FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Taken from the FRC Blog, 9/20/13: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...s-list-changes

I don't know how I feel about this. To me, it sounds like they are thinking too much of, "oh, this award would be great for college applications!", instead of focusing on giving it to who really earns it, no matter what their age. I've heard of teams submitting freshman, because they have more dedication and commitment than some upperclassmen. The award should be given out to students who earned it for their continuing hard work, instead of giving it out to "motivate them" even more. I have a few very good friends who have earned the Dean's List Finalist Award, and from what I've seen, if they have been doing so much to be given the award, they already have plenty of the right motivation. Some students don't even really gain the motivation and show their best effort until their senior year, and now it would be too late for them to get rewarded for it. I know there were some members on my old high-school team who we were waiting until their senior year to submit them for Dean's List, because we felt they would step it up even more so than they already had. From my own experience, I felt barely involved at first in freshman year, and only became more so during my sophomore year. It wasn't until my junior and senior years that I began to breathe-eat-and-sleep FRC. I honestly can't really see how a sophomore could be submitted for such a prestigious award, but there is a lot I haven't seen.

But, I trust that like altering Chairman's, this decision was discussed by many, so I assume it is for the best then if multiple officials agreed on it. And I do like the new interview portion of it now.

What I would like to see, however, is modifying Dean's List the same way Chairman's was - selected candidates would be eligible to win at any regional they attend, not just one.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Interesting change. I personally think in theory it seems like a good idea, as it puts a face to the essay, and truly gives the judges a feel for who the students are.

With that said in practicality time will only tell if it works or not. With that said I'm excited to see this change and what happens.

As for the Sophomore/Junior Requirement, I understand this brings Dean's List Recipients more in line with FIRST's intent of the award, however I feel this part of the change isn't going to go over exactly well. Many teams still treat it as a Senior Award, and many students are going to get left out because of this.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I don't know how you can really justify nominating a sophomore for this award. I feel like this is something that a student has to demonstrate over the years (sort of like Chairman's for a team), meaning that a sophomore won't have had time to prove himself or herself.

On the topic of interviews, I think that's a better way of doing this, as it can be very difficult to ascertain the quality of a student solely based on an essay written by a mentor.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Re - the Junior-Sophomore aspect: I fully agree and support this change, and it's the way I think it should have been all along.

My current Senior, on the other hand, has a different perspective.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Does this automatically disqualify entrants from teams that do not advance to their district championship?

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I agree 200% with the interview component, however I completely disagree with the Sophomore/Junior restriction. Seniors who have been with their team/program for four years have had more time to make an even bigger impact, and they should be recognized for that, wether it will show up on a college application or not.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

This says it all. By the time a senior receives their Dean's List Award (March or April of their senior year), they're done with the college application process. By that point most of our kids have received their acceptance letters and are figuring out which school they want to go to. Effectively, the Dean's List isn't going to do much for them except give them recognition. On the other hand, the Dean's List could do a lot for a sophomore and junior who more than likely hasn't started the college application process.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I would assume no, however, the nominee would have to show up to do an interview-something that could be a huge burden on certain finalists. That's probably the only issue I have with this interview process, unless interviews via Skype would be allowed.

Otherwise, the junior-sophomore restriction isn't the best scenario, however it fits directly in line with FIRST's intent of the award. Nominating juniors is something that was strongly encouraged in the rules since 2012(and even part of Dean's HW that year).

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

While I wholeheartedly agree with interviewing candidates, I am at odds with the decision to restrict entrance to sophomores and juniors. Like others have said, some students may not flower until their late junior/early senior year in terms of productivity and FIRST talent. Late comers may become the support beams to various teams, but would not be recognized.

That being said, I can see why FIRST wants to get colleges to value the Dean's List higher. It's not exactly a hidden truth that top tier institutes prefer to see science fair medalists, science olympiad champions, and winners of various other awards over FIRST, the reason being that while those other activities have individual winners, FIRST is a team sport, and as such, anyone can write FIRST on their applications. FIRST introduced the Dean's List initially to honor students, but there still was the problem of FIRST not being weighted as much as individual awards in academia.
FIRST is pushing the award to be given early in the student's career so they can place it on their college application, thereby giving their FIRST activity as much weight as winning the state science fair or something similar. The negative of this? We are limiting our pool of applicants and filtering out some of the higher quality applicants from the pool.

Limiting the pool of applicants might make it so students get more credit for FIRST on their college applications, but FIRST is eliminating the potential to award a more deserving person of the highest honor a FIRSTer could get.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Personally, I like the Sophomore/Junior part of this. While it's great to recognize graduating seniors who did a fantastic job (and that's something I would encourage every team to find a way to do), an award like this should mean something more than just recognition.

A Dean's List finalist is someone everyone in FIRST should be able to look up to. It's hard to do that if you never see that individual again, which is a sad part of graduating - once you're off to college, there isn't time for much else (And I'm a strong proponent of graduates taking at least a year off from FIRST to get the college experience before coming back as a mentor!). By recognizing Sophomores and Juniors, we give them another year or two to use that recognition and title to help affect FIRST in their community before they go off to college.

So, as a community lets change how we treat the Dean's List. Lets look at it not as a recognition award that we forget the next year. Lets look at the students who win it as the ones we'll turn to to help enhance the entire FIRST community over the next year!

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I am torn on the decision to do the interviews for District areas at the District championship, I think it will put a large burden on the Judges as well as teams that do not qualify for District Champs. I like what someone suggested of a Skype interview maybe the week prior to try and fit them all in.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

While I'm glad that FIRST is trying changes in the ways of selecting the 2014 Dean's List, I have reservations in the fact in the restriction to sophomores & juniors. My first thought: why exclude a class of student that may have some of the most collective experience in the FRC program? In my years outside of high school and working with students, many came to their peak in their senior years in the effect they had on the FIRST culture. As a Dean's List Winner myself, I can say I understand the intent; but I can't say I agree. But then again, this could bring some new developments to the award that we could never have imagined in the realm of college & university relations, or opportunities to future DL finalists & winners, the latter of which I've wanted for finalists for a while. My final thought: let's see where this goes.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I like the interview part, but the sophomore/junior limitation really saddens me.

