Chief Delphi - [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Kimmeh

18-06-2013 07:53

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holtzman (Post 1279728)

It's important to try and separate yelling at someone because they are angry, and yelling so that someone hears you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1279747)

As Tyler mentioned you often times have to yell to get your point across as a coach.

I'm quite aware. I've been on both the drive team and a drive coach as well.

This happened in 2011 so the details are a bit fuzzy now. There might have been profanity, which I know would set me off. Again, I don't remember what was said, just that it was what was said, not the volume that it was said at. And I know that both the students on my team as well as the other team were were very upset.

BrendanB

18-06-2013 08:25

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimmeh (Post 1279800)

Yep, I have seen and heard those exchanges several times! The one that sticks out to me the most was during a practice match at a one day off-season and another team's drive coach just lost it in the last 10 seconds.

These situations do happen. Its comical what happens when you put humans in a high stress environments and see the result. As I said earlier, these interactions aren't age specific. To say that a student in that situation wouldn't have exploded both in temper and language is absurd. It comes down to the personality of the individual. I have personally seen a tendency of students behind the glass to have a large amount of profanity while driving from both coaches and drivers. No one should be on the drive team if they can't hold their composure in high stress situations and still represent their teams. There isn't a blanket rule FIRST can make that will fix this. This comes down to team's decisions on who should be on the drive team and why.

Kimmeh

18-06-2013 08:35

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1279804)

No one should be on the drive team if they can't hold their composure in high stress situations and still represent their teams. There isn't a blanket rule FIRST can make that will fix this. This comes down to team's decisions on who should be on the drive team and why.

Agreed completely. Which is why I'm glad that Frank mentioned this in his blog. If anything, I learned something new, in that I can take complains like that to Pit Admin and something will be done about it, which is far better than being left upset because the coach is one of the "Greats" and "can do no wrong".

ttldomination

18-06-2013 09:53

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1279804)

Yep, I have seen and heard those exchanges several times! The one that sticks out to me the most was during a practice match at a one day off-season and another team's drive coach just lost it in the last 10 seconds....I have personally seen a tendency of students behind the glass to have a large amount of profanity while driving from both coaches and drivers. No one should be on the drive team if they can't hold their composure in high stress situations and still represent their teams. There isn't a blanket rule FIRST can make that will fix this. This comes down to team's decisions on who should be on the drive team and why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimmeh (Post 1279805)

What you two have said above is not wrong. However, it is somewhat naive.

Don't get me wrong, I expect a certain level of professionalism, but I know that coaching in high intensity situations may not bring out the best in people. As such, when all hell breaks lose and control was "so 2 seconds ago", sometimes, yelling (even a little profanity) provides a temporary, mental release.

Once again, don't get me wrong. Personally, I've been on the receiving end of the raging coaches. Coaches who will fling blame and hellfire at my students. That I will not stand for. But, it's a competition, and as such, I expect it to get a little dirty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 1279759)

Normally, the drivers and college student coach have been cooped up together for the entire six weeks and have already had plenty of time for personalities to gel.

The only two exceptions to college students coaching were in 2011; at Peachtree that year, all of our college students were prevented from traveling by an exam that Friday that was announced Monday of that week. Since I was the only mentor on the trip with coaching experience, I took the role. (I like to think that turned out okay.) At Championship that year, the regular coach asked me to tag in for a mental health break after some really taxing matches. I probably would've needed the same in the same situation. In any case, I'm more than happy to be the backup.

But that's exactly my point. Drive teams function so differently with different people. Even the human player brings something to the dynamic of the drive team. Changing up the dynamics during the season (even if it's one trusted mentor to another), introduces unwanted variables to an already volatile process.

Anyways, I suppose this specific topic is really "whatever works for your team" deal. I've known teams that have drive team rotations so that many people get to take the bot for a spin.

- Sunny G.

KrazyCarl92

18-06-2013 10:34

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by rachelholladay (Post 1279779)

As drive coach, I also often had a rather odd role post-match. We have had the instance (which I'm sure almost everyone has had) where the drive team gets back the pit after a not-so-great match and everyone not on the drive team wants to say what they thought could have been done differently. I don't really blame them, but situations are seen differently from behind the glass then up in the stands. On the occasions where our mentors have wanted to admonish at the drive team, I have had them tell me (as drive coach) rather than then hassle the drivers directly. Then I process the information and try to give the advice to the drivers in a more calm and applied way. Call me maternal, but I like to protect my drive team from being yelled at.

This actually isn't that odd of a role. It is very important for the Drive Coach to be able to diffuse frustration toward the drive team (it happens) and redirect it to become constructive feedback which will help the team perform better. Emotions run high at competition, and that is exactly why it is important for the Drive Coach to remain level headed and respectful as much as possible throughout competition. At times, it is even best for the Drive Coach to sort of "take one for the team" and take the blame for a decision on the field whether or not it was the best decision with the available information at the time and whether or not it was actually their mistake. This serves to keep unnecessary pressure off the drivers, and the Drive Coach should be someone who can take that kind of heat and roll with it. Sometimes the team just wants someone to blame and the drive team happens to be very visible.

