Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Several weeks ago it was officially announced that FIRST WA and Oregon FIRST will be working together to create a new District system for the 2014 competition season. Tonight at 8pm PDT, there was a webinar about the new district model.


*Note: Everything from the webinar and the notes below are subject to change.

My Webinar Notes:

-Moving to the district system will reduce costs for the teams and reduce the professional overhead.
-It will also increase playing time for the teams and improve the quality of the FIRST experience for all teams.
-FIRST HQ has asked both the PNW and NE FIRST to move to districts for the 2014 year
-The district system has invited, but not mandated that teams in Idaho and Montana join (currently a total of 21 teams).
-USFIRST’s goal is for the entire country to be in a district model by 2017, we’d like to be one of the leaders, along with FiM and MAR.
-The PNW Championship is likely to be a week 7 event (April 9-12, 2014), hosted at the Rose Coliseum (Current home of the Autodesk Oregon Regional).
-World champs: (April 23-26, 2014)
-Washington and Oregon had 156 active teams in 2013 and is projecting growth to 185-200 teams in the 2014 season.
-There is likely to be 10-12 district events (depending on size). The current projection is 10 districts, 2 each week.
-The tentative location breakdown: 5 in the Puget Sound, 1 in Central Washington, 1 in Spokane, 3 in Portland.
-Each event will host 32-40 teams.
-Districts will have similar Friday and Saturday schedules to a regional, but Thursday will be different. Thursday will be from 5pm-10pm. Inspections and 1-2 practice matches will occur.
-Teams will get 6 hours of unbag time during each week they will be competing (similar to FiM and MAR).
-Approximately 120 volunteers will be needed per event, please sign up!
-The District Committee has already visited 7-8 possible schools to be used as venues.
-Cost Breakdown: $5,000 per two District entries ($6,500 for rookies), $4,000 for State Champs, and $1,000 for a third district event (will not count towards ranking points, like FiM)
-State Champs will invite the top 64 teams based on the PNW ranking system, USFIRST will have an idea of the National Standardized Point Model by the end of July. This is likely to take the best from the FiM, MAR, NE FIRST and PNW ranking systems.
-PNW has not disclosed the point system yet, but has noted that awards are likely to be at least as important as they are in FiM and Mar.
-Chairman’s awards will be judged at districts. The district winners will then present again at State Champs, and 3 Chairman Winners will qualify for Worlds.
-PNW is debating a point reset for State Champs, unlike FiM.
-If the venues are smaller, teams may be expected to reduce pit sizes to 8’x8’ (rather than the standard 10’x10’).
-Volunteer, Volunteer, Volunteer!

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

That's a little past my eastern bed time, do you know anything about this so far? I love the concept of the district system but I am curious if there would be enough teams in Washington and Oregon to just use those 2 states?

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Slides and video are to be posted on the FIRSTwa.org website.

http://firstwa.org/FRC/Webinars/DistrictModel.aspx

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Thank you all for posting all this great information. For those of us not in the district system yet, the more information and examples we have the better.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Minor nitpick: The two major arenas in Portland are the Rose Garden, and the Memorial Colesium. They're located adjacent to each other in an area called the Rose Quarter. The Memorial Colesium is the one that all the previous FIRST events have been in.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

some other region will adhere to the district system in 2014 or 2015?

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

If anyone from FIRST Washington reads this MAR came into existence in 2012 season not 2013

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

The plan is for a lot of the largest/densest regions will be supporting the district system by 2015.

I was expecting PacNor to have districts by 2015, but I wouldn't be surprised if they implement it all over the summer while other parts of the continent are hesitant to take the leap until the end of the next competition season.

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Michigan does a points reallocation system where they weight points in district play at a split of something like 65/35 in favor of their CMP.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

In MAR at least, point values awarded at the Regional Championships are tripled from the normal District Event point values.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Points at MSC are worth 3 times what they are at other FiM events (ie: a win is 6 pts).

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Directly from the supplemental rules on the FiM site, as linked above...


Edit:| Didn't see Littleboy's post. Leaving this one up because it has the percentages in it as well.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Well this sucks for us. Where we hade 4 regionals within driving distance this year with this new district even a second event is out of the question.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

the same goes for us, probably in 2017 we can only compete outside the U.S., but until then we will have regionals in Mexico and Brazil, working for it!

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.

Jason

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I have to say it: In the Sound itself? Water Game?!?!?

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

A few important clarifications.

It is not yet official that the PNW district will exist for the 2014 season. The intention is to go to the district model but there are many details to work out before it is official.

Northern ID and western MT teams have been invited and are encouraged to participate while southern ID and eastern MT teams will likely continue attending traditional events for the time being. Many of those teams have not traditionally played at the PNW events the district is replacing but they are certainly welcome to join the district.

