They even refused to give up empty seats. Worse, the fire marshall was already upset at the number of folks standing in the aisles and was kicking folks out of the stands who could not find seats. It was brutal having to talke 10-year-olds out of the stands and try to find them somewhere to stand alongside the field in a near mosh-pit. The $@#$@#$@#$@# thing about it, is that one team told me that they were trying to win the spirit award and if they were not together cheering, the judges would not know how much spirit they had.

Seeing similar struggles at Nationals and reading justifcations here, I am convinced that a few rules and announcements is not going to change this aspect of our culture. Either we are all going to have to pay more and have much larger venues so that there is never a shortage of seats, or we are all going to have to bring the change to our teams.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

Sorry, but that's not the solution. We have a problem of "tragedy of the commons" or "the rule of capture". Both are recognized by economists as a systemic failure that creates significant problems that must be addressed. Requiring early arrival, posting guards, etc. are all resource drains during a competition that is already grueling, especially for smaller teams or teams without the resources to bring their full team. Why do we want to drive off smaller, less wealthy teams? The point of FIRST is to spread the message about the importance of STEM education and the role of robotics competition in enhancing that.

A better solution is to 1) consider seat allocation formulas--as suggested elsewhere, FIRST knows how many are registered 2) distinguish seating between those that are necessary for team functioning, i.e., scouting and those that are not i.e., spirit. The latter group should be placed in the upper tiers to open up seating for 1) scouts and 2) the public on the last day. In addition, FIRST might consider moving the non-qualified teams into the upper seats during the elimination rounds.

This year, we were squeezed between two teams in the spirit competition for a day, and it made our scouting more difficult. The next day was better, but two other large teams still spilled into our small area. Let's try to make this more pleasant and not a battle for seating space every day.

One other note--some of us are still preparing to support our team after the competition day is over. I went to bed well after midnight both nights working on scouting and strategy. Requiring me and others working with me to get there by 7 am just to save a seat fails to recognize the importance of contributions being made by all team members.

Re: Saving Seats Epidemic
 

I agree with MrJohnston's points, especially about the ABSOLUTE need to accommodate younger students at the arena.

If this is what it takes to win the spirit award, then FIRST needs to change the spirit award. This attitude is totally counterproductive.