Being on the drive team is all fun and games, until someone on one's own team takes it upon themselves to yell at the drivers.*

*It's actually not always fun and games; lot's of mind-numbingly repetitive practice.

Siri	18-06-2013 11:12

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92 (Post 1279819)

Yes. Gosh, I hope it's not odd! Most coaches I know take this responsibility very seriously. I'd argue it's the most important role any of us plays--and there are a lot of things vying for that top spot. It also relates to almost everything in the Top 10 on this list of coaching attributes, which was a cornerstone of my coaching foundation (still is of course, albeit personalized and internalized). Pretty reputable guy, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Baker (Post 462990)

A good drive team coach does these things:
1. Takes full responsibility for all negative happenings on the field
2. Gives full credit to driver, operator, and hp for all positive happenings on the field
3. Shields the drive team from distractions
4. Never argues with the drive team in public
5. Evaluates the drive team and robot after each match, and allows the drive team to evaluate them, as harsh as they wish
6. Keeps the drive team calm and loose
7. Says as few words as possible
8. Thinks fast
9. Speaks clearly
10. Listens to drive team, pit crew, scouting crew
11. Listens to alliance partners and knows when to take their leadership
12. Knows when to tell alliance partner to hush and do what they are told
13. Knows more about their competition than the competition knows about them
14. Knows their alliance partner's strengths and weaknesses
15. Can handle the pressure of an entire team (and 2 partner teams), while keeping this pressure off of the driver, operator, and hp.
16. Knows the #1 person on the other teams who makes the strategy, scouting, and alliance picking decisions... and has their ear.
17. Encourages the rest of the team to be honest with the ability of the robot and current repair status.
18. Is a role model
19. Contributes to the decision regarding who is driving, operating, and hp'ing
20. Knows all of the game rules, and even the Q&A nuances
21. Knows how to talk to the head ref, and teaches that to the drive team
22. Always keeps GP in mind
23. Competes as hard as they can on the field, but offers help to other teams off of the field
24. Prepares a 16-team pick sheet, even though they are not in the top 8 teams.
25. Is responsible for the drive team to be on time for each match
26. Delegates responsibility to drive team to check robot readiness (after depending on the pit crew for preparing it)
27. Visits other team pits to see how they are doing and to do pre-match strategy and scouting
28. Watches matches with drive team, asking them what they would do in certain positions
29. Prepares "scripts" for each match, depending on alliance partners and opponents.
30. Makes sure that all alliance teams know what the "plan" is during the match.
31. DOES NOT change this "plan" 1 minute before the match starts.
32. DOES NOT dictate to alliance partners
33. Knows the score (approximate) and time of the match at all times.. and communicates this, as needed to the drive team
34. Alerts the drive team if a penalty is about to happen.
35. During the finals... if their team is the alliance captain, tells the other team that they are the lead team, but will listen to all input (or, they delegate this leadership role to a picked alliance partner)
36. During the finals... NEVER demands to be in control of the alliance if they are a picked team
37. During the finals... checks to see if the pit crew has prepared all tools and parts needed for their run to be Champions.
38. Keeps very open communication to fellow alliance coaches.
39. Asks permission from another coach if he/she can give direction to the alliance's drive team member (a coach on one team giving direction to a driver on another team).
40. Keeps alliance partner coaches off the backs of your drive team members (no other coach should be yelling at your driver)

TheMadCADer

18-06-2013 13:52

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

I've been seeing a few posts commenting on adult drive coaches lining up the robot before a match. I do see this as well sometimes, but one thing that is easy to miss from the stands is a student standing far back and making sure the robot is lined up, and instructing the mentor in what needs to be changed to line up properly. Many times this is the easiest way to see if the robot is misaligned.

Sometimes the mentor may physically line up the robot, but have no idea where it's supposed to go.

OZ_341

18-06-2013 15:50

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siri (Post 1279764)

This is huge.
So to each to their own, for sure. But if say, 365, 341, 25 or 2729 (I'll force myself to stay local, but there are many more) are considering tossing their adult coach out of the box, I would just like to say: while the position can certainly go to a student at team prerogative, you are touching the lives of several more students every time you take the field.......

It may interest people to know that we have only had an adult booth coach for the last 5 years. From 2000 thru. 2008 we had a student coach. But even though our student coaches won 2 regionals and a Championship Division, we would still occasionally send in an adult to analyze what was happening and make drive team adjustments.
In terms of pure on-field numbers, if you compare the last 5 years to the first 9 years, the results speak for themselves. Our adult coach has been able to get the most out of the drive team and mentor them in a way that students could not.
That being said, every team must do what matches the personality of their organization. Our results have proven that BOTH approaches can and will work given the appropriate effort.

Lil' Lavery

18-06-2013 16:48

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1279758)

I'm not a fan of the comparison to other sports. Leave the decision to the teams, I do not care what other teams are doing or who they choose as coach. If it works for you and you feel it is the best decision for you, great, but don't ever put a rule into place that tells others what to do.

People pick and choose what they want when it comes to comparing this to other sports, but then if I say that coaches in other sports yell and shout much of the time and talk down to their players, suddenly people don't want to be like other sports. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me. You can't compare yourself to another big league sport only when it is convenient for you. This is simply NOT like other sports. If it was, I probably wouldn't be in it.

It's not an all or nothing comparison. There's nothing "hypocritical" about saying that you want aspect X from the sporting world but not aspect Y. To be a hypocrite is to act in a manner that differs from the values you claim to have ("do as I say, not as I do"). How in any way is saying FIRST should emulate the positive aspects of sports but not the negative hypocritical?

FIRST itself readily uses the comparison to sports. It models its competition and program on the sports model, and its what separates FRC from science fairs and other STEM programs. It's the immediate analogy that is drawn by any common spectactor, parent or otherwise. It's a universal model that needs little explanation, save for where FRC intentionally differs. There's no surprise that coaches who aren't "on the sideline" is a matter of curiosity and contention among parents.

Andrew Schreiber

18-06-2013 17:50

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by yarb65 (Post 1279756)

Keeping adult coaches is ok but they should be like coaches in sports. They stay off the field. My teams have usually been competitive and we have never needed me lining up the robot. The is part of the drive teams job. The coach should be training his team on how to set up the robot.

In almost all sports the coach coaches from the sideline. If the coach doe not they can be penalized. It just seems that FIRST does not want to budge on this. If parents were surveyed you might find different results. They are the ones who complain to me.

Hey, if that works for your team it works. What works for me and mine? Probably different.

Regarding FIRST dictating how we run our teams... no thank you. If your parents want a team run a certain way that's your team's call. If your parents want my team run a certain way they can come complain to me. Of course, I'll be sure to remind them that they probably enjoy very different toppings on their pizza than I do and then ask them why that might be.*

* Answer - Because we are all different people. We are all different teams and our students come from different backgrounds.

Siri	18-06-2013 18:00

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1279859)

Absolutely. But you have to use something else to define what and why you want one element and not the other. Justifying such a distinction based on a shared quality: e.g. FIRST shouldn't have adults on the field because other sports don't (while simultaneously disavowing another aspect of those self-same sports) can be considered hypocritical because you're claiming to want something via a value that you do not apply universally. FIRST can and should pick and choose, so long as the distinction between "positive" and "negative" is justified somehow. For instance, abstaining from verbal abuse certainly has very, very obvious justifications, while the coach "sideline" debate is quite ambiguous.

For myself, I believe Frank's justification is very strong, between the survey and the blog post.

Al, thanks. I'd heard tell of this, but I didn't know the crossover year. 2009, wow--yeah, those results say more than I ever could!

z_beeblebrox

18-06-2013 18:27

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Where can I find the results of this survey which is being discussed?

Siri	18-06-2013 18:32

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Quote:

Originally Posted by z_beeblebrox (Post 1279868)

Where can I find the results of this survey which is being discussed?

Here you go. The link's in Frank's blog post, but the URL didn't survive the trek to CD's quote.

DampRobot

19-06-2013 01:54

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

The standard end to this kind of "student built/coached/whatever vs. mentor built" argument is that people agree that not all things may work for all teams. They also agree to continue to allow each team to go about things in their own way. While this is a fine solution, I hope that people understand that it doesn't solve the problem in a way that everyone benefits from.

In this case, the gist of the disagreement seems to be this. Some teams (including slightly more young teams) would like only students to be allowed to coach. Other teams (including a high percentage of teams with over 16 years of experience, teams like the one I am on) would like both students and mentors to be able to act as drive coaches. No one, I believe, is arguing that only mentors should be allowed to be coaches.

While allowing both students and mentors to coach is a solution, it doesn't satisfy those on the other side of the issue. The people who don't want mentors to be able to coach seem to have had bad experiences with a few teams who have mentors as coaches. They have a real (and I believe, legitimate) argument that it's not in the best interest of FRC to allow any mentors to continue coaching. The end that these people desire isn't to allow students to coach, but to keep mentors from coaching on any team.

Please don't read into this that I support one side or another. I'm perfectly fine with having mentors coach, but I wouldn't argue if Manchester decided to stop the practice next year. I personally coached my team this year on the field, and can't say I had a particularly good or bad experience with mentor coaches. I simply believe that the agreement people seem to have reached doesn't satisfy everyone, and we shouldn't suppose that it does.

connor.worley

19-06-2013 15:01

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

I'd like to go back to the disrespect issue, since I spent my time at competition this year working on scouting and preparing match strategies. While this is not universally true, many teams with extensive scouting programs also have adult drive coaches. When my team looks at an upcoming match, we look at the capabilities of every robot on the field and decide what actions the robots on our alliance should take to most easily win the match. We put a LOT of thinking into these strategies, so by the time we're talking to alliance partners, we're confident that they're the best way to play the match. Sometimes teams don't agree with our strategies, and we ultimately will never force a team to do something they don't want to, but we'll present our strategies and argue for them because we're confident that they'll lead us to victory. I hope that doesn't come off as arrogant of disrespectful.

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