The goal is to have at least one of the events in OR be outside of the greater Portland metro area.

The goal is to try to have all district events have the capacity for 40 teams but if necessary there may be events with only up to 32 teams. Having 32 team events, depending on the number of teams that participate, could require more than the 10 district events that are currently under consideration.

There is a national committee that is discussing a unified points system for the long term, but that does not mean that the system will be used for all districts for the 2014 season.

Some people in the PNW region have suggested restarting points for advancement to CMP at the district championship but it is far from being debated at this point.

Criteria for advancement to CMP is still under consideration as is the number of teams that will advance. It is likely that the two runner ups for the District Chariman's Award will advance but that has not be finalized yet.

We definitely do need many more volunteers and sign up for that will be through the organization commonly known as FIRST WA. If you are interested in being a key volunteer you can apply here. http://firstwa.org/Volunteer/KeyVolu...plication.aspx general event volunteers can sign up here http://firstwa.org/Volunteer/VolunteerOverview.aspx You will also need to sign up in VIMS however that system is not fully functional at this time and we need your information on a local level sooner rather than later.

The Girl's Generation events in OR, held by The Flaming Chickens FRC 1540, and WA, held by Bear Metal FRC 2046, will be used as an opportunities for training volunteers. We do hope to hold at least one week zero scrimmage, to practice set up of the season's field and FMS and as another volunteer training opportunity, but again that is far from finalized.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

As mentioned by others, FiM and MAR triple the point values of any achievements at the FiM/MAR championship events, creating a "60/40" split in points between the championship and districts. The logic behind this is that, while district performance still plays a factor in advancing to the FRC Championship event, it's mathematically impossible to advance to the FRC Championship without attending (and doing well at) the FiM/MAR Championship.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

FIRST wanted the PNW district to start for the 2013 season but we were not confident that it could be done at the quality level desired in that time frame. A number of people from the area attended a FiM district event in the 2012 season and scouting for suitable locations for district events has been on-going since then with dozens of locations considered and visited. As I mentioned above it is highly likely that we will do the district model for the 2014 season but there are still a number of details to be worked out and is still not official.

I am aware of this. I was making the point that restarting the points at the district championship was something that was just brought up recently and is not yet being debated, as Navid indicated initially.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I'd like some clarification from folks who are more familiar with FiM and MAR than I am regarding how teams playing in a third+ district event affect point distribution.

Currently, teams accrue points at only the first two events they attend; they may compete in a third event, but any points that would be earned seem to disappear into the ether. Since there are a finite number of points available for teams to earn per event, the presence of one or more teams that are competing at a third event has the effect of shrinking the number of points available to the other teams. If a team attending its third event seeds first, for example, and wins the event, that's 46+ points (or so) that disappear.

How does this affect teams competing in their first and second events in later weeks? It seems to me that, given that they're competing against more experienced teams, they're likely to not perform as well and will receive fewer points than did the the teams that have already completed their two 'real' district competitions. This has the effect of lessening their chance of attending the district and world championship.

Is this tinfoil hat stuff? What is the argument against taking a team's two best performances for point accrual?

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

You are right, it's currently slated for the "Portland Veterans Memorial Coliseum".
They chose this venue because the costs are much lower than anywhere else, the venue is large and has been great in the past.

I apologize if I didn’t make it clear at the beginning. As Mr. V. noted above, none of this is set in stone yet. I just wanted this information to be available to the CD community at large and that it would hopefully foster further discussion.

Absolutely. Kevin and Deb noted that the district system is being created to improve the quality for local teams. After every team in Washington and Oregon is taken care of, and Idaho/Montana teams have received their invitations, there is a possibility that others may be able to join. We have always been glad to have teams travel to our events, but we are growing fast. I was glad to have 4334 in Seattle and I hope we will see more of you in the future!

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

So If I'm understanding this correctly only Northern Idaho teams will receive the invitations, not the Southern Idaho teams?

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Incorrect, but it was anticipated that the previously stated regions would be more likely to accept an invitation.

As of right now, there are only 21 teams in Idaho and Montana combined. Even with our projected growth, I would guess we'd be able to make space for all of them. The PNW is certainly not trying to leave anyone out.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

It does make sense that the northern Idaho teams would be more likely to come, I just figured I would check. Thanks :)

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I don't believe this can work quite like this unless the teams from further afield commit fully to participating the district hierarchy. It'll introduce similar problems to what I've mentioned further up the thread if you have out-of-district teams competing at a district event, as the points earned will be meaningless to them (and they will be unable to earn a berth at the World Championship at the same time).

