Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I was wondering what the rules were about being an official member of a FRC team.
I'm currently a Senior at my high school and I'm taking a gap year next year so I won't be heading to college until after that. Am I still eligible to be a student member or would I have to be a mentor? I won't have started college, but I also will have graduated from my school already.

It seems as if I would be considered a student if I wanted to because I would still be "pre-college". Would I be able to take a leadership position on the team?

Does anybody know the actual FIRST rules for this?
I need to know quickly. Thanks.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

You must be considered enrolled in highschool to be on a team. From my understanding, you will not be eligible as a student team member.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

To be part of the team? No restrictions.
To be part of the drive team? Probably not.
Yes, you're pre-college, but you're no longer a student.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

There is nothing to say having a mentor taking a leadership role is a bad thing. Leaders are those whom inspire people, a good mentor inspires students.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I'd say no. A 60 year old man that went to work immediately after high school and never attended college couldn't be considered a team member, even though he's still pre-college.
Reductio Ad Absurdum actually works some times...

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I don't think "student" implies "student in school," but rather "student on team."

You're obviously pre-college, but whether or not you're a student or a mentor is a decision that you and your team are free to make. I don't see any FIRST-imposed restrictions.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

countries besides the USA can have 5 years of high school. Some of my friends had this option in Ontario and took the extra year. Its getting pretty rare now to see that in Ontario. I think some of my cousins in Quebec are doing this but I forget.

I have not lived in Canada for a while, so I don't know the current systems.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Well, cant American students technically have 6 years of eligibility if they attend a Junior/Senior High School?

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Once you sign on with the X-Cats you are an X-Cat but you have to earn your right to go to the competitions.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

If you graduated high school, you are no longer a student. I expect the "pre college" thing is to cover the odd situation if your high school ends before the FRC season ends. All students have to reregister with First every year. As a side thing because of GA law, you have to be a registered student at Walton to be on our team. Other states may well have different laws. I poked around TIMS & the First web site, but did not see a definitive answer. Anyway in my unofficial judgment, you should register as a mentor since you would no longer be a student.

The First web site does describe FRC as a program for 9-12 grades ages 14-18.

You should contact First directly if you want their answer.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

In Ontario, 5 years of high school through grade 13 was standard until some point in the 1980s. Then it was changed to 4 years through grade 12 for everyone + 1 year of OAC (Ontario academic credit) for university-bound students only. In 2003, the grade 12 class (which had been using a different, updated curriculum for the last few years) graduated alongside the last OAC class. At the time, Ontario was the last jurisdiction in the U.S. or Canada to have a 5th year of high school.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Not necessarily. In Ontario students frequently come back for a "victory lap" or as a "super senior" after they have officially graduated and received their diploma. Usually it's because they want to improve a course mark or pick up some extra credits.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

What about the Boy Scout, Girl Scout and home school teams. Aren't they considered school aged (13-18) and necessarily students?

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

The only positions FIRST mandates go to students are the drive team. So if you do anything other than the drive team, you are automatically fine - it's up to your team, not FRC.

I believe in your case, you are still a pre-college student and could be the driver, but you'd have to ask FIRST to be sure.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I don't know that FIRST would consider you a student member, but as far as I'm aware, FIRST doesn't have any rules about team leadership. If your team is alright with you being in a leadership position, I don't see why you couldn't be.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Is the option for the grade 13 still around in Ontario?

I just realized I had quebec's CEGEP backwards. In Quebec, you graduate in grade 11 and go to through CEGEP before going to university. How does this work for FIRST teams in Quebec?

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

It's not called grade 13 anymore; it's just more grade 12. I'm not sure exactly how that's treated on the student's academic record, or when the diploma is issued (for a student who has enough credits, but doesn't have the right courses or marks for university yet).

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Yeah I think my friends said they got their diploma but wanted to improve their marks and take a few other classes. So their transcript was updated. Um I think got their diploma in 2004 cause I graduated in 2005.

I graduated from a California high school. I recall getting a notice that I completed all my credits early, I could have graduated a year early but that is not a boast since practically all university bound students have enough credits to graduate a year early. You only need like 2 years of science, 2 years of math. The only thing that took 4 years was english and social studies. So if you took a English and a history class during the summer you could finish a year early. I had a friend who did graduate a year early so he could go to West Point. i guess he was impatient.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Students can take up to 4 additional credits (34 credits total) in their victory lap. They are treated exactly like any other course.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Ontario students require 30 credits to graduate and can take as many more as they wish. As of Sep 2013 and with some exceptions, the 35th and beyond means the board will receive reduced funding from the Ministry of Education. They will be funded at the continuing education rate. Students will not have to pay to take additional courses. http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/students/faqs.html

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Some universities give priority to applicants who did not repeat a course. University of Toronto does that, but most other universities don't (that I've looked at).

Diplomas are issued whenever a student has completed all courses required for an Ontario Secondary School Diploma, along with other rules. This means that a student could go into their 5th year with a diploma, or not if they take a required course in their 5th year (4U English for example). Other than that, a student taking a 5th year is treated like any other student with the same amount of credits, although they're not allowed to join any extra curricular activity without taking 4 courses that year (which includes robotics for most schools).