First of all, because of all the great seniors that won't be able to receive the award. I know some seniors who deserve Dean's List, and weren't submitted in their junior year because that year's seniors received the honor. I think starting this limitation in 2015 would be wiser, to allow those who waited a chance.

Secondly, because that seems like a very american-oriented decision, that doesn't really consider the international teams. In Israel, senior year is THE most relevant year to receive Dean's List, and I don't know about Canada, but if I remember correctly they can still use Dean's List for their college applications in senior year. (And yes, I'm being self centered and am aware of that). The limitation should be country based IMO.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Yes, awards and recognitions you receive late in your senior (Grade 12) year of high school in Canada can still have a large impact on your admission decision, and a huge impact on your scholarship decisions. This decision is definitely disappointing for Canadian high school seniors (as was the previous preference for junior year candidates). That being said, Canadian teams will just nominate these deserving seniors one year earlier. By no means is this a deal breaker.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

True, but you could say the same about American teams being able to submit seniors. They could do it a year earlier, and there's still a limitation.
The older the achievement, the less impressive it appears. A year may not be a long time, but it can still have a big difference on the way those you're trying to impress (colleges in that case) look at your Dean's List Finalist status. I learned that on my flesh (through a different achievement, not Dean's List).

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Ok Frank....you tell me that you read CD.

Did you take a poll, conduct a focus group, ask specific mentors or gather inputs from the FRC field regarding these changes? The internationals, Israel, Canada etc...have different systems as evidenced by Karthik and bardd.

You have my number.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I feel the way to fix this honestly for the seniors that are now currently in session is to wait to make this change till 2015 season, so all current seniors wouldn't be effected. Afterward you nominate your deans list candidate in the summer or before school is in session.

All though the award of sophomores and juniors is a smart go; just the timing was pretty wrong for those teams nominating seniors. We don't have canada tech here to do what they do.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I could appreciate when FIRST encouraged teams to nominate Sophomore and Junior students for the Dean's List award. Dean's List is a great honor and a great asset on a college application. So I understand why FIRST did what it did.

But Dean's List is largely about recognizing a student's contribution to the program. About recognizing a student who poured their soul into the program, to spread FIRST to the community and to generally further the goals of FIRST. This is an award that should be ageless. By limiting to ages, FIRST could be passing over some very deserving seniors.

Encouraging teams to nominate Sophomores and Juniors was a good effort, but forcing teams to do so just seems wrong to me...

That said, I really like the interview process! It'll probably put a bit of extra strain on the judging staff, but I think it'll be worth it. I really like this addition!

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Doing this, though, just sucks the system into an endless cycle of waiting till next year to allow current seniors the chance at winning. Like if you allow 2014 seniors the chance, then you take away the chance for 2014 juniors. Then in 2015 you'd have to allow 2015 seniors but then you'd take away 2015 juniors. You see the endless cycle?

I think a better way they could have approached this would have been to implement the interview process and tell teams that it might be better to try and put up sophomores and juniors but keep it open for everyone; I, like many others, do believe that more students become who they are on teams when they are seniors.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm not happy with the fact that some of the most deserving team members are suddenly ineligible. The obvious fix is to push the "no Seniors" rule out another year. My suggestion to address the "endless cycle" problem dodar pointed out would be to permit teams to nominate three students this year instead of two (perhaps giving that privilege only to teams who nominated a senior last year).

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

As a Senior who has been dreaming of possibly winning this award since Freshman year: This sucks.

I'm not trying to sound selfish, because I'm sure there are other seniors who feel the same way. This award was a big goal of mine, and I'm really disappointed that neither I, nor any of the amazing seniors this year, will have the chance to be rewarded and recognized for our hard work.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I remember this going around at championships so it is not a new idea. Still I can see current seniors not liking it. The issue with having spit age range.. Juniors in the states & senior equivalent elsewhere would make judging it a lot more difficult since seniors will have one more year of accomplishment.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I really like the addition of the interview as it puts a face to the name of each of the candidates. However, I really don't like the idea of seniors not being able to win the award. IMO, this puts too much emphasis on it being an award to show to colleges, and not something that your team nominated you for after 3-4 years of hard work. It devalues the Dean's List Award.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm in the same boat.

I think the Dean's List Award is suffering from a bit of an identity crisis. On one hand, it recognizes technical and leadership skills, as well as recognizing contributions to teams/the FIRST program, and on the other hand, it seems like FIRST is really obsessed with getting Dean's List winners/finalists recognized by colleges. I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive necessarily, but there are some contradictions at the edge cases.

Personally, I'm a bit disappointed with the decision. But I suppose some of us must lose out for FIRST to pursue its higher goals.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

First, like everyone else, I loved the Interview part. It just makes sense.

But... I just don't like the no seniors part. At first I thought it makes sense, but between the international teams and the really exceptional seniors in FIRST I cannot agree with it. My ideal system would be that during the judging process a HUGE priority would placed on people who could use this for college applications. This gets rid of the international problem, and makes it so that if there is a senior who deserves it substantially more than everybody else he would still have a chance.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

One thing I didn't mention in my original post is that I really like the addition of the interviews. Logistical concerns aside, the interview process will help ensure the best candidates are chosen. Consider this wording from the 2013 description of the Dean's List Award:

If the award is looking to recognize people who will be advocates of FIRST well into the future, you want to choose students who have a demonstrated ability to sell the program. One of the best ways to judge this is to speak to the students directly to gauge not only their passion and dedication to FIRST, but their ability to evangelize the program. This will ensure that students who are much more than can be seen from a 4,000 character essay, get properly recognized.

By no means am I trying to sound harsh here, but as disappointing as it is for you to no longer be eligible for this award, it's not like you never had a chance. You were very eligible in your Junior year, with FIRST strongly urging all teams to nominate Juniors. See below.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I completely understand - and agree. My team just nominates seniors because they've impacted the team and community and represented the ideals of FIRST the most (what the award is supposed to celebrate).

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I understand why they're doing it, but it defeats the purpose of the award. In the words of Woodie Flowers, "You get what you celebrate", and the description of the Dean's List Award states that its goal is to recognize the exemplary students who best express the ideals of FIRST. In that scenario, the expressing FIRST ideals and being an exemplary student is celebrated, so that's what FIRST would get. However they've been turning the award into a coveted title for college applications. In this scenario, FIRST celebrates focusing more on individual efforts than being a role model for others, so FIRST will get a bunch of students who only want an award for their college applications.

This pretty much goes against everything I've been told by Dean, Woodie, and everyone else for the past decade since I've been involved in FIRST. I feel lied to.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

As a senior (and now Team Captain), my opinionated response is that the interview process is FANTASTIC but the sophomore/junior requirement is RIDICULOUS!!! I have worked very hard on my team since my freshmen year and have made huge impacts on both the engineering and non-engineering aspects of the team.

My team has generally honored seniors for their time and dedication by nominating 1-2 for Dean's List.

This was my year that I would be nominated, but I guess not anymore. I didn't want it for the college application. I wanted it as something to remember my dedication and the organization that changed me into a leader.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

It seems the consensus is the interview process is flippin' awesome, but the restriction of nominating only juniors and sophomores is kind of a downer.

Maybe FIRST should have given a little heads up to this? Instead of dropping the bomb for the incoming season, let teams know a season ahead that the change would be coming; that way no seniors-to-be would be "cheated".

Obviously it's too late to do anything about it now, but that seems like it would have been a more solid course of action.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Indeed. And it seems you are still getting nutrition from it. (Shouldn't you be in school, kid?)

OK, it's been said, but I like the interview thing (and request Skype-like considerations at District CMPs), but will take a wait & see attitude on the So/Jr thing. Seems kinda limiting.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I think the big underlying issue is that FIRST and Teams view the Dean's List award very differently.

Teams want to recognize the students with the most/best/lasting contributions to their team and the broader FIRST community, often whom are seniors who have a proven record of dedication.

FIRST wants to promote the award as something akin to a National Merit Scholar award, which universities like to tout in their recruiting numbers.

It's prestige for the deserving student, vs. prestige for the universities who recruit Dean's List winners.

For 2 years, FIRST has recommended teams choose Juniors, as they would be given preference, yet teams kept nominating Seniors -- and Seniors kept winning.

I won't presume to know the inner workings of FIRST headquarters, but while Frank has been the herald of positive changes, I feel like this change was forced in by other powers, as it's clearly part of an agenda which doesn't mesh with the intentions demonstrated by teams in their nominations, or even the judges for the award who continued to recognize seniors despite the award's stated preference for juniors.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

This:

My initial problem with the "we favor the Juniors" policy is that puts the Seniors at a disadvantage... and now excludes them entirely! But my real problem with it is that the driving reason why FIRST is doing it is to give themselves recognition (by being associated with these excellent students during the college application process)... FIRST gets little recognition by Seniors getting the award... but FIRST ideals are celebrated most by just giving it to the students who "get it" the most!

It's sad that a program as great as FIRST still has selfish people* making the decisions... who will sometimes stop acting in teams' best interests.

P.S. The interviews are probably a good idea. Probably volunteer-taxing to conduct... but worthwhile.

*For the record, I think all people are inherently selfish... This isn't a dig against FIRST, just me wishing it wasn't the case.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

See below:

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

This is the part that FIRST is missing - while intended to help with college admissions (which it does), many would honestly just like to see their efforts recognized. College brownie points are just a plus to these kids. As said somewhere before in the thread, some of these kids pour their hearts and souls into these programs in an attempt to grow them and, thus, inspire even more students. Isn't that what FIRST is all about? I believe these are the students that should be recognized.

Yes. I do not think, at least without warning, that the correct way to "fix" the award is to brute force us into the intent of the award.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I totally agree with this.

Looking at how FIRST defined the Dean's List Award in the 2013 game manual:
I see a lot of parallels between the Chairman's Award and Dean's List (and for that matter, the WFA)-- the awards are for teams (or people) who exemplify the ideals of FIRST. Those that rise to the top of the competition are those that fulfill the intent of the award for the sole reason of wanting to win, but because they genuinely believe in FIRST's mission and that it's the right thing to do. It cheapens the idea of the award-- recognizing FIRST's ideals to repurpose the award towards another end. On the other hand, I'm very happy that there will undoubtedly be some Sophomores and Juniors who wouldn't have otherwise been considered for the award in time for their college application process.

On a separate but related note, I really hope that FIRST will introduce some sort of Dean's List equivalent for FTC in the next season or so. There are some brilliant high school students in FTC who will never even have a chance of getting the same recognition that their FRC friends do just because of circumstances out of their control. If FIRST is really aiming towards Dean's List being a "college application thing," I hope we'll see an announcement soon to the benefit of FTC students.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm hoping FIRST sees this, because I have an idea that would satisfy everyone.

If I recall correctly you can nominate 2 people. Maybe FIRST can require teams to nominate one Sophomore/Junior and the second person can be of any grade level. Equal consideration of all grade would continue.

Nomination 1: Required Sophmore/Junior
Nomination 2: optional Sophomore/Junior/Senior

This system would put more Sophomores/Juniors in the pool or nominations, increasing the likelihood of Sophomores/Juniors winning (which FIRST just showed they want), but still giving an equal chance to seniors.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Based on the information I received first hand from FIRST at the Dean's List-Supplier's Summit, I learned then that the Dean's List is highly correlated with FIRST's expectation of such recipients and the goal of maximizing their opportunities in getting into universities.
I would have actually been disappointed with the idea we could no longer nominate seniors, but after hearing some of the rationales and intents, I cant complain.

Good luck to all new future finalists and recipients at CMP in 2014.
It was definitely life changing for our 2013 winner at CMP.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm not quite ready to jump on the "the interviews rock" bandwagon yet. Well, no, actually, I think the interviews do rock, but this sentences worries me quite a bit:

As Madison and Devon pointed out, I would hate--and argue we should all dislike--if any nominees non-DChamp teams cannot logistically get to their interview. For those that don't know, there were something like 200 teams in 2013, ~50 MAR, ~150 FiM, that would not have been at an event with DL judging. (Note that I'm not asking how many non-Championship nominees have become finalists. To be honest, I'd be surprised if it was that many, but it shouldn't matter. Every one deserves the shot they earned.)

I hope they allow something like Skype/phone, but if not, I'd like to issue a call to action for all district teams. So MAR and FiM, and yes, for the very-full plates of new PNW and NEFIRST: Let's make sure every nominee that wants to do their interview can get there. FIRST has handed us another imperative for a grassroots effort--lucky us districters are so experienced at those now. ;) I see some "adopt a DL nominee for Champs" programs in our future. But really, who wouldn't want to do that?


EDIT: I'm liking the "one required/one optional" method for senior/junior.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I don't have any data my back this up, but I feel like your claim that teams don't agree with FIRST on who to nominate is a blanket statement. I know atleast one team that values giving the award to Juniors: my own. Maybe my team is just the exception rather than the norm, but I seriously hope we aren't the only one.

Also: "It's prestige for the deserving student, vs. prestige for the universities who recruit Dean's List winners" is an extreme generalization. The real situation is "Prestige for the most deserving student vs. prestige and tangible benefits to the very deserving student." Prestige to a university is just a side effect.

I'm not saying I agree that teams should be forced to nominate Sophmores and Juniors. I'm saying that nominating Sophmores and Juniors is something that teams should really consider practicing even if they weren't forced to.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm not very sure how I feel about this. In all honesty, I am a Junior who will probably now be nominated for deans list (there is only one other junior), and yet I feel hesitant with this new rule. I feel that both of our leading senior members deserve this recognition and I'd much rather see them rewarded for their achievements than me. Now it's kind of hard to know that my team can't even bring up a discussion about putting in our extremely deserving seniors for this award. At the same time, I do understand that this can impact a juniors college application while it is too late for a seniors, but I'm a personal believer in awards being more about what you did to get them then what you get for winning them.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

It also puts quite a restriction on teams who don't get students for 3-4 years. 190 (Junior/Senior high school only) and 1717 (Seniors only team, IIRC) come to mind. For 190, they can only nominate Juniors, which are on their first year on the team. 1717 is all seniors, so they can never nominate anyone.

I understand the rationale, and I'm all for strongly encouraging Sophomore and Junior nominations, but making it a hard rule seems a little ignorant of the fact that not all teams are in a position where a Sophomore/Junior nomination makes sense, or is even possible.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I feel like FIRST has really messed this one up. Teams should have been given a head's up for this season that a change like this is going to happen. I like the proposal that requires one of the nominees to fit the "new" rules, but leave the other nominee open to seniors if a team so chooses. It seems to me like FIRST is looking out for themselves and their prestige and not for the students.

I do think the interview process is a great step in the right direction. It has to be very difficult to get a good read on a nominee based on how well the nominating mentor can write.

I really, really hope FIRST listens to the community and revises the NO SENIOR rule (or at least delay it a season to give teams time to re-evaluate their students).

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

For once, I kind of disagree with this change from Frank, at least for 2014. The award should be about inspiration a student provides and recognition of that.

Maybe it would be better for the change to take place in 2015, or not at all. As someone who knows a few seniors who are worthy of recognition, I'm not a huge fan of this new rule.

Sorry Frank!

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Aren't Sophomores/Juniors inherently at a disadvantage when put up against a senior? By the simple virtue of being around longer, seniors have done more, and very likely have more leadership on their team (In our team, all captains have been seniors for 7 years, until this year with our first Junior as a captain).

So, even if Juniors are preferred, judges likely look at the students and think "Hmmm... A senior who is the captain of the team and did all this stuff for the past three years, or a Junior with 2 past years and less team leadership?"

So, having seniors eligible has probably ended up going against FIRST's preference for Juniors. Just something to keep in mind during the discussion.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Yes, it was a blanket statement. The generalization is based off reading previous comments in this thread. I fully acknowledge that I don't speak for every team, but circumstantially, I'd argue the majority represented in this thread hold a similar viewpoint.

I did not mean to imply the junior (or sophomore) would not be somewhat deserving, nor that they would not attain prestige, but rather that they may not be the most deserving. We nominated a very deserving junior last year, so I'm not arguing that juniors shouldn't be nominated, or only seniors should.

And herein lies the source of consternation: we're being forced to ignore seniors who may potentially be the most deserving student.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

That is true, but I have seen sophomores and juniors who have taken on high roles of leadership. On my team, we have had plenty of Vice Presidents who were Sophomores (even currently!) and presidents who were Juniors, who also were drivers, designed key components, and so on and so forth.

In addition, FIRST is springing this on us so suddenly.

This is something a lot of current seniors have been working for. We have all toiled away countless hours working with FRC and mentoring FLL teams, partly so we can get some recognition and hope to win this prestigious award. Because of this new decision, I bet that a lot of seniors (me included) are disappointed that they did not even have a chance. (In the past, the seniors have usually been the ones recommended) If this is something FIRST is really bent upon, they need to let us know at least a season in advance.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I am really torn about this one. As a team mentor this takes away our ability to reward a hard working senior student.
BUT
I will always be grateful to FIRST for as a junior my daughter was chosen. It opened so many doors that she is now at one of the top engineering schools in the country. For us as a family it was worth about 100K in scholarships and the benefits for her will not stop there.
Unfortunately senior just do not get the full benefits of the award.
I’m still torn

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

The thing I'm seeing with a lot of the statements in here is a general disagreement over the intent/purpose of the award. Some view it as recognition, in the sense of "singleing out" these successful students for their accomplishments, others (and FIRST's stated intent) view it as being directly correlated to colleges recognizing these students during the admissions process. As someone who just went through the admissions process with DL Finalist on his resume, here's my two-cents(and a topic discussed extensively in this thread):

For my college applications, I applied to four schools, and based off my academics(which put me in the top 10 class rank of a not-so-competitive HS) two of those four were schools that I was 100% certain I would get into, and the other two were two that I was pretty sure I would get in, but definitely wasn't a "shoe-in"(this is ignoring the fact that at most school's, you're chances of getting in are a lot higher with Early Action, something I did for every school). Now, I got into every school I applied to, but the only school that ever gave any correspondence in regards to being a DL finalist was WPI-and I'm pretty sure that was before I even applied.

Now, when being told the average SAT scores and overall average demographics in regards to the incoming class at the College of Engineering at my school(somewhere between 600-900 students I believe), my SAT scores were below average, by about 20 or 30 points(this was combined reading/math) and my GPA fit in fine(though I take every GPA rating with a grain of salt-many schools do it in strange ways, mine included). However, upon talking to various people, it seems that the amount of merit aid I got(ie. money not taking into account my financial need) was higher than others with similar GPAs and higher than others with higher SAT scores. So, in that sense, I don't know if it was DL(no one I spoke to about this was a fellow FIRST-er) or FIRST as a whole that helped me, but my essay did involve DL, so I'm inclined to say FIRST helped me in that sense.

Another thing I'd like to point out is another "line of interest" in last year's manual regarding DL:

Now, I might just be viewing this out of context, as the paragraph goes on to describe the "hierarchy" of winning the award, but I do recall reading something where FIRST compared/stated that they hope for the award to become like NMS in that colleges recognize it as a very prestigious honor. I don't think it's any secret that college recognition is FIRST's overall intent/goal of this. They want colleges to recognize the value of FIRST programs, which in turn will lead to schools/students realizing the value of these programs

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

If FIRST doesn't want to choose between College Recognition and Accomplished Student Recognition, why not make two different awards? Make the Dean's List into what they have as of today - an award intended to aid exemplary students in their college efforts, and make another award (for the purpose of this post, I will call it the Student Role-Model Award) that recognizes great achievement and accomplishment in FIRST.

The Dean's List award could be focused on Sophomore and Junior students working on the college process, and the Student Role-Model award would be achievable by students of all grade levels, from the super enthusiastic and driven freshman, to the accomplished and well-known seniors, and everyone in between.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I think the interview component is probably going to make it easier to choose the right winners. On the other hand, we were in the habit of not telling our nominee(s) until after the event (much as our students don't tell the Woodie Flowers nominee until after the nominated event), so we're going to have to make some adjustments there.

On the grade thing, I can see why they're doing it, but I wish they were adding the interview this year and phasing in the new class limits next year so that candidates that might have gotten overlooked last year as Juniors might get another shot, and to make sure that teams that had nominated all Seniors had a chance to not skip a class. I don't see Sophomores as likely to be terribly competitive except in rare cases, though, since the award criteria are looking for a track record of leadership.

I really don't like that this is going to effectively disqualify D'Penguineers, and it seems like it would be in the spirit of this award being useful in college applications to have alternate eligibility rules for international teams in differently structured educational systems.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Because(and especially with the interview component) that just becomes too much. Also it makes them basically the same thing. It would be a confusion for "casuals" in that to "random person discovering a FIRST competition" they see two awards with arbitrary differences and could easily think, "oh so which one's better?" The complexity this would add is unnecessary (much in the sense that at some competitions, the major robot awards could, in theory, be interchangeable).

I view the "major awards" of FIRST(ie. those that recognize the ideals of FIRST) in this way:
Chairman's-Teams
Woodie Flowers-Mentors
DL-Students.

They can't give a separate award that would be defined as JUST for college recognition. That's what scholarships are for.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Steven, I think the point is more that FIRST has two definitions of what the purpose of Dean's List is-- it's to recognize students that exemplify FIRST's ideals, but it's also to help deserving FIRST students get a leg up in college admissions and financial aid.

The problem that I think is causing the most problems is the specific edge case of this transition year-- that there are some seniors that due to team tradition or other circumstances were not applied for last year, who now can never have the opportunity to be a Dean's List finalist or winner. Sure there's some problems with just the principle of limiting Dean's List to just sophomores and juniors, but it would have been much easier to stomach if some of this year's seniors weren't left out in the cold. The transition could have been smoother, but I think ultimately the change will end up for the better.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm conflicted on the Junior/Sophomore change. I totally am on board in terms of helping the students get into colleges, but I have personally have trouble nominating a student I have only seen in their first two years of high school, during which students typically haven't reached the level of maturity I like to see in Dean's List Winners. Naturally, there are plenty of exceptions.

The quotes I selected above are representative of my primary complaint- FIRST very heavily emphasizes inspiration and recognition. To me, this change eliminates the chance to recognize both one generation of students (short term) and students who don't truly begin to shine until they are seniors for any of a number of reasons.

I also would hope that many of the same characteristics that define our Dean's List winners would show on their college applications as well, whether or not the students have the title to reinforce their claims. I know it doesn't always work that way, but that's my ideal world.

As a senior Dean's List finalist in 2010, I know first-hand that the award comes too late for some colleges. Others you can slip in it just before the deadline. I do not feel like I got burned. I am incredibly proud to be a Dean's List finalist, and am appreciative of the recognition, even though it did not help me get into any colleges.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I don't like this at all. Just because a student won't have the opportunity to put it on a college application, don't disallow them from winning. Is that all Dean's list means to FIRST? Something that you can put on an application? Jeesh.

Also, I disagree with interviewing. It really doesn't let students on drive teams even be eligible. Just like how we don't have drive team members on Chairman's award teams. Drive team members are most often the leaders of the teams...the ones deserving the Dean's list award. They don't have time to leave for an interview.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

This is definitely not the case on some teams. On smaller teams, yes, often the drive team are the team leaders, but on large teams they aren't always the leaders. Also, the blog states that interviews go less than 5 minutes. As someone who was on drive team for 3 years, I definitely can say that at every competition I've been to I would have had 5 minutes to spare, especially for something like this...

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm going to toss my two cents in here...bare in mind that I graduated HS in 2011, before the Dean's list was even an award (I'm pretty sure anyways):

Interviews: good idea. The community has hit the dead horse enough on this. An interview does a much better job of allowing the judges to see the true qualities of a person. It is easy enough for someone to seem enthusiastic on paper but be apathetic when it comes to the interview. This situation is now mitigated. Good job here.

Now, the limitation to 'not-seniors' is interesting. To me, the biggest satisfaction I got from FRC was seeing 2 students take a team that had basically disbanded, and rebuild a bigger, stronger, deeper team with more school support than I could have ever imagined. Do I think that I influenced them? I like to think so. Additionally, the award 2421 in 2010 at DC (Engineering Excellence) is a huge climax in my FRC memory. I smile whenever I walk into my room and see that trophy sitting on the shelf.
Is it right to recognize the students that contribute greatly to the FRC community? ABSOLUTELY.
However, I feel that this whole award is missing the point: often times, the greatest students are not the ones that do the most work or recruit the most students or fund raise the most, but the student who, singlehandedly, motivates and drives the entire team. The award, in my opinion, does not tend to recognize this student, even though they are, IMO the critical link in the team. If a student were to really take charge, take ownership, and drive the rest of team to do the same, then I would want to recognize them on the team level first, making sure that people knew what this student did to make the TEAM successful......

Now, back to my thermo assignment..

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

The Dean's List was started during the 2010 FRC season.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Does anyone have the stats for the DL?
Looking for the year, number of finalist, finalist grades, winners, and winner’s grade.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

PM me; we've been collecting stats on finalists and winners.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

To all the students who are upset about the Seniors change - go off and prove FIRST wrong then in this one. Show why you are even stronger candidates for this award, and DONT do it for the award. Probably not much more than 200 alumni (out of how many THOUSANDS of students?!?) have gone on to make a significant difference in FIRST after their senior year, and not a single one of them EVER did it for an award - because there wasn't one. Many of them did it before there were even scholarships to the colleges they wanted to attend. Be leaders on your teams, help your teams win the Chairmans Awards, and Engineering Inspiration Awards and represent them to Judges, younger students, FLL kids, and people everywhere to show them what FIRST gave you and use THAT as your motivation, not some silly piece of paper that you were going to shove behind the pile of awards you already have (or already wish you had). Just like there are MANY MANY amazing mentors out there who may never get recognized as Woodie Flowers Award Winners, there are many many students out there who will never and never even got the chance to be recognized as Deans List Award winners. It doesnt make those mentors or students any less important to FIRST and it doesnt make them any less important to teams. If your team doesnt already have a way of recognizing its seniors, then its missing an opportunity to thank kids for all the hard work and dedication... but in my opinion, that is not FIRST's job.

So for a minute... lets peel back the onion and look at the reality of the situation. FIRST has been hurting for years to find a really really good process for tracking its alumni and for making sure they go on to do bigger and better things that prove FIRST has had an impact and is making a real difference. Many of us know in our hearts this is true, but they need the stats to back it up. Now, jump back to the Deans List Award - they wanted to select the best of the best students to help be role models for other students and provide much needed student input into some of the changes FIRST wants to implement. FIRST also wants students who are going to CONTINUE to spread the word of FIRST, and as 99% of all FIRST alumni will tell you, its smart to "take a year off"... that translates into a very tough sell for FIRST to get previous students back into the program, back showing people what a success FIRST was. And how many of them disappear into the wind? Some of my past teams "best of the best" students are no longer much involved in FIRST... sure they may come back to volunteer at an event one year, or they may stop by and say hi to the current team... but they are no longer "selling" FIRST to the masses. IMO FIRST wants to hook kids that are still involved in the program and who they can utilize for another year or two to help build a strong base of student leaders who will help track other alums and promote the program. Look at the explosion of the Facebook groups, chat rooms and former Deans List nominees and winners who now keep in touch, and are their own community. If FIRST can really tap into that potential, it has a HUGE marketing ability. And in the end, all corporations - profit or non-profit, need to justify their product and provide statistics to back it up. So while, yes, it is nice to recognize students for all their hard work, the reality of it is that FIRST needs a way to tap into student leaders to further its mission. And this is it.

And for all those of you who are Alumni and are still around, be honest, how much more inspired were you your senior year? I was on my HS team for 3 years. ALL 3 years I won the team's MVP award (which wasn't specific to year - and the only HS award I display to this day is my sophomore year one), but honestly, in my senior year - I was no more effective or inspired than I was in my junior year. I had senioritis, and I was working on getting into colleges. I skipped a few morning CAD classes to go out to breakfast, and I skipped a week to go skiing in Colorado. While that didn't stop me from contributing to a great robot, nor from becoming our team's first student coach, or from many other things I accomplished that year... winning some award my senior or junior year would not have made a difference in who I was or how much FIRST meant to me. I didn't need FIRST to tell me I was going to go on to do great things, I was determined by myself to do so, and to prove to everyone what I had gotten out of it.

Over my many years in FIRST I have gotten to know tons of amazing students, and in these last few years, I've had the opportunity to get to know a lot more from different teams. I would sincerely hope that each of them, while perhaps disappointed in the lack of opportunity to get to go up to FIRST for the DL summit, doesn't change their mind about FIRST or how inspired they are because they can no longer receive a certificate that validates their accomplishments. True leaders don't require recognition to do a great job. They do it for the satisfaction of the result of their successful leadership. And they don't need credit for it.

And for the mentors who are disappointed, find OTHER ways of recognizing your amazing seniors. Your team can do it on your own. And honestly, I feel the writing was on the wall, they've been encouraging this for a while. If you feel disappointed you "messed up" for your current seniors by not nominating them last year, then do something else special for them - or better yet, help them realize they don't need FIRST's signature to know that they are important to the future.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

"Me too"... the interview sounds like a great idea, the "no-seniors" thing, not so much. While I don't entirely grasp why FIRST feels that Dean's List winners need the award to help get into university (Really, are there Dean's List winners who wouldn't qualify for a great university without the award? REALLY?) I'll also accept that they get to make the rules.

Here's some ideas that could make things interesting:

1) The regional Dean's List award winners are chosen as Grade 10/11 students. This makes them elegible to win a Championship Dean's List award as a Grade 12 student. The Championship Dean's List winner is chosen based on what the student did after winning their regional Dean's List.

2) As a teacher leading a team, I always wanted to celebrate the contributions of our Grade 12 students. Some of them had made a four or five year committment to the team and deserved to be recognized in their final year. We know that FIRST responds very well to financial incentives... so perhaps a Kickstarter type campaign to raise a couple hundred thousand dollars to sponsor an award for Seniors only. It might not be as exclusive as the Dean's List... maybe it is just a special medal and each team gets to select one recipient who receives the medal at their final FRC event. Donors to the campaign could negotiate with FIRST on how they would like outstanding seniors to be recognized.

Jason

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I guess perspective in this change is important. FRC existed for 18 years under many different hats before this award was even added to the stable. As most here can attest, that doesn't mean there weren't any "Dean's List"-quality students for that period of time, whatever you define that to be. There are a number of alumni on here who graduated before this award ever came into existence, so obviously something else has brought you back.

I'm not a fan of the change only because it seems very urgent and reactive, unlike all the other changes that have taken place over the last year. Teams who traditionally nominate seniors for this award (if a 4-year practice is a "tradition") and teams who live in areas where the criteria doesn't match their college application process are damaged by this by not being given time to adjust. Were this to come about in 2015, I think I would understand it more.

In 2012, my team moved from nominating the graduating class for the award to nominating those in the junior class. As far as the student leadership was concerned, we didn't really care because when we weren't plugging away at the robot, we were identifying the future student leadership and transitioning. After we bagged the robot, seniors lead the events and then we were pretty much done, acting in advisory roles and polishing up our high school careers.

I understand it's different for all teams, but I think making this limit shifts the award's intent to something that works to recognize students and teams to something that works to recognize AND serve the mission of the student, team, and FIRST. FIRST wasn't getting much out of this award from seniors. A Dean's List finalist who is a junior can now take charge of programs and initiatives throughout the entire region in their senior year, as I know a few are. That serves the student, team, and FIRST.

There are plenty of ways to recognize your students and mentors. I know we always did at the end of every season. This award was the only award that stood the chance of not helping to further the mission of FIRST--teams keep team awards on their resume, WF(F)A winners stay on their teams and with FIRST forever, but DL(F)A's didn't come with that guarantee. With this move, they just might.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I am very disappointed in these changes. Deserving students are deserving students. Period. Also, the interview might well be disruptive to the busy Deans list nominees (they are exemplary students, so they will probably be busy at the competition).

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I'm sorry, but some of these arguments justifying the change in eligibility don't hold water, in my opinion.

Paraphrasing what several of you have said, "Seniors who win the award aren't going to do anything for FIRST. Juniors are going to stay involved forever." This argument is ridiculous. What's to say the Juniors don't just quit FIRST after they graduate? Why would a senior who has invested enough in the program to justify winning a Dean's List award just abandon FIRST more than any other student? Why don't we nominate only Freshmen for Dean's List, because then we can get 3 whole years of leadership out of them before they abandon FIRST when they graduate?

Tracking alumni? I heard Dean charge the Dean's List winners with this at CMP. Are you saying that Seniors are worthless in keeping track of their peers, but Juniors will be awesome at it?

Giving the Dean's List award to seniors doesn't further the mission of FIRST?!? If recognizing and celebrating an individual or group who embodies the ideals of FIRST can't be seen as furthering the mission of FIRST, maybe we should do away with Woodie Flowers, Chairman's, and FIRST Founders Award. You get what you celebrate.

As much as I disagree with the change, at least the argument from FIRST about helping with college applications has some merit -- though there are many detractors on this justification as well, mostly from outside the US.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

It is a ridiculous argument, and, I understand you're paraphrasing, but I haven't seen anyone say/imply that in such an extreme way.

The argument is that seniors who win DL are less likely to have a direct impact on inspiring/being a symbol/influence on their specific program(ie. team, region). Juniors are much more likely to have this influence. Junior DL's are much more likely to DIRECTLY be involved the same ways they were as they enter their senior years.

Example: A junior becomes a Dean's List finalist. Now, in their senior year, they can continue being 100% involved with their team as a student. Now, freshman entering the team can see this student as a symbol/influence throughout their FIRST career.

On the flipside, a senior DLF either is not there in their "home region"/on their "home team" and everything a new freshman hears about them is secondhand, unless they immediately come back to mentor(which is an argument/discussion for a different thread).

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, freshman/those new to FIRST can easily be much more receptive to a DL finalist who is still a student-it presents a goal that is realistic to someone with no idea what FIRST is like. It's a much clearer, more realistic goal in saying, "I wanna be just like that senior!" as opposed to imagining them trying to think, "I guess maybe I can be just like that new mentor who was on the team last year..."*

Basically, aside from the college admissions argument, FIRST seems to want there to be firsthand, recognized major influences still being students in the program.

*yes, this paragraph is jumbled, but I hope it got my point across

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I won't repeat what many have already said, so in the words of Inigo Montoya, "I will 'splain. No. There is too much, I will sum up."

1) Interviews: YES. I feel that giving judges face-to-face time with the students is worth whatever logistical complications it may add. Sure, these particular students will probably be busy, but they can spare 10 minutes for an interview.

2) Sophomore/Junior restrictions: I'm probably bias, as I am a senior this year, but I'll try to be un-bias). I feel the same as many others have said. Why completely eliminate them from the running? Many seniors deserve recognition. At the very least, give an advance notice of a year for those teams who traditionally nominate seniors.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

A lot of seniors who graduate from high school, and consequently from student-hood of FRC, tend to go off to colleges to earn the higher education the program is designed to inspire them to pursue. A lot of juniors in the program tend to stay in high school for another year before they graduate and go off to college. Teams often have a habit of crafting legends of notable alumni, but may have limited future interaction with the former participant. Witnessing the clout a person and team can earn firsthand from earning a DLFA and watching it immediately turn into positive energy for the student, the team, and FIRST, I support the change. I don't have to fall into a trap of slippery-slope logic to think otherwise.

Dean has charged all students and teams with tracking alumni, and the success hasn't really come out in spades. Now, say you have a Dean's List winner that is an active student working with active alumni and parents to craft such a tracking system, it could (and does) prove to be effective in some cases.

You're right in saying that we get what we celebrate. Every student who puts their heart and mind into this program is rewarded, as is every mentor, volunteer, judge, and executive, and they are all celebrated at every FIRST event.

Speaking pragmatically, we need more than celebration. We need blue chips. We need students and teams now more than ever to go out and make this program more accessible financially, more successful in team quality, bigger and brighter in scope--the program has grown its wings and has stood at the edge of a steep cliff for some time, inching ever closer to the drop. Whether FIRST falls or flies over the next decade depends on a lot of things, but not squeezing every ounce of potential out of your brightest stars is a disservice to everyone in the program, especially said "stars".

The other awards you mentioned of doing away with: Founder's Award, Woodie Flowers Award, Chairman's Award... how many sponsors, mentors, and teams have dropped off the face of the FIRST world? Next to zero. They continue to push ahead. How many Dean's List Finalists and winners have been lost in the wind?

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I've seen kids win DL who haven't done much after graduating, and I know plenty who didn't win who do a lot for FIRST and don't need the validation.

My concern is actually regarding kids and parents who might be mislead about how big of an impact something as small as being a Dean's List winner can be in the college admissions process. We all saw an example of this a few months back (if you want the link for that thread, PM me. I don't want to put anyone on the spot here).

I hope FIRST is very clear to kids and their parents about how much (or little) of an impact this can make for admissions at colleges. Also, working towards a Dean's List award should not be the motivation for hard work and dedication to this community, but I fear we would see more of it with this kind of emphasis being put on this award.

+$0.02

Additionally, I actually want some clarification from Frank about what kind of criteria the winners of Dean's List meet. What do the judges think sets these kids apart from the rest? How do you keep track of their involvement in FIRST after they graduate? What do you do with the winners who don't stay involved in FIRST after graduation? I like the interview idea because it will bring forward more kids who truly are dedicated to FIRST and STEM and don't do it for an award. I just hope interviews won't interfere with their involvement in various parts of a team during competitions.

One more thing - are all the Dean's List essays available to read somewhere? I would like to check them out.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

(Edited)

Update! Change reverted (as Chris pointed out below, better described as "compromised")! http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=119608

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

Change not reverted - Change delayed one year. There's still plenty to debate about. :)

And on that note: How would you feel if we changed the Woodie Flowers Finalist award so that only college juniors, college seniors, and the unemployed were eligible? I mean, the WFFA could really help them get a job, so why would we want to give the award to people who are already employed? How would they benefit?

Clearly ridiculous, I know, but I'm having trouble coming up with an argument against that proposal that doesn't also apply to the Dean's List Finalist award.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

We should showcase our best. WFFA is unrestricted because a great mentor is hard to define. DL should be unrestricted because a great student is even harder. Sometimes it takes a few years for the students to grow and restricting it to students that are relatively young just so they can use it on their college apps is, frankly, silly. We should celebrate those who deserve to be celebrated.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

+1 for this. Well said.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

I feel that I can't really add much that hasn't been said already but, this. An award should go to who deserves it the most, not who it can benefit the most.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

How many WFFA's have you known that stopped participating in FRC immediately after winning the award?

To win either WFFA or DL, you pretty much have to be heavily invested in the program. That's a given. However, when major life changes happen, that investment can very easily stop. That's what tends to happen to people when they graduate - they go to college and stop participating in FRC. Some (hopefully many, but I don't have any numbers to back up a quantifiable statement) come back to FRC later, once they figure out college or graduate into the working world and have the time to commit again. But most don't participate the year after they graduate.

Now, some WFFA winners end up leaving the program shortly after they win... they could get married, have a kid, move for work, or any of a hundred life-altering events. But most WFFA winners I've known have continued on with their teams for years after winning. They continue to be an inspiration to their students, and to be involved with the broader FIRST community in their area. They stand there as a living example of what a mentor should be, not an invisible legend.

That's the difference between a student and a mentor. A mentor has an undefined time limit on their involvement with a program. A student has until they graduate.

Re: FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes
 

My apologies for reviving an old thread, but here's some info I got from a MAR info session yesterday at Duel on the Delaware regarding the Dean's List interviews:

All Dean's List nominees in MAR will be guaranteed an interview scheduled at one of the districts they attend (sounds like preferably the earliest one). No promises that it won't interfere with their team's matches or chairman's presentation schedule though, since those aren't scheduled until at the event. They are planning on having the interviewer being the same person that reads the nominee's essay. There will only be one interview per nominee per season (They hope to get down with all of the interviews during the first few weeks of competitions, if possible). Once the organizers get the info for which teams are submitting how many nominees and which teams are competing where, they will create a schedule for when/where each nominee will be interviewed. The nominees will then be narrowed down to a certain number of semifinalists that will be eligible to compete for Dean's List Finalist at the MAR Regional Championship.