Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

But this award from NASA has nothing to do with FIRST. FIRST has no control over it, it's not that they are "allowing" only US teams to get it.

And before NASA offered this particular award, there were also likely EI winners in the US who could not scrape together the registration fee for champs. So isn't this better?

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

NASA does not sponsor the Engineering Inspiration Award. NASA pays the entry fee to the World Championship for US teams that win EI. It is not under FIRST's "control." Payment *could* be made directly to teams so FIRST is removed from any administrative part of the sponsorship chain, but logistically, it makes sense for NASA to go through FIRST to pay entry fees on behalf of the teams it has chosen to sponsor. This is no different than at BMR this year, the Indiana Space Grant Consortium decided to sponsor each team from Indiana who qualified to go to the World Championship at that regional. Any teams from outside Indiana who qualified wouldn't receive a dime of this sponsorship. I didn't hear any complaints about that.

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

Giving a reward for winning an award is sponsoring that award. And it is under FIRST's control because they allow NASA to do so; the Engineering inspiration Award is a FIRST award not a NASA award, so FIRST was the ones that had to allow NASA to stipulate the money to American winners of the reward.

I never knew that BMR had that kind of sponsorship from the ISGC, but you dont think it would be unfair if the winning alliance of BMR consisted of 2 Indiana teams and, say for the argument, 1 Florida team, that the ISGC giving the money needed to go to Champs to 2/3 of the winning alliance wouldnt be wrong? What if that Florida team was the alliance captain and those 2 other teams probably might not have won the regional without the Florida team? Would you still think it was right if that Florida team wasnt given that same reward and then couldnt go to Champs?

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

So broke US teams are better than broke International teams?

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

What? How is it that FIRST can decide how an agency uses its money again? You act like FIRST could call NASA and go "no, you MUST also give money to Canadians" and they'd say "lol okay sure no problem". You can't actually think that it's "under FIRST's control" who gets what money. The only option FIRST could have here is to decline NASA's sponsorship altogether, which is clearly ridiculous.

FIRST gives the award. NASA gives money to the American winners of that award, via FIRST. You're saying because FIRST gives the award out, they magically have the ability to tell NASA how to spend their money. That makes no sense at all.

It would be really cool if FIRST, Canada FIRST, etc. found an equivalent EI sponsor for Canadian teams. That'd be awesome. That said, it's not wrong that they haven't - it's not like getting organizations to part with $25,000 (5 Canadian events, assuming no Canadian teams win EI at US events) is easy to do. Three years ago every team had to pay if we won EI, and now a lot of teams don't - the teams from the country whose government is funding the winners of this award.

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

Did I say that?

I meant that it's a good thing someone saw an opportunity to help these teams out, and it's better that we have less teams in that situation. As has been pointed several times, it's unfortunate that NASA has to comply with various regulations that prevent them from supporting everyone, but at least they're supporting someone. And still, even if it were entirely at their discretion (perhaps it is, I don't think we know for sure), why can we judge their motives and enforce "fairness" rules on who gets the money? It's their money! Just like any other sponsor of any FIRST team ever.

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

Playing devil's advocate for the sake of playing devil's advocate is dangerous business.
If you have a new argument, please make it. Otherwise, read what others have written and move along.

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

Not really sure why you're arguing here, dodar. I'm fairly positive that all regional FIRST organizations have the authority to find and accept/deny sponsorships for teams who qualify at their events.

NASA can do what it wants, just like the board of Mid-Atlantic Robotics can do what it wants with the money it gets from sponsors. MAR teams have funds available to assist with registration costs if we qualify. Does that responsibility fall on FIRST? No. Should other teams be upset that they can't have our funds? No, because they are designated for our teams. I'm fairly positive that the strong FIRST organizations in states and in Canada have their own designated pool of funds to help their teams when/if they qualify for an event they cannot afford. If the smaller FIRST organizations don't have their own pool of funding for their teams, then they should start doing so now.

The idea of declining a sponsorship because it doesn't apply to all teams is pretty childish and would be irresponsible of FIRST, and this is coming from a team that doesn't qualify for a NASA award because we are in districts.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Chris is me again."