Districted teams are required to register first for a district event before deciding to attend a traditional regional. I don't believe it's fair to allow outside teams to select a regional event first and then opt to compete in a district event whereby they hurt the chance for local teams to advance to higher levels of play.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

There are very very few MAR teams who compete at a third district event, making it essentially a non-issue for MAR. Granted, there are numerous teams who opt to compete at another regional competition (especially in 2012, when teams where still skeptical about the district system or had already planned on attending particular events). I understand third district events are more common in Michigan (though still the exception rather than the rule).

This was one of the questions addressed by Jim Zondag in his FiM/district FAQ he posted earlier this year. Here are the related questions:
For the most part, I agree with his reasoning and decision. You'll find that a majority of teams make significant progress from their first district to their second (the unbagging period after seeing your robot compete for real is a godsend in this regard). While teams competing later in the season are often at a disadvantage compared to teams who competed earlier in the year, this is true in the traditional regional format as well. Allowing teams to use their two best results rather than their first two creates an inordinate advantage to the teams lucky enough to gain access to a third district.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I know that outside teams are not allowed to compete in Michigan district events. There are a number of issues with letting them compete in a district. The least being that district winners do not qualify for Worlds and district Chairmans do not qualify for Worlds.

I think the first district system that figures out how to fairly let out-of-state teams compete will pave the way. I'd like to see cross-district competition too, but that probably won't happen for quite a while.

My first inclination was to open up the 'extra' district spots to teams outside the state and that they'd have to pay the full regional fee. But not many teams would want to pay that knowing they don't get a World qualifier. In addition, the 'extra' district spots are handed out on a last-minute basis, and most out-of-state teams would hardly want to wait till the last minute to plan all their travel.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Since the Utah regional has existed the majority of teams in Southern ID have been playing there, not at one of the events the PNW district will be replacing while those in Northern ID have typically been attending the events that the PNW district is replacing. So while the invitation is open to all teams in ID we only expect it to make sense for those in Northern ID to participate.

FIRST's long term goal would be for the PNW district to include all of ID and MT as well as AK but in the short term teams are allowed to make the choice that suits them best. The PNW district does not intend to exclude the S. ID teams.

Edit: ID teams and where they played in 2013 season.

Spokane
2122
2130
3145
3315
3513
4520

Portland
2130
3145
4106

Utah
2122
4178
4106
4175
1566
1891
2594
1569
3562
3251
4086

Montana teams

Spokane
3483
1695
1696

Utah
3126
3483

Western Canada
1691

Note there were a number of unfilled positions at the Spokane event and the Portland event.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I believe I've read that the FiM folks did not intend to close themselves off from civilization either, but that it was a requirement levied by FIRST. Can't find it off hand, can someone confirm or tell me that I'm making stuff up?

Thanks for summing this up Navid, I accidentally slept through it. :o

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

This problem will exist to some extent if you allow teams to attend more district events than they can accrue points from, whether accrual comes from best 2, first 2 or anything else.

However the loss of district points from the system is clearly minimized if point accrual is from a team's best 2 events.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

See the think to Zondag's FAQ I posted earlier on this page.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

There was a very good EWCP podcast from last year that had an in depth discussion about the districts. I'd recommend anyone who wants to hear a lot of district system "inside baseball" give it a listen.

The Jim Zondag whitepaper referenced above is also a great read.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

FiNE was also unable to include teams outside the geographic borders of its region. Like it or not (I hate it), FIRST has decreed that districts must stay within FIRST's pre-defined borders, regardless of how much practical geographic sense they make.

Now, if both Ontario and the PNW go to districts, I feel quite bad for 4334.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Thanks for the correction, I put in the wrong date.

Kevin

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

As we start adopting the model, we are going to work with the other regions to settle some key details that really should be uniform across the country. Since PNW and New England represent the next two going into this model, I believe there is enough critical thinking and experience that FiM,MAR,NE, and PNW should be able to settle a thoughtful and well reasoned set of guidelines. What we don't want is for each district that comes into existence to form their own rules. That isn't good for the FRC eco system. There will differences of opinions on some details, but I think a mass of 4 groups will be able to come to a solution.

My overall goal is for all of us doing the District Model to adopt a common point system so that the advancement is uniform across the country. There will be talks on this over the next month. I think all of the district regions have a similar idea, so we will make this happen. There will be a few points that will have to be negotiated, but honestly I think we can get this close.

My hope is that if we share a common point system that somehow we can derive a way to share teams in the future so our FRC community can start travelling between districts and still maintain a rational way to score. This will be part of the discussion.

I am open to well reasoned and helpful suggestions on things we should consider during such discussions.

Kevin

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Link to EWCP podcast on districts with Jim Zondag....

http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-98466/TS-569023.mp3

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Crossing my fingers and hoping beyond hoping that this works out.

Michigan may have set the model, but MAR showed how it can be applied to a broader group in the US. I really hope that PNW can show how this can work for the world...

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Listening to this is well worth the time.