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

This is an interesting discussion. In MN, juniors and seniors can take college classes for college and high school credit. Several of us on the team do this, and some of the mentors and other members joke that we ought to register as mentors because we're not "pre-college age" if we do this. ;) The catch is that we're still technically enrolled at our high school, just not for any classes (except for those of us that only do this part-time).

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I had a similar question once... I originally read the rule as pre-(college student), but I believe the intended reading is (pre-college) student. (Aren't parentheses useful?). The age is irrelevant, though; if a 60-year old who never graduated high school goes back, he or she could be the driver. Also, there's no minimum age, I've seen a couple teams with middle school-aged members and drivers (although get too young, and there might be safety concerns...)

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

This is a very interesting discussion - Our school district has one "early college" high school, and those who attend this program fully will not graduate after four years, but rather after five...they will simultaneously receive their high school diploma and an associates degree. Our lead programmer attends this school, and we have interpreted his eligibility to end after this, his "traditional senior year." A second interpretation we have considered is that he will "age out" of student membership when he turns 19 next fall.

I really wish FIRST would make a definitive statement on this topic. It could make a significant difference to the way we, and obviously other teams, administer their program...and there is a considerable amount of "gray area" with the variety of school programs and with the teams who are unaffiliated with a specific school.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Copy/paste from USFIRST.ORG:

FIRST® Robotics Competition (FRC®) Grades 9-12 (ages 14-18)
:)

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

This thread makes me want to start a team full of old people pursuing their GED.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Can I ignore my high school, undergrad, and grad degrees and go after a GED just so I can be on a FIRST team? :p

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I think you're already on a team. =P You'd like to be a STUDENT on a FIRST team. :p

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

This.
There are no prerequisites for anyone to be on a team. Drive team, yes. But team member? All vertebrates welcome.
As far as team role - well, it seems most are set up as Students or Mentors. If you're not a Student, you're a Mentor. Still a valuable and valued member of the team. But at an event, you can't touch the sticks. Other than that, it's all semantics.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I have had friends and students that graduated at age 17 and others who turned 19 in their last semester of grade 12.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I am curious about this GA law you mention. What law regulates membership or participation on a FIRST team? I know that both teams I have been associated with (both in Georgia) accepted anyone, whether a student at that school or not. Are we breaking the law?

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

While at Worlds I spoke with some people from FIRST about age limits. From what I was told the lower age is considered a "soft" limit while the upper age is a "hard" limit. I would think the only exception would be a high school student who was held back a year and thus would be 19 at graduation. I believe that is the only exception to the 18 year old hard limit for FRC.

The way I was explained "soft" lower age limit is that if you have someone who is in advanced classes, and is in 8th grade, or if someone will be turning 14 during the season, then that student would be allowed to join. At least that is what several different FIRST people have told me.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

Were they talking about drivers or team members? A team member can be anyone of any age. FIRST explicitly does not dictate team structure, only the ages of the drivers. A team could be all engineers with three students to form the drive team.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

If they would like either age limit to be treated as a rule, they might want to put them in the rules... and I'm not sure that's true, as I know there are FRC teams out there with 7th-graders.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

I resisted the urge to jump right into this thread when it started. I'm glad I did, because others have pretty much said what I would have said about the legalities and semantics of being or not being a "student".

I'm posting now to ask the OP to consider the premise behind their original question. That being, the desire to remain a participant on your high school team after you have graduated. I would encourage you to read through the thread about transitioning from being a student to being a mentor. The general advice from those with experience is that you need to separate yourself from your former team, take at least a few years away from FIRST, and consider returning as mentor when you have your degree.

I understand your desire to continue to participate on your team. The fact that you want to is a credit to FIRST, in that the program has made STEM enjoyable for you. You are exactly what FIRST aims to produce, high school graduates who intend to pursue careers in STEM fields. But, remaining on your high school team as a "student" after you have graduated, especially in a leadership position on the team, isn't fair to the other students on the team. They have put in their time, growing into those positions. It's time to allow them to move up.

I'm going to try to phrase this in as kind a way as I can. The fact that this isn't immediately obvious to you is a sign that you aren't ready to transition to being a mentor, either. Being a student on a FIRST team is about being all you are capable of. Being a mentor is about using your industry experience and life experience to help the kids be all they can be. So, follow the good advise given on the thread I referenced and take a few years to get your degree and gain some industry and life experience. Then return to FIRST and be a fantastic mentor. But, for now, it's time to let go and move on to the next phase of your life.

Re: Eligibility to be considered a team member
 

While true (and a very good way to take this thread), I'd venture that it is legitimately dependent on the individual's reason behind the gap year. For instance, we've had students graduate at 16 and 17 (home schooled) and take gap years before college.

They chose to move on from the team for unrelated reasons, but I doubt we would have begrudged a 16-year-old another year on the team, even if she did have to be labeled a "mentor" and thus not eligible to drive. I'm not sure how I feel about that limitation, but don't see a reason that anyone this young should be effectively "kicked out" of their experience as a FIRST student simply because they can graduate early.


I can envision a few other potential reasons to continue acting as a student, though some a perhaps more controversial than a situation in which you're ending your student tenure "early".

As for driving, I'd agree with others that the legal answer is likely no, but you could check with FIRST. In terms of behaving as a student, I'd say it's something best discussed with your mentors.