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

Why don't you ask the Hawaiian Kids? They were captain of the winning alliance, with 2 Indiana partner teams. You could make a pretty strong argument that they were essential to their alliance's victory. I'm sure you can find dozens of examples of this throughout FIRST.

Organizations have the right to spend their money where they please, including rewarding teams for accomplishments if they meet certain criteria.

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

Organizations have the right to spend there money/resources however they please. There are plenty of advantages in first caused by where you live that often affect a teams performance more than monetary donations. Some areas of the world do not have a strong of a technical background as others, does this mean that teams outside those areas should turn away mentors just to make it "fair" for the others. No it would be crazy to. Every region has there strengths and weakness's and whats important to remember here is that those strengths are passed on to the kids... There is never a bad way to sponsor a team. In the end its all about what knowledge and experiences we can pass on to the students to help them make better choices in life.

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

I will give the winner of the Hatboro-Horsham Creativity Award $1--provided they are from Exton, PA. Try and stop me, FIRST. They don't have the right to. Even if I sent the check to the team's FIRST account, what are they going to do? Not cash it? If so, I offer to hand their driver a $1 bill. I don't need Dean or Frank's, or even Eric Zygmont's, permission to do this--though I doubt any would object beyond my waste of their time. (In fact, in the US, I have a 1st Amendment right to use money as speech, but that's a different story.)

This is not FIRST's doing or FIRST's right. It's NASA's--bound by US federal law. Just because they're requiring an award in addition to the common--virtually ubiquitous--location requirement (be near a JCPenney, known to local sponsor, from Indiana, Israeli, close enough to a Boeing plant to have their mentors) does not mean FIRST is somehow responsible for ensuring all locales are equal.

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

I'll chip in a dollar (Personally)! Siri: You never need my permission...

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

No. However, NASA sponsors... wait for it... ZERO awards.

Instead, they have offered a sponsorship to teams that *complete a requirement*. This is the part that all devil's advocates WILL fall on! Any sponsor can set their own requirements for who gets the sponsorship, including specifying that certain teams, singular or plural, do NOT get a sponsorship regardless of otherwise qualifying. (Ask any NASA Grant applicant who did not complete their requirements from the previous year and are otherwise qualified!)

I'm guessing that FIRST's requirements had at least zero, and probably less, to do with this particular aspect. See my previous post in this thread about where the requirement may have come from.

Devil's advocate on your devil's advocate: Why do I care at all if I'm not in either one of those team categories? And, to answer myself: there are a number of positions that might care, so I'll go through a few.

--FIRST HQ--"Sure, it's not fair. Neither is this game." (Which is just about what Frank said.)
--Potential sponsor--"Hmm... Not too fair... maybe I can donate for some of the international teams... How about I sponsor any team from Canada who wins EI, or any team that wins EI on U.S. soil?"
--Average Joe--"So?"

Just a note from the rules, Championship EI is apparently not restricted to Regional/District EI winners (or hasn't been in the past--I remember hearing about one team winning at Champs that hadn't won at a regional). As far as making it there, there have been teams who weren't able to go because of funding anyway--RAS, winner, RCA...--so it's just a general problem. (Also note that said funds are mainly travel, which NASA doesn't cover.)

Re: FRC Blogged - Frank Answers Fridays: September 20, 2013
 

The world is not fair, get used to it.
This could go on and on.

It is interesting that no one has brought up the other NASA grants that are certainly advertised heavily in FIRST (As well they should be..) I don't think that rookie teams from Canada or Mexico qualify for them either. Or any other non-US teams for the veteran grants.



Does that mean because EVERYONE can't qualify ..we throw out the opportunity for those that do?

When we walk down this path... we trod heavily...

The idea that FIRST would ever turn down money to help teams (other than for obvious reasons like Budweiser sponsoring the CMP in St. Louis) is preposterous.

I applaud what NASA has done for FIRST and I am not going to tell them I don't want their money because everyone can't qualify.

It is US taxpayer money ... when that money is spent it has to be spent by US federal government guidelines...

I love our Canadian and Mexican brothers... I want them to compete with us... I want them to be successful

moving along...