My personal favorite is between 41:00 and 42:30, when Jim goes into high-passion mode on how to really achieve the culture-changing mission of FIRST -- through what he terms "conquest sales"; i.e., getting high-potential students who might have done any of several other activities requiring significant commitment to forgo those, and be part of the FRC team instead. I completely agree with Jim -- this is what really success in the FRC mission will look like. The FRC will be a sport, and not just any sport, but THE sport that society respects and models itself after. I did not believe that before coming to Michigan several years ago, but I do now, because I have seen it beginning to work.

Amen.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Good luck, folks. The district model is great for us Mid-Atlanticans. Hope it works as well for the left coast.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

You can get an advantage with in NW District.
The team can go to a Regional in some other state then come back and play 2 district events. This would gave any team a big advantage.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I don't follow. How is this different from going to a far away regional before going to your local one?

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

1) Has PacNW District moved forward any? I heard that NE was officially announced as a done deal, but nothing that sealed the fate up in PacNW.

2)
The penalty to get this advantage is an additional 4-5k, another weekend of time lost, more travel expenses, etc. It has been done successfully in MAR (and probably FiM, too), but it takes a definite toll on everybody involved. In 7 weeks, you have 1 Regional, 2 Districts, and (you hope) 1 District Championship. This gives you 3 weekends without competitions. And, of course, the ultimate goal is to get to World's in week 9. :eek: It would make for a brutal schedule.

Our team has chosen (subject to change) to instead spend a little extra effort and build a proto-bot during build season so that we can test everything out when we inevitably run out of Build Season. That way, we can still test, program, develop, and train without worrying about the bag time.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

At a regional event you are given three days with your robot including one full day of practice whereas at district competitions you need to show up ready to play. Therefore you could go to a regional mainly to spend three days with it fine tuning it and getting up to competition par before going into district system (2+ district events & DCMP) before going to WCMP.

Or you could go to an outside regional in an attempt to qualify for the World Championship and completely avoid playing at your DCMP and save $4000 in registration fees. You would then have DCMP as fall-back plan in case you didn't qualify at your regional.

Our team tore our robot down to just its drivebase and completely rebuilt twice this season during both Thursdays at The Granite State Regional and The Pine Tree Regional. The second time we were done and fully inspected by lunch time. Thinking about it, if Pine Tree were our "outside regional" and our team then took that robot into a district season it would have been very scary. Our team went from having a robot that did 10-30 hang points in a match at GSR to 90-108 on average.

As it has been mentioned it is very expensive and exhausting. Our team would have to travel 6-10 hours to get to a regional since the 5 closest to us are turning into NEFIRST. But it is nice to get out of your comfort zone and compete with new teams every once and a while!

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

One minor point: For districts, you get unbag time in the week before your competition, which basically makes up for the Thursday of a regional.

It's an advantage, but no more of an advantage than going to multiple regionals is under the current system.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

This feels like a non-sequitur. Was there new information provided recently about the development of the system in the NW that would warrant new thought about this subject?

The situation you've described has been available to all teams competing in districts since their inception.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

The team doesn't save money because the team still has to pay the regional registration fee, but if the team qualifies for Worlds at a far away regional you can then choose not to attend the DCMP to open up a spot for another team from your district to qualify. 341 did this this year for MAR.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Yes. What you gain is an extra shot at qualifying for WCMP and can potentially save money because at the start of the season if your intent is to make it to the WCMP you are budgeting $5000 (regional), $5000 (districts), $4000 (DCMP), & $5000 (CMP).

Its a risk but if you play your cards right you can qualify for CMP in week 1 rather than week 7.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

I don't believe anything new has been officially announced recently. I am under the impression that planning is still under way, last I heard they've been scouting out more possible venues to add to the line-up.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

341 is a Hall of Fame team. They have an auto-bid to the WCMP every year.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

Even so, generally, I don't think the reason teams deny DCMP for the sole purpose of allowing teams another spot.
The teams in MAR this past year that qualified outside of DCMP(excluding waitlist) were 25, 103, 341, 2016, and 365. 25 and 341 both went to the Las Vegas Regional, and one of the main reasons they didn't go to MAR Champs was that it was near impossible logistically to get their robots and equipment back in time for the championship, 2016 won Chairman's at Buckeye, and 365 went to the Chesapeake Regional that same weekend.

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

To be clear 341 qualified for Worlds via CCA, they didn't win a regional.

When teams opt out of their District Championship, the event becomes much less competative than it could be if the powerhouses actually attended (see MAR champs 2013).

Re: Pacific NW District (Official)
 

For the districts, the additional regional is $4,000. However, I cannot find anything that precludes a team from taking the additional Regional and a third Qualifying Event for a total of $5,000 ... well, nothing besides the 6 weekends required... :ahh: