Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

One team's burnout is another teams normal. There is no option that perfectly suits everyone's needs.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

We'd probably use it 6 hours each weekend day. No practice bot, but probably some subsystem analogs. To each their own.


67 built a 30 point climbing FCS on a schedule some teams use in off-season. If you think those <=20 hours spread over 2 months will make a net positive impact on your team, it's there. Otherwise, we're probably not falling too much farther behind.


Glad to see this has come full-circle back to the unbagged sessions. I think it's really a very elegant way to achieve a lot of the floor-raising aims we have here. So who's up for an on-season scrimmage? ;)

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

No, and please do not put words in my mouth. I'll rephrase.

On one hand, my team would operate fine under Ed's proposal. We would not choose to work 7 days per week (more like 3-4 after bag, as we do now).

On the other hand, some people aren't going to like the fact that it's possible to unbag the robot every day with 9 hrs/week and 1 hour increments. Therefore, maybe two hour increments would be better since that would not allow a 7 day schedule.

Edit: Sorry, my mistake. My addled mind thought you were quoting me.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

I think he was talking to me and that was definitely what I was suggesting. We work with our practice bot 7 days a week, I would like to do the same with the competition robot.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

If you include the ability for teams to work on their robot throughout competition season, then a withholding allowance of additional fabricated parts is necessary. Otherwise you'd have to put everything onto your robot after the 9 hours is up for bagging and have no additional time to tweak that part if you wanted to the night before you leave for the event. For fairness sake, a withholding allowance of some kind makes more sense for that scenario than it even does now.

I will echo bduddy's comment that this really doesn't have anything to do with mentor burnout and for some teams (read: the team I mentor) could make it worse. Not saying it will, but it can.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

Good point about the withholding allowance. But I'd change the nature of how we regulate robot changes altogether. Right now, you could swap out 30 pounds of shop-built/assembled mechanisms, plus COTS parts, plus event-built parts, at every event. (Bumpers are not included in the 30 lbs.) (Theoretically, you could change out the whole robot in 4 events.... practically impossible, for sure.)

I recommend that the new bag rules limit the total of the items added to the robot since the robot was initially bagged. If the total changes (by weight and/or cost) were limited, a withholding allowance, as we know it now, would be irrelevant and unnecessary. Bring as many spare parts/improved parts as you wanted to the event. Make the changes in the pits. But the overall changes to the robot would have to be within the limit in the rules.

As far as burnout is concerned, personally, a factor in burnout is the frustration of having to do busy work (build robot two and/or test stands) to work around the bag restrictions. For me, less frustration == less burnout. If the students are working with the robot, practicing, testing, getting enthused, I feel much better. The burnout is less to do with time than frustration, for me. And a big factor in this proposal has to do with getting marginal teams better able to achieve the game objectives. The proposal put forward by Ike and modified by Ed preserves the imperative of getting things done by the end of build season, yet allows teams to get their designs better refined to get things done on the field, without having to do multiple events.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

This is such a hard thing for me to decide on. I love the challenge of the six week build season and I learn so much real life engineering skills from this. Though it also puts a massive strain on my team and really makes it hard for us to compete against better funded teams with more mentors and money. Our team does not have near the amount of funding or people to build a practice bot and this makes it hard to compete against teams that do. Then again that is part of FIRST and that is what has driven me to look into fundraisers and recruitment that way we may one day become an "ELITE" team. Bottom line though FIRST is just way to expensive. FIRST for sure needs to do something about cost that way lower funded teams can be more competitive. Though again this is what drives under funded teams to do fundraising. I think that instead of having a year round build season or a six week build season FIRST should have a twelve week build season! This would allow more time to build for the lower funded teams; though honestly I think we will always feel the need for more time. Tough Choices :ahh:

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

You can sign me up for Ed/Ike's proposals. I've been campaigning a similar type of proposal for a while now to friends in FIRST.

I think (in this theoretical world we've started debating in) this a fair compromise for teams who say additional access will less then load, as well as teams who say any more will push them over the edge.

-Brando

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

Lots of good points, let me add a different tangent

Elite teams are in the upper 5%. In the early days that was 10 teams, now to be in the top 5%, you are the upper 170 teams.

Elite teams don't work harder, they think harder. Karthik tells FRC that year after year after year. FRC robot construction is THINK, PLAN, BUILD, COMPETE. I watch Team 1640 from my VEX loft (we are on the second floor). They have gone from a bottom 10% team (no formal design, no CAD, nearest 1/2" on construction, minimal scouting, etc) to a top team (pre-kickoff simulation, kickoff with a plan (read the rules!, think about design, etc), nothing built that's not in CAD, nearest 0.001 construction (Yay Ben!), scouting team, checklists, etc.) They build a second robot (called Duex) because if you CAD it, you can build 2 with minimal second effort. And frankly that rocks since there are roboteers that may not work on Prime, but do work on Duex) its a win for lots of people.

People have issues. Mentors have issues. My name is Foster, I'm a 100%holic. Things that I'm passionate about I put 100% effort in. If you are not all in why do it. Force me onto a 1 week break, fine, I'll work on stuff at home. It's not a conscious choice "Hey lets go burn out over here", but it's who I am. Others have learned other methods and they now eat, drink water, don't fall asleep on the drill press table, etc. You are not going to change me by a small rule change.

FRC isn't about the robot. Look at HOF. Look at the resume. We did x, y, z, q, p, t and oh yea we built a nice robot. I'm convinced you can be a Chairman's award winner and not build a robot. I'm convinced Woody and Dean went "Our goals are to .... whats the cheese?" "Yea, Build a robot is the cheese."

Too late to make a long post short:

FRC, VEX, and all the other programs are about inspiration and some really core life skills. I want that. Mentors that are going to burn out are going to burn out. I can only fix that by making them work smarter not harder. The champion / elite teams have figured that out.

So the rule change I propose is: "If you are a regional winner in a year then in the next year you must work with a rookie team. At least 50% of your student roboteer and mentor time from last season must be spent on the efforts of the rookie team. " Finances are hard, so that's not part of this.

Pick up the bottom. Mentors will cope, roboteers will cope. Be the start of a new vanguard of teams.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

Every area within 50 miles of us is already saturated with teams. What would we do for a rookie there?

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

Rookies aren't the only ones that need help. 27 and 254 are apparently in the same boat, as are hundreds of others.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

This.

And this.

And this. And all the other stuff. Watch out FRC, VEX Mentor of the Year is in Adage Mode.


Adam, it's true. We track down rookies (and are available remotely), but often times the teams we help aren't actually rookies, just people that would like a little help. Maybe lower-resourced, maybe new or less experienced mentors, maybe just a lot of underclassmen...this year we had a couple good teams that just couldn't work it out alone this time, specifically that wanted a pyramid. I was almost as proud watching them climb as I was us!

Even collaborating with another mid-level team can bring us both up and strengthen the whole community.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

Happy problem to solve!

So the rule change I propose is: "If you are a regional winner in a year then in the next year you must work with a rookie team or the lowest ranked team in your 15 mile radius. At least 50% of your student roboteer and mentor time from last season must be spent on the efforts of the rookie team. " Finances are hard, so that's not part of this.

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

What about those of us that don't have any other schools in a 15-mile radius? :)

Re: The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'
 

Skype. ;)