[FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Originally posted - http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...-field-coaches

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I think Frank did a great job setting out the whole mentor vs student issue here, as it relates to the Drive Coach position, and also clearly indicating that the collected data shows that FIRST shouldn't change anything in this area.

For my team, I acted as the coach our rookie year, and for about 1/4 of our second year. During the second year, we transitioned it over to a student position, and it's been that way ever since. The transition happened specifically at the student's request - the team wanted to show that they had grown enough through the build season to stand on their own. Typically, it has been held by the programming team lead, as that individual is the one that can help instruct the drivers the most when things aren't working exactly correctly (try pushing this button, or that one, etc), and the one that needs an up close view to be able to fix things (if something breaks mechanically, it's easy to see what's wrong... if something in the code doesn't work right, it's hard to tell from the stands if it's a code issue or a driver issue). We've seen tremendous growth from our drive coaches over the years. They've all spent a few years in the position, and they all ended up as team captain's their senior year.

Yes, when I watch from the sidelines sometimes I say "what are they thinking?", and in those situations it's easy to assume that an experienced mentor acting as drive coach would help the team perform better on the field. Maybe that's true. For me, I guess it's balancing out how on-field performance affects the inspiration on the team, versus the personal growth you can see from a single student fulfilling that role - I can definitely see this balance tilting either way, depending on the specific team dynamics.

Without turning this into a raging debate, I'm wondering how other teams reached their decisions on who should hold the Drive Coach button (Student, Mentor, or even how you select a specific individual for the role)

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

It is worth while to go look at the statistical break down. It is fairly balanced until you get the 16 yr+ where it swings to adult coaches. I wonder if it is a change of mind set on how First should be run over the years.

The question also asks should it be allowed (I am some what neutral) rather than what your does your team do (our team will not have an adult on field coach as long as I have a say in the matter)

We are a 5th year team.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

It might also be interesting to define the role of the drive coach.

I see the drive coach as being the meta layer on top of the drive team. In other words, I see them as more of an alliance coach and only dropping down to the drive coach role in order to handle exceptions. Normally, the drive coaches should be interacting with the other drive coaches for strategic direction, monitoring time and scores, and looking for inter-team interactions required to keep the alliance flowing and scoring.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Frank proves once again why he is "The Man" and why that pesky "acting" must be removed from his title.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

They don't give a response count for the number of responses in each age group. I'm wondering if the 16+ group is just sampling error. There aren't that many teams that have been doing this for 16 years.

I'm glad Frank is even addressing issues that we didn't ask about, this just keeps getting better. Each team makes their own decisions about drive coach, it's something I have been battling with myself each year. I don't think it's clear either way which way is best. Lately I have been coaching at least one off-season event with the new drive team.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I try to avoid me too posts, but +1 for Frank!! (The other Frank not me)

It not only nice to know that First thinks about these things, but also the insight to why some things are the way they are. It is helpful when they come out with some strange, to me at least, decisions that there is really some rational people thinking about what will work.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I also see the drive coach being somewhat of a "spotter" for the drive team. Most robot operators have tunnel-vision directed towards their robot, and in a tricky situation, such as getting around an elaborate defensive blockage, having the drive coach talk them through the chaos is not at all out of line.

Though this year, our drive coach spent more time coordinating the human players during the match than directing the drive team.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Tacking on to what Sisk said, you can look at interactions between a drive coach and the drivers of the team as a window into how the team operates and uncover how and why the team acts at their competitive level. Coaches that are stuck into the spot to micromanage the drivers or exist to diagnose issues on the robot probably served in a role like that throughout the build of the robot. Some teams have a drive coach that talks more to other coaches than their drivers, as I have explained earlier, the best drivers have some weird telepathy type thing going on and they communicate through their magic unseen channels, leaving us coaches to digest what is happening on the field with our robot, the other robots on both alliances, and the clock/timed events.

I like the bit where instead of presenting pros/cons for each side and leaving it at that, he encouraged the teams to look at how they have been doing things and compare it to the other option. All teams from the underdogs to the average should be evaluating the effectiveness of each decision made and considering the possible benefits and drawbacks of a change to their SOP. I would say the powerhouses should as wel, but I'm sure they already do this anyway, and that's why they achieved so much over the years.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I'm extremely glad this was brought up. My first year out of high school, I was the drive team coach of my current team. A friend of mine (also not a student, but not "obviously" out of high school) was the coach for his team, and the two of us were on an alliance with a Highly Respected Team (HRT).

Prior to the match we all discussed game plans and felt confident about how the match would go. Murphy's Law being what it is, things didn't go according to plan. Once on the field, the coach of the HRT let his emotions get out of control and was yelling at not just his students but both mine and the other team's students because things weren't going according to plan.

Neither the other coach nor I took this to pit admin or did anything about it. I later discussed this with another mentor on my team who agreed with my opinions of the coach of the HRT. I disagree with yelling at students in general, but if that's how your team operates, then you're well within your right. Unless one of my students puts you or someone else in great danger it's not your place to lecture or yell at them. Come to me and let me do that.

On that note, a two and a half minute interaction with him continues to impact my thoughts and feelings towards his team.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

It's important to try and separate yelling at someone because they are angry, and yelling so that someone hears you. I've been both a student drive team member, and a field coach. As a student, it was very beneficial to have constant stream of clear and concise instructions in game. It's critical for the field coach to be heard. 2 minutes is a very short amount of time, and at the highest levels, you cannot afford to lose a single match because of miscommunication. It gets hectic in the drivers box so sometimes voices get raised. This is rarely due to anger, but caused more by adrenalin and the need to be heard. Sometimes pregame plans need to be changed in the heat of the moment... it happens. And the teams who can adapt on the fly can often go a long way.

I'm not sure which field coach you are referring too, but I'm sure they didn't mean to be offensive with their comments.

One of my funniest memories in FIRST is standing behind the driver’s station while 67, 48, and 148 played a match together and JVN, Adam Freeman, and Travis Hoffman are all screaming back and forth at each other. In any other situation, you would have thought it was a seriously heated argument, but actually listening to them, it was just common in game communication spoken very loudly. Were they angry at each other? Nope, but they were darn sure that they were going to be heard by one another.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I tend to favor having an adult as the coach. I see my role as formulating the alliance strategy and keeping the students focused and calm. During the actual match I mostly act as a time keeper and a spotter. The students could essentially do everything on their own. I think I might over talk and escalated the stress levels too much my over analyzing our strategy. I think I was too blunt and pessimistic with my own team. However, I wanted to be very polite and cheerful when working with our alliance partners. I notice their drivers were much more relaxed and I realized I was stressing out my own team too much.

I could easily see this situation reversed where a coach stress out their alliance but is nice to their own team. That would certainly be frustrating for me to experience. I think their is something much more upsetting to see adults mad as oppose to students, and rightfully so. In addition, I feel students can feel intimidated developing a strategy with an adult on another team. I have be fortunate recently to have a small team of student to work with strategy and scouting, they have been able to lead the discussions with other alliance members. I am there to guide them and finalize the strategy.

Last year, I was pretty busy, so we swapped students out to be coach while I was on the sideline. It worked out ok. This year, our robot had a lot more strategy and time keeping required so I did all the coaching this year. However, I think for the offseason events, I will have some students coach instead. I try to pass on things to students. At first I was doing most of the strategy and lining up the robot. By LV students took over most of those roles. I know 766 used to use adults as coach, but have switched back to students do to a lack of mentors. I think it worked out because to drivers and coach are good friends.

To me it depends on the team, if you have the resource, use an adult a coach.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

The 10-15 group was trending towards supporting adult coaches, and has an awful lot of teams (I want to say 1200s somewhere would be the highest number included, though.)


16 years... that would be back in 1997 or so. Back in the days of 2 coaches on the field!

Now, I don't know much of anything about that timeframe in terms of coaches, but it seems to my hazy recall of descriptions that if a team used 2 coaches, one had to be a student. This would have given teams around at that time a really good chance to figure out whether a mentor or a student was better, and go with that when the number of coaches was cut to 1.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

In my view, the role of the Drive Coach is to be a leader in pre-match strategy discussions and make sure the agreed upon alliance strategy is effectively communicated to the drivers before the match. During the match the Drive Coach is responsible for knowing what all 6 robots on the field are up to, being aware of the clock, being aware of the score, and making any strategic adjustments (or overhauls) mid-match and communicating them to their partners as needed based on the information available. The Drive Coach should not be giving step-by-step instructions for everything the drivers have to do (unless a peculiar strategy is called for that match). Our drivers should be smart enough to execute a predetermined match strategy on their own. The valuable information the Drive Coach can provide would be more like "the left side of the field is cluttered, so go around behind the pyramid this time instead" than "put the arm up and line up to the peg". Time spent telling the drivers to raise the arm when they do that multiple times every match could be better spent analyzing the field for things the drivers don't already know. The Drive Coach should also be driven to study their competitors to be best prepared for competition.

Team 20 has developed a sort of unique team structure over the past few years based on experience and continuous improvement. I will spare the details, but let's just say that part of our team history includes the bullying from adult Drive Coaches mentioned by Frank. In 2011 we made a conscious decision to go away from adult Drive Coaches in favor of students taking the position. From 2011 through 2013 we have developed a team structure with a Drive Mentor (adult) and a Drive Coach (student) and we are definitely converging on a structure we like.

I was fortunate enough to be offered the position of Drive Mentor this past season for Team 20. I have never coached a match, but I was a driver my senior year in 2011 so I know what it is like to be behind the glass. I was behind the glass with both a student and an adult Drive Coach during that season so I feel that I have a rare perspective as to why this type of structure is important to our team. My role as Drive Mentor is NOT to be on the field with the team. My role at competition is to help lead pre-match strategy discussion and make sure that our scouting and drive teams are communicating effectively. I also pull aside the Drive Team after EVERY match to debrief about what went well and what can be improved. This is extremely important because we need to be able to focus on what we can control as a Drive Team without the distractions from others. We also need to do it after EVERY match because if we only do it after matches when the drivers perform poorly or the Drive Coach makes a questionable decision, the effect is to make it seem like every time I want to talk it is a punishment. Really all I am trying to provide is encouragement and constructive criticism based on strategic analysis to improve our team's on field performance. Emotions and focus are important to that.

Outside of competition, the Drive Mentor's role is to facilitate drive practice (we have a practice bot and access to a full size practice facility), help select the drive team, work well with the team's Lead Mentor and support the drive team in anyway that will help improve on field performance.

To select our student Drive Coach we look for character, personality, and skill, in that order. We have a multiple short essay test we administer to understand who takes the role seriously and how they would deal with tough situations at competition. How do we formulate a match strategy? When do we abandon failed objectives? How do we react to being treated poorly at competition? Does the candidate appear to understand probability, variation, and marginal utility in the context of strategy?

Our student drive coaches have been nothing short of great each of the last 3 seasons and our on field performance reflects that (despite having poorly executed robot designs in 2011 and 2012). Sure mistakes are made, but rarely the same mistake more than once.

When we made the decision to switch from an adult Drive Coach to a student Drive Coach, many mentors on the team were apprehensive about students being bullied into submission in strategy discussions or on the field by other adult Drive Coaches. I have only seen this happen to us twice in three years. Each time, while I consider the alliance partner's conduct unacceptable, we realize that there are things we could have done differently to improve upon the situation looking back and use it as a learning experience. I will say that the strength of our scouting system, especially this past season, has gone a long way toward having our student Drive Coaches heard. How can you ignore a respectful high school senior calmly telling you how many points each team on the field averages and how they do it along with a corresponding strategy designed to maximize our probability of winning a match?

I am firmly in favor of FRC teams deciding for themselves on this topic. That is to say, however a team feels it can best achieve its goals and adhere to the mission of FIRST. I am only qualified to help make that decision for my team, not dictate how thousands of others run theirs. Based on our team history and philosophy, a student Drive Coach is the way to go for Team 20. I can see how an adult Drive Coach is the correct decision for others, especially since there are plenty of very inspirational figures in the robotics community who have worn the coach's pin.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I highly doubt the intentions of the person in question are what you make it out to be. As Tyler mentioned you often times have to yell to get your point across as a coach. I remember a few experiences I had as a driver where understanding what a drive coach had to say was hard because there is so much noise. Nothing is worse than after a match hearing someone say, "Oh I didn't hear you say that". Being on the field is a completely different experience! You have the roar from the crowd, the impact of frisbees going through the chains and hitting the lexan above your head, and above all the field is closer to the speakers in comparison to when you sit in the stands. Even during our pre-match checklist at many events you have to scream to say simple sentences like, "Is everything ready?"

Being on the driveteam isn't a relaxing job. It is downright stressful especially for drive coaches because they aren't at the controls but they do influence the choices their drivers make. My job this season has evolved as our drivers have gained more match experience. At earlier events with a new robot and new driveteam I spent most of our matches guiding our drivers through their movements and helping them prepare for what was next. When to play offense, when to play defense, when to hang, where to hang, etc. At the last event we attended I felt that most of what I did was helping our drivers plan what route to take to get across the field and looking at the big picture of the match.

There were several moments our team encountered that were make or break decisions that drastically changed the outcome of the event for our team. Some of them were minor decisions and others were major gambles that in the end paid off, others didn't. These decisions happen all the time and teams need to put individuals capable of making these decisions in fractions of a second. Whether that is a student or an adult that is up for the team to decide but its impossible to say which group better exhibits these qualities. I know of many adults who are amazing drive coaches and I have met and worked with an equal number of student drive coaches who are just as amazing.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

This. I remember getting looks when coaching 1618 in 2008, when visibility was a challenge depending on your player station location. I would often hustle to the end of the player station and shout commands back to the drivers to get them past other robots (or not) or help them time the turn.

I know 2815 makes it a conscious decision for college student coaches, as we feel the leadership experience is important for them as well. I've filled in a couple of times when a college student wasn't available to coach, but by and large we've stuck with them. Historically, we've spread the drive team wealth at human player more than anything.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind the second coach making a comeback. Beyond any tactical benefits, some years the raw process of getting the robot, cart, and driver station positioned and set up quickly and safely starts to get right on the limit of what four humans can do. An extra set of hands on troubleshooting the driver station or stage equipment would be valuable. (And with the removal of the alliance station box on the carpet, I don't know if it'd really be a space penalty.)

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

This is an interesting decision.

I've found that it is very important to have a drive team that is cohesive and works well together. It takes a couple of matches to figure out everyone's style and comfort level to various things.

As such, my personal choice is that a college student (including myself) will never coach on my team. At least, if the college student wants to coach, then he/she will have to commit to all events (including a potential worlds).

I can't risk the student drivers having to bounce their trust between coaches. It's not conducive to good drive team chemistry.

- Sunny G.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Another beneficial aspect of the adult coach is the institutional knowledge that stays in the team as students come and go during their high school years.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Keeping adult coaches is ok but they should be like coaches in sports. They stay off the field. My teams have usually been competitive and we have never needed me lining up the robot. The is part of the drive teams job. The coach should be training his team on how to set up the robot.

In almost all sports the coach coaches from the sideline. If the coach doe not they can be penalized. It just seems that FIRST does not want to budge on this. If parents were surveyed you might find different results. They are the ones who complain to me.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I'm not a fan of the comparison to other sports. Leave the decision to the teams, I do not care what other teams are doing or who they choose as coach. If it works for you and you feel it is the best decision for you, great, but don't ever put a rule into place that tells others what to do.

People pick and choose what they want when it comes to comparing this to other sports, but then if I say that coaches in other sports yell and shout much of the time and talk down to their players, suddenly people don't want to be like other sports. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me. You can't compare yourself to another big league sport only when it is convenient for you. This is simply NOT like other sports. If it was, I probably wouldn't be in it.

This topic has been discussed in past threads before and I will always come to the same conclusion: neither kids nor adults have some inherent ability to be a good coach. Both can be immoral, obnoxious, rude, and terrible coaches. Both can be taught how to coach well. Leave it up to teams to decide what they want to do.

Thank you, Frank, for posting this in your blog.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Normally, the drivers and college student coach have been cooped up together for the entire six weeks and have already had plenty of time for personalities to gel.

The only two exceptions to college students coaching were in 2011; at Peachtree that year, all of our college students were prevented from traveling by an exam that Friday that was announced Monday of that week. Since I was the only mentor on the trip with coaching experience, I took the role. (I like to think that turned out okay.) At Championship that year, the regular coach asked me to tag in for a mental health break after some really taxing matches. I probably would've needed the same in the same situation. In any case, I'm more than happy to be the backup.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Define "sideline" in respect to FRC.

No, seriously. That may be what the parents--or all of us--need, is a definition of "sideline".

Remember, in all sports, the coach can signal (verbally or otherwise) to his/her players. It's not uncommon for NFL head coaches to tell the players what they need to be doing right before a play begins. (Setting up the robot could potentially fall into this category.)

And, in FRC, anybody other than a driver (pre-college, by definition), operating the robot is a technical foul. (It used to be worse; I want to say a red card for contacting the controls for the coach--regardless of age.)

So, let's define "on the sideline". The "sideline", in FRC, is anything behind the operator console and its operators--I think that's a reasonable description. (In the bleachers counts as "not on the field".) If the coach is back there, coaching (adult or student), they are on the sideline. If they make contact with the controls, particularly if they operate the robot, they are now "on the field" and liable to penalty (and T-fouls ain't light).

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

This is also way better than my point. Thanks Eric.

Additionally, I think people reading this thread should read the multiple others that have been posted over the years regarding mentors as coaches:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...tudent+co ach

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=67426

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=77390

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=91144

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93881

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

This is huge. Mentors ensure the continuity--for every sub-team--in order to guide greater improvement and inspiration year after year. I know our drive team wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as if we couldn't fully build on this every season. I've worked with many good student coaches (I've been a student coach, as well as a student driver with both). But after 7 years behind the glass, there really is nothing more inspirational or educational for an alliance than working with a powerhouse adult coach.

For myself, easily the most beneficial FIRST opportunity I've ever had is in learning how to interact with people--applied to kinds of people in all kinds of situations--from great adult coaches. I've taken those lessons to spheres of life, to other continents. As a student, nothing else comes close to this behind-the-glass lesson. It was far and away my most formative experience in FIRST, and we weren't even good enough to do it very often.

So to each to their own, for sure. But if say, 365, 341, 25 or 2729 (I'll force myself to stay local, but there are many more) are considering tossing their adult coach out of the box, I would just like to say: while the position can certainly go to a student at team prerogative, you are touching the lives of several more students every time you take the field. This is, like many other interactions in FIRST, in a way that can really only be managed by a strong mentor.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

As someone working to start a new rookie rural FRC team, this was the best part of an excellent blog post.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I fall on the side of the student drive coach. Having said that we have had some student drive coaches that are quite good, some not so good.

What I would like to change is to allow adults mentors to be on the field during the practice matches to help the student drive coach learn, even to the point of allowing the "powerhouse" adult drive coach mentors mentor multiple teams throughout practice day. After all, we are there to help the students learn.

I also like one posters suggestion of a Drive Mentor (adult) and a student Drive Coach. Again with the idea of helping the students learn.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

While I agree that helping the students learn is a great thing, I do not believe this is explicitly stated in the mission of FIRST. We are here to inspire students. Inspiration can happen through learning, watching, and doing. Having Drive Coaches that are mentors can serve to inspire students very well even if it excludes students from the position. Students can see a mentor out there on the field as Drive Coach and say "WOW, I hope when I grow up I can be like them!" The same can be said about inspiration via a student Drive Coach. Younger students might see their older teammates or meet other teams' students and think "He/She is really awesome at Drive Coach; I hope I can make a difference like that on the team next year!" Skills can be built and lessons can be learned through watching and without being actively taught.

If we can get high schoolers looking up to positive role models through FRC, whether it be adults or teammates who are leaders (I argue it doesn't matter which), we're doing something right.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I think there can be a lot of benefit to having an adult coach. With the exception of one match in Atlanta in 2007, 696 never has had an adult coach. I've wanted to for years, but the students still won't let me, and I doubt it will change next year. Could I just say I'm the coach, since I'm the lead mentor of the team? Sure. Will I coach drivers who don't want me as their coach? No way. So, I do the best I can off the field, to make sure they're prepared on the field. And sometimes I enjoy not having the responsibility of it.

I think FIRST did the right thing here leaving it up to the teams.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

If a team wants to have an adult drive coach and feels that benefits the team the most, then they will. If a team wants to have an student drive coach and feels that benefits the team the most, then they will. I wouldn't try to tell them how to pick their drive team anymore than I would tell them how to build there robot.

Team 1912 just finished its 8th year and has always had student drive coaches. I have served as the drive coach for 2012 and 2013. Typically (with a few exceptions) our drive team has been composed of our build captains, with the controls captain as the drive coach, and the chassis captain, CAD captain and challenge captain as driver, operator and human player. Our captains are the students who have invested the most time, who understand the robot the best and who are the most dedicated. Our controls captain has been the drive captain for several reasons. We have always thought that someone one the drive team should know about the electronics and software. Also the control captain always must keep the big picture in mind, understanding all the components in order to integrate them in software. Its also coincided that many of our controls captains have been very, very dedicated.

Before our matches, typically our drive coach and strategist (both are students) talk to and generally touch base with our alliance partners to figure some general strategy. Pre-match we typically have all four members of the drive team involved in discussions to have everyone clued in. During a match, as drive coach I'm generally trying to do several things at once: communicate with the coaches of our alliance partners, help keep track of time, communicate with the human player and guide the general strategy of our robot. Our driver will admit, he has complete tunnel vision and looks at nothing but our robot. Therefore it is my responsibility to keep track of all six robots; for example this year telling him which path would be most efficient from feeder station to goal. There has only been one instance where I told our operator exactly what to do. (This year during our first couple of matches our operator had the habit of firing too rapidly and not letting the discs reload. To help him establish a rhythm I would say "Fire....Fire.....Fire.....Fire". After a few matches though, he got the hang of it and that was no longer necessary).

As drive coach, I also often had a rather odd role post-match. We have had the instance (which I'm sure almost everyone has had) where the drive team gets back the pit after a not-so-great match and everyone not on the drive team wants to say what they thought could have been done differently. I don't really blame them, but situations are seen differently from behind the glass then up in the stands. On the occasions where our mentors have wanted to admonish at the drive team, I have had them tell me (as drive coach) rather than then hassle the drivers directly. Then I process the information and try to give the advice to the drivers in a more calm and applied way. Call me maternal, but I like to protect my drive team from being yelled at.

As a student drive coach, there has been several occasions where I have felt disrespected or looked down upon my adult drive coaches. I do my best to keep a calm face and not get too frustrated. I don't like it and while I try not to keep any grudges, it does leave a temporarily sour taste in my mouth. I also remember being treated with nothing but respect by many fellow drive coaches, student or adults.

Personally I will always lean towards student drive coaches. I think its important for a student to assume that responsibility and that it helps students grow as leaders. Weird thing about the mentors of 1912: they refused to be the drive coach. They are of the firm opinion that a student should be drive coach and the majority of our lead technical mentors have been very passionate about that. Thinking back, our mentors almost never ever drive the robot, even at the build space or on demos. They simply see that as something we kids do.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

"What works for your team may not work for my team. What works for my team may not work for your team."

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I'm quite aware. I've been on both the drive team and a drive coach as well.

This happened in 2011 so the details are a bit fuzzy now. There might have been profanity, which I know would set me off. Again, I don't remember what was said, just that it was what was said, not the volume that it was said at. And I know that both the students on my team as well as the other team were were very upset.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Yep, I have seen and heard those exchanges several times! The one that sticks out to me the most was during a practice match at a one day off-season and another team's drive coach just lost it in the last 10 seconds.

These situations do happen. Its comical what happens when you put humans in a high stress environments and see the result. As I said earlier, these interactions aren't age specific. To say that a student in that situation wouldn't have exploded both in temper and language is absurd. It comes down to the personality of the individual. I have personally seen a tendency of students behind the glass to have a large amount of profanity while driving from both coaches and drivers. No one should be on the drive team if they can't hold their composure in high stress situations and still represent their teams. There isn't a blanket rule FIRST can make that will fix this. This comes down to team's decisions on who should be on the drive team and why.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Agreed completely. Which is why I'm glad that Frank mentioned this in his blog. If anything, I learned something new, in that I can take complains like that to Pit Admin and something will be done about it, which is far better than being left upset because the coach is one of the "Greats" and "can do no wrong".

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

What you two have said above is not wrong. However, it is somewhat naive.

Don't get me wrong, I expect a certain level of professionalism, but I know that coaching in high intensity situations may not bring out the best in people. As such, when all hell breaks lose and control was "so 2 seconds ago", sometimes, yelling (even a little profanity) provides a temporary, mental release.

Once again, don't get me wrong. Personally, I've been on the receiving end of the raging coaches. Coaches who will fling blame and hellfire at my students. That I will not stand for. But, it's a competition, and as such, I expect it to get a little dirty.

But that's exactly my point. Drive teams function so differently with different people. Even the human player brings something to the dynamic of the drive team. Changing up the dynamics during the season (even if it's one trusted mentor to another), introduces unwanted variables to an already volatile process.

Anyways, I suppose this specific topic is really "whatever works for your team" deal. I've known teams that have drive team rotations so that many people get to take the bot for a spin.

- Sunny G.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

This actually isn't that odd of a role. It is very important for the Drive Coach to be able to diffuse frustration toward the drive team (it happens) and redirect it to become constructive feedback which will help the team perform better. Emotions run high at competition, and that is exactly why it is important for the Drive Coach to remain level headed and respectful as much as possible throughout competition. At times, it is even best for the Drive Coach to sort of "take one for the team" and take the blame for a decision on the field whether or not it was the best decision with the available information at the time and whether or not it was actually their mistake. This serves to keep unnecessary pressure off the drivers, and the Drive Coach should be someone who can take that kind of heat and roll with it. Sometimes the team just wants someone to blame and the drive team happens to be very visible.

Being on the drive team is all fun and games, until someone on one's own team takes it upon themselves to yell at the drivers.*

*It's actually not always fun and games; lot's of mind-numbingly repetitive practice.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Yes. Gosh, I hope it's not odd! Most coaches I know take this responsibility very seriously. I'd argue it's the most important role any of us plays--and there are a lot of things vying for that top spot. It also relates to almost everything in the Top 10 on this list of coaching attributes, which was a cornerstone of my coaching foundation (still is of course, albeit personalized and internalized). Pretty reputable guy, too.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I've been seeing a few posts commenting on adult drive coaches lining up the robot before a match. I do see this as well sometimes, but one thing that is easy to miss from the stands is a student standing far back and making sure the robot is lined up, and instructing the mentor in what needs to be changed to line up properly. Many times this is the easiest way to see if the robot is misaligned.

Sometimes the mentor may physically line up the robot, but have no idea where it's supposed to go.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

It may interest people to know that we have only had an adult booth coach for the last 5 years. From 2000 thru. 2008 we had a student coach. But even though our student coaches won 2 regionals and a Championship Division, we would still occasionally send in an adult to analyze what was happening and make drive team adjustments.
In terms of pure on-field numbers, if you compare the last 5 years to the first 9 years, the results speak for themselves. Our adult coach has been able to get the most out of the drive team and mentor them in a way that students could not.
That being said, every team must do what matches the personality of their organization. Our results have proven that BOTH approaches can and will work given the appropriate effort.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

It's not an all or nothing comparison. There's nothing "hypocritical" about saying that you want aspect X from the sporting world but not aspect Y. To be a hypocrite is to act in a manner that differs from the values you claim to have ("do as I say, not as I do"). How in any way is saying FIRST should emulate the positive aspects of sports but not the negative hypocritical?

FIRST itself readily uses the comparison to sports. It models its competition and program on the sports model, and its what separates FRC from science fairs and other STEM programs. It's the immediate analogy that is drawn by any common spectactor, parent or otherwise. It's a universal model that needs little explanation, save for where FRC intentionally differs. There's no surprise that coaches who aren't "on the sideline" is a matter of curiosity and contention among parents.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Hey, if that works for your team it works. What works for me and mine? Probably different.

Regarding FIRST dictating how we run our teams... no thank you. If your parents want a team run a certain way that's your team's call. If your parents want my team run a certain way they can come complain to me. Of course, I'll be sure to remind them that they probably enjoy very different toppings on their pizza than I do and then ask them why that might be.*






* Answer - Because we are all different people. We are all different teams and our students come from different backgrounds.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Absolutely. But you have to use something else to define what and why you want one element and not the other. Justifying such a distinction based on a shared quality: e.g. FIRST shouldn't have adults on the field because other sports don't (while simultaneously disavowing another aspect of those self-same sports) can be considered hypocritical because you're claiming to want something via a value that you do not apply universally. FIRST can and should pick and choose, so long as the distinction between "positive" and "negative" is justified somehow. For instance, abstaining from verbal abuse certainly has very, very obvious justifications, while the coach "sideline" debate is quite ambiguous.

For myself, I believe Frank's justification is very strong, between the survey and the blog post.


Al, thanks. I'd heard tell of this, but I didn't know the crossover year. 2009, wow--yeah, those results say more than I ever could!

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Where can I find the results of this survey which is being discussed?

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Here you go. The link's in Frank's blog post, but the URL didn't survive the trek to CD's quote.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

The standard end to this kind of "student built/coached/whatever vs. mentor built" argument is that people agree that not all things may work for all teams. They also agree to continue to allow each team to go about things in their own way. While this is a fine solution, I hope that people understand that it doesn't solve the problem in a way that everyone benefits from.

In this case, the gist of the disagreement seems to be this. Some teams (including slightly more young teams) would like only students to be allowed to coach. Other teams (including a high percentage of teams with over 16 years of experience, teams like the one I am on) would like both students and mentors to be able to act as drive coaches. No one, I believe, is arguing that only mentors should be allowed to be coaches.

While allowing both students and mentors to coach is a solution, it doesn't satisfy those on the other side of the issue. The people who don't want mentors to be able to coach seem to have had bad experiences with a few teams who have mentors as coaches. They have a real (and I believe, legitimate) argument that it's not in the best interest of FRC to allow any mentors to continue coaching. The end that these people desire isn't to allow students to coach, but to keep mentors from coaching on any team.

Please don't read into this that I support one side or another. I'm perfectly fine with having mentors coach, but I wouldn't argue if Manchester decided to stop the practice next year. I personally coached my team this year on the field, and can't say I had a particularly good or bad experience with mentor coaches. I simply believe that the agreement people seem to have reached doesn't satisfy everyone, and we shouldn't suppose that it does.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

I'd like to go back to the disrespect issue, since I spent my time at competition this year working on scouting and preparing match strategies. While this is not universally true, many teams with extensive scouting programs also have adult drive coaches. When my team looks at an upcoming match, we look at the capabilities of every robot on the field and decide what actions the robots on our alliance should take to most easily win the match. We put a LOT of thinking into these strategies, so by the time we're talking to alliance partners, we're confident that they're the best way to play the match. Sometimes teams don't agree with our strategies, and we ultimately will never force a team to do something they don't want to, but we'll present our strategies and argue for them because we're confident that they'll lead us to victory. I hope that doesn't come off as arrogant of disrespectful.

Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches
 

Many teams did this (one adult one student) but it was not required. On my HS team, our rookie & second year in 96-97, we had two adults, the third year we had 1 student & 1 adult. I've said many times I loved that combo and as the student I learned so much from the chance to coach with the safety net of a good mentor at my back.

So you might doubt it, but I can verify the screaming coach situation. I've seen it numerous times, some cases the coach yelling at our drivers, some cases the coach screaming at their own scared kids. You can tell the intention/reception by the reaction of the other people around. If their own kids are startled/scared, they are angry yelling, if their own kids are calm, they might just be yelling to be heard. But either way, if it was perceived as aggressive and mean, there should be discussions and apologies after. I've seen coaches continue to yell at alliance partners as they left the field... the "heat of battle" story does not apply for all cases. I would like to guess that 60-75% of the cases are yelling to be heard, but there are certainly a number of adult coaches that I would NEVER let coach my teams. I don't care the results, if your team is even PERCEIVED as a bully, I don't want you as my coach, I don't want to work with you, I certainly WONT pick you, and I really hope to never play at an event with you again. It makes the entire alliance miserable when a coach yells aggressively at another team's drivers. Look at the 67/48/148 example... did any one of those coaches ever yell at the other team's drivers? I hope not.

THIS!! I will admit, I was really nervous when I first started reading Frank's Blog. I am relieved at the decision, and impressed with his great suggestions, but I am glad they didn't try and decide for us.

One of my favorite memories this year (a result of constantly sticking my camera in drivers faces) is during the Beantown Blitz mentor matches, catching all the students having to tell the mentors what to do as they set up, showing them the controls, how to line up the robots, how to read the screens... while there were some mentors that knew exactly what to do, the majority did not, and I think that means our kids are certainly taking the lead in several places!! :)