Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

It's the bottom left one. It said so at one point during the webcast and I recognize the announcer.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

It is webcast 3 on Code Red. Thanks for asking, guys!

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Can they fix the split screen picture?

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

The stream is on Blue Alliance GameDay.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Still getting: "This stream is currently unavailable on this domain at the broadcaster's request"

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I just saw and I don't know what to do. I will try to find out before tomorrow. Still on Code Red at least.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Code Red Appears to be the only place that the stream is allowed to be displayed.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Showing off air this morning, can someone ping them?

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I was watching it on theredalliance.com yesterday

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Redalliance has the Code Red webcast, looking good now.

#1 alliance is going to have to earn it the hard way.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Does anyone know if there is a recording of the regional? 1939 would really like to have a copy of the Chairman's introduction speech, and it would be fun to rewatch the final three matches.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Finals Match 2
Finals Match 3

Sorry 1939, we didn't record your Chairman's introduction speech (as hilarious as it was), but congratulations on the win and we hope to see you guys in St. Louis after Bayou.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Hi everyone,
HERE is a link to the Chairman's video. Congratulations to everyone and good luck in following competitions!

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Congratulations, Kuh-nig-its, on your Chairman's Award!

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

can some fill us in on the large foul point swings in the finals?

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure Final 2 was breaking the plane on red's low goal. Final 3 was herding the red ball into the blue low goal.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

For match 3 the inadvertant hitting of the red ball of 4522 while being pushed by the bomb squad and trying to pick up the blue ball they missed at about 1:27 minutes was penalized as herding.

I am unsure of all the match 2 penalties. One was the legitimate G40 penalty of the human player trying to catch the blue ball at 0:41 and leaning too far in. The other 3 penalties I was never told to my satisfaction what they might have been.

Congratulations to the regional winners 16, 3937, and 4500. Those last 3 games were emotional, hard fought good games and I am only sorry that this year's game has too many subjective penalties to try and referee. When everyone is asking what the penalties were a day later you know the game rules could use an update. You guys are awesome and good luck to the winners at Worlds.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

The penalty in match 3 was on 4090 for pushing the red ball into the blue low goal with ~5 sec left. Watch the red alliance driver station flip out when it happens.
Yes. Those were some awesome/stressful matches. Y'all played a very good game. Everybody I spoke with on your alliance was very proffesional after a tough loss. Good luck at Bayou. I hope we get to see you again at worlds.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I see what you are talking about. I can only relate what the referees told us when our team asked a ref what the penalty was for. I relayed what we were told in my previous post. Once again I feel the game is just too subjective if the referees dont even know what they are penalizing for. I have taken my feeling on technical fouls swinging games to the different appropriate posts on Chief Delphi to keep this thread in a celebratory mood about a fun regional and to celebrate your success.

We hope to win Bayou and see you at World's at well but with this game who knows? We tried to remain gracious and represent the Gracious Professional award as best we could after the final scores were announced. If anyone overheard any questionable comments it was not directed at any teams and was simply venting of high intensity emotions.

Great job 16, 3937, and 4500 again. 3937 we look forward to seeing you on our home court at the Bayou and hope you have a good time when you come visit.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Wow! This event was run so well.

Couple of things:

Thanks to Alan Anderson who was a great CSA! He helped our team and many other teams get their control systems working

Thanks to 1706 and 1939 for being great alliance members! We were so close to beating the #2 seed. You guys were great partners and we were honored to work with you guys!

Congrats to 16, 3937, and 4500 for winning. You guys played really well.

It was a really good experience and maybe the rest of our season will go good also!

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

To clarify and see the penalties myself, I watched the final match 2 video over again to find them. Apparently team 4522's catapult that sticks out of the back of their robot was protruding the plane of the red one point goal every time they backed into it, which was the reason for the 3 smaller fouls (I can provide the video if needed). Those fouls along with the 50 point technical added to the massive 110 points on the final score. After some discussion with the referees afterwards, the penalties could not all be assessed during the matches throughout the tournament because of the inconvenient layout of the touch screen GUI (to call a foul the ref had to leave the scoring screen and open a new window, thereby preventing them from keeping score). The touch screen GUI in particular needs to be improved to prevent any further match outcomes from varying with the score shown at the end of the match. That is a completely different thread, however.

On another note: Congratulations to 1939 on the Chairman's Award!

-John Taylor Novak

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

To keep the spirits of gracious professionalism high at the regional, we asked people to explain how they keep it GP. This is what we found out.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

A great story has to be shared about the Tennessee teams that attended the Arkansas Regional. There was horrible weather this week in Arkansas and Tennessee. The teams from Tennessee 3227,3516,3783, and 3961 all traveled together to the regional. Unfortunately they were unable to to the venue until late Thursday afternoon. The teams had some issues with their robots with inspection but they were able to be granted an extension to work at the venue Thursday night and Friday morning. Again unfortunately the bus driver had a diabetic stroke Thursday night which caused the team to have travel issues getting back to the hotel Thursday night. They still were able to work hard Friday morning to get their robots on the field with full inspections to compete at the event!

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Rank Team QS ASSIST AUTO T&C TELEOP Record (W-L-T) DQ PLAYED
1 16
22.00 430.00 311.00 290.00 619.00 11-1-0 0 12
2 1985
20.00 300.00 465.00 230.00 322.00 10-2-0 0 12
3 4522
18.00 400.00 326.00 250.00 553.00 9-3-0 0 12
4 5153
18.00 130.00 352.00 110.00 277.00 9-3-0 0 12
5 4532
16.00 290.00 291.00 220.00 376.00 8-4-0 0 12
6 1810
16.00 220.00 402.00 220.00 435.00 8-4-0 0 12
7 4092
16.00 170.00 310.00 200.00 478.00 8-4-0 0 12
8 2388
16.00 160.00 226.00 160.00 512.00 8-4-0 0 12
9 2992
14.00 290.00 326.00 130.00 547.00 7-5-0 0 12
10 3937
14.00 210.00 401.00 210.00 432.00 7-5-0 0 12
11 1706
14.00 210.00 381.00 140.00 391.00 7-5-0 0 12
12 3593
14.00 180.00 392.00 200.00 530.00 7-5-0 0 12
13 45
14.00 150.00 327.00 170.00 363.00 7-5-0 0 12
14 3666
14.00 110.00 383.00 140.00 329.00 7-5-0 0 12
15 3516
14.00 110.00 240.00 110.00 442.00 7-5-0 0 12
16 832
12.00 190.00 221.00 190.00 540.00 6-6-0 0 12
17 4849
12.00 170.00 320.00 160.00 252.00 6-6-0 0 12
18 2333
12.00 150.00 302.00 140.00 320.00 6-6-0 0 12
19 3160
12.00 150.00 245.00 210.00 614.00 6-6-0 0 12
20 3783
12.00 110.00 246.00 110.00 459.00 6-6-0 0 12
21 4490
12.00 100.00 224.00 150.00 603.00 6-6-0 0 12
22 1939
10.00 260.00 311.00 110.00 287.00 5-7-0 0 12
23 4500
10.00 240.00 223.00 90.00 371.00 5-7-0 0 12
24 2352
10.00 180.00 291.00 80.00 196.00 5-7-0 0 12
25 5178
10.00 170.00 271.00 140.00 322.00 5-7-0 0 12
26 418
10.00 160.00 452.00 220.00 257.00 5-7-0 0 12
27 4535
10.00 150.00 249.00 80.00 513.00 5-7-0 0 12
28 3784
10.00 140.00 247.00 130.00 482.00 5-7-0 0 12
29 5259
10.00 130.00 291.00 110.00 340.00 5-7-0 0 12
30 3961
10.00 120.00 222.00 50.00 255.00 5-6-0 1 12
31 3179
10.00 90.00 191.00 80.00 246.00 5-7-0 0 12
32 3227
10.00 40.00 167.00 90.00 269.00 5-6-0 1 12
33 3991
8.00 200.00 241.00 90.00 241.00 4-8-0 0 12
34 3350
8.00 110.00 227.00 130.00 365.00 4-8-0 0 12
35 5195
8.00 70.00 267.00 160.00 537.00 4-8-0 0 12
36 5006
6.00 160.00 249.00 80.00 563.00 3-9-0 0 12
37 4090
6.00 70.00 216.00 80.00 354.00 3-9-0 0 12
38 1209
4.00 80.00 280.00 130.00 229.00 2-10-0 0 12
39 2359
2.00 100.00 332.00 80.00 155.00 1-11-0 0 12
I have no idea how our team got 16 less teleoperated points than bomb squad?

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Thanks! We were wondering what those other penalties were. I have had several discussions with other referees in PM and they also explained the GUI system to me. Hopefully FIRST will fix that so the real time score will be more accurate. We learned a lot about the game this regional and know where we are going to focus our efforts in human player training and in robot improvements for our next Regional.

We really had a lovely time and hopefully we won't have to deal with snow at our next Regional. :-) Good night all, we had a long car drive back today.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Now that I'm home and able to form complete sentences again, thanks to everyone for an amazing regional.

We're all giddy and still slightly startled about the Chairman's win. Our students really put their hearts into it, and I'm so proud of them. I'm also incredibly proud of our Dean's List Finalist, Izzy Lloyd.

Thanks to 1706 for picking us and 3666 for being a great alliance partner. It was a pleasure working with both of you, and our alliance put up a heck of a fight. Hopefully we'll get a chance to try it again sometime.

Congratulations to the regional winners 16, 3937, and 4500 and to the finalists 2992, 4522, and 4090. You played some amazing matches, and I know it was a really emotionally charged result for everyone involved.

I'd also like to congratulate the Memphis teams for persevering in spite of everything. I was one of the inspectors that stayed late on Thursday to help, and I could see you were all completely exhausted after the ice storm and a rough trip in, but you kept working. It was a delight to see you all make it to the field Friday morning. I hope your bus driver is all right and that you've had a safe trip home.

Congratulations to 5259 on my favorite robot of the event. The leg lamp was a brilliant idea and a fairly accurate kicker. I smiled every time I saw it.

Thanks to Harding University and the regional planning committee for a very well run event. The new venue is great, and hopefully we'll be able to come back many times.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I just wanted to express our gratitude for being able to compete at the Arkansas Regional. We were really excited to be able to compete with and against some of the best teams in FIRST.

We thought that this regional was run exceptionally well and we are looking forward to coming back next year. Congratulations to all of the teams and their accomplishments.

I have to say that those finals matches were some of the most exciting moments that I have ever experienced. We were definitely disappointed and heartbroken at the outcome but we walked away with our heads high. I am so proud of our team and our alliance partners 2992 & 4090. They put up a heck of a fight.

We learned a great deal as a team this weekend from a competitive standpoint and through inspiration as well. We were in awe of the Bomb Squad's machine, their drive team & coach, and their team operations.

Thanks again for hosting such a wonderful event. We look forward to sharing a field with you all again soon.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

That column includes both regular and foul points, not just raw teleop.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

First, I want to say thanks to everyone in this thread for keeping it classy - putting both the "gracious" and "professional" in Gracious Professionalism. I was the scorekeeper for the event, and it felt completely awful to have to push the button and show a score with a different outcome because of additional fouls - twice. Having been a student on a team, I know something of what that feels like on the field. But the attitudes I've observed by teams on both sides of the finals have been exemplary, and this is what sets FIRST apart from other sports.

Second, congratulations to 16, 3937, and 4500 for the win. Seeing you playing at your peak was amazing. Equal congratulations to 4522, 2992 and 4090. You guys put on an incredible set of matches up to and during the finals, and proved that even the best teams are not invincible. I loved watching you play.


Correct. As said before, the technical foul was a G40.

Yes, the touchscreens and the GUI code running on them stand to be improved. They aren't very responsive (at least compared to what we've come to expect from cell phones and tablets) and have a lot of lag (which may be a software system issue). This year's system required switching back and forth between the scoring and foul screens, which was time consuming.

Correct. However, since this occurred with very little time left, there was no way for this to be added to the real-time score.


Finally, thanks to folks from 16, 3937, Harding University, Baxter, and the others who worked so hard to put on this event. It was a superb way to spend my spring break! :]

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

This is a sum score. It does not necessarily indicate the number of points your team scored in the qualifications as it is derived from alliance scores, vaguely similar to the way OPR works (very vaguely). It's generally a decent estimate though, so that many teleop points is quite an achievement.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I didn't get to watch as much of Arkansas as I should. Do you know if these fouls were called much in quals? I've been watching a lot of streams the last two weeks and I've seen many teams violate said rule and not get penalized for it...

Congratulations on the win. It's a beautiful machine with a great driver.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Sircedric4 your team is to be commended for the example of gracious professionalism you exhibited. As an impartial observer of the entire regional I am absolutely sickened by what transpired. There was a collective rumble that went through the crowd of non Arkansas spectators as the ultimate result was revealed. There is a large faction that saw this for what it was. The fact that the regional winner was determined after the match, based on foul point assessments, after a good deal of elapsed time, with the outcome ultimately favoring not one, but two home teams is suspect in and of itself. The fact that the driver of the team that won, 16, shares the same last name as both the Regional Director (Novak) and another member of the Arkansas Regional Planning Committee seems to me in and of itself a huge conflict of interest. Additionally, a judge was a senior engineer from Baxter, sponsor of the winning team. Considering the outcome I think it is highly suspect and at the very least deserves investigation by FIRST. Had it been a clear victory this would not be a consideration. Anyone that thinks this was a clear victory is either delusional or dishonest. I didn't have a dog in the race and came into this completely impartial. I am just a fan of FIRST and a believer in fair competition. This was a sad, sad day for FIRST.....

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Quite the impartial observer...several anonymous accounts popping up.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I HAVE a dog in this race. Meredith (the RD) and her entire family are very good friends of mine. If that call was even remotely questionable you would see them arguing against it being made. They are some of the most honest and kind hearted folks I've ever met.

Did you know that Meredith ALSO was involved in 2 of the teams on the other alliance? And when it looked like the other alliance won the folks you are accusing of cheating were congratulating the other alliance?

I'm not going to discuss the validity of the calls. Everything I've heard from folks outside of 16 was that it was a blatant foul that decided the match. I'm just letting you know that the folks you are attacking aren't the type to cheat under any circumstances.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Speaking as a person with no dog in the show & using my real name... Maybe the long discussion was because the referees knew the implications of their decisions and wanted to get it right. You cannot ignore a foul because it changes the result of the game.

One change I would like to see is the announcer reporting the cause of the fouls after every match. A difficult thing to accomplish because the explanation would have to come from already busy referees.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I take it that you do not know what you are talking about. If you knew the Novak's you wouldn't make such a comment. They have been working hard over the last couple years to get FIRST in Arkansas. Look at the number of teams that have started in Arkansas in the last two years, heavily due to the Novak's.

Secondly based on your comments you also don't know what it takes to put on a regional. In Kansas City it take over 180 volunteers. If it is not for the teams stepping up to help make sure there is enough volunteers we would not have the competitions. When you have put on a regional or recruited as many teams as they have we will then talk.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I can't believe what I am reading.

I've been involved in FRC for five years, and FIRST for eight years total. I've seen a lot of good, and a lot of bad. Now, if you were to ask me, at this very moment, which team best exemplifies the spirit of FIRST and "Gracious Professionalism", I'll say Baxter Bomb Squad every time...

I'm appalled that you would accuse one of the sweetest, most professional acting, most generous, and perennially virtuous teams in the history of FRC of rigging an event. Team 16 is a Hall of Fame team, which means they've been awarded the highest honor in FRC. I can't even imagine for a second a scenario where 16 would even consider doing anything like what you're accusing them.

Not only are you attacking the team, you're attacking one family in particular. John and Meredith Novak have been a crucial part of FRC in the Midwest for as long as I've been around the program. There is no doubt in my mind that Team 16's honorable actions partially stem from their involvement with the team. If you ACTUALLY knew the family, or ACTUALLY knew what you were talking about, you'd most likely take all of these ridiculous accusations back.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Which explanation do you think is more likely to be true?

A complex situation observed by a number of volunteers running a brand new game (that we already know to be very difficult to referee) leads to a discussion to compare notes and determine what they thought was the most accurate call?

Or, a Regional-wide conspiracy (going all the way to the Regional Director and Regional Planning Committee, and, apparently, a large multi-national health care company) to fix a high school robotics competition?

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I am not attacking anyone. I simply provided information that I did not know beforehand. I notice you did not dispute that indeed it is all factual. People can take from it what they want and draw their own conclusions. I think transparency is of utmost importance in any kind of competition especially when the outcome is determined by the referees decision, not by game play.

I was there as a potential team sponsor. I am not relying on biased hearsay. There was not simply one foul that decided one match. The blue alliance won the first match and appeared to have one the second and third, but because of fouls called in the last two after the match had concluded it was determined that they lost. I heard many in the stands voicing their displeasure. One person even predicted the exact outcome after the second match. I was shocked and asked where to voice my concerns. They directed me to this site and told me to send a letter to FIRST.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

"As an impartial observer of the entire regional I am absolutely sickened by what transpired."

"seems to me in and of itself a huge conflict of interest."

" Anyone that thinks this was a clear victory is either delusional or dishonest"

"This was a sad, sad day for FIRST....."


These are ALL attacks.

Sorry for not disputing your tenuous grasping at straws slandering a family that has driven FIRST in the Midwest for as long as I can remember one of whom is a WFA winner and a team that doesn't NEED to win to go to Championship due to the fact that they are a Hall of Fame team.

The fact that several people have come out telling you outright that the Novak family are pillars of the FIRST community as well as genuinely upstanding individuals may tell you something.

If you don't believe me, fine, contact FIRST.

FIRST
200 Bedford St.
Manchester, NH 03101


Contact Don Bossi. That's about as far up as you can go.

But stop dragging a well respected member of our community through the mud publicly.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I agree with this to an extent robotlover77. Our team, 3991, also from Louisiana was heavily involved in watching the finals at Arkansas. We cheered excessively for our good friends from 2992 until the last whistle blew. After the scores came up in match #2, we were quite surprised and it was unclear as to what exactly happened. As finals match #3 concluded we were once again befuddled as to how foul points could change the effect of a game and a regional chapionship that much. Even though the red alliance had substantial support from the crowd, it was heartbreaking to see that happen to our dog in the race. After matches were over, we congratulated 2992 and told them how proud we are that they gave it their best. My team did nominate them for the Gracious Professionalism Award, and knowing that they received it was music to our ears.
But in supporting them, in no way am I mad that the alliance from Arkansas won the regional. Upon talking with members and mentors from Team 16, it was clear that they exhibit qualities of FIRST that very few teams do. Mr. Brandon and Courtney deserved the Woodie Flowers and Dean's List Awards, respectively. I am so glad I got to meet each of them. And for Mrs. Novak, we cannot thank you enough for the amount of work you and your team of volunteers put into this event. As a group, we enjoyed and were honored at the fact that we got to be apart of what they have been working at for 20+ years. I am happy for them, and I cannot wait too see their partners, team 3937 at the Bayou Regional.


-Matthew Cope
Team 3991 Drive Team

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

So someone predicted foul play, then observed an outcome that could have had any number of (simpler, much more common) causes, therefore it must be foul play? Presumably this person (who feels qualified to call "conspiracy" when he/she sees it) also knows that the real-time score displayed during the match is unofficial?

Then they directed you to go drag a team's reputation through the mud on a public forum?

Sounds like there was indeed some despicable behavior at the Arkansas Regional. If you do indeed send a letter to FIRST, I hope you include the identity of this/these person(s) in its contents.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Fouls deciding matches was not unique to the Arkansas regional, or even this game, although this game is notorious for it.

See pretty much every match at every week 1 or 2 event.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Had you carefully observed the last ten seconds of the final match, you would likely not be making such a foolish accusation. It's true that there was a technical foul assessed that didn't appear in the score until after the match was over. That's because the rule violation itself (possessing an opponent's ball) was committed so near the end buzzer that there was literally no time for it to be entered earlier.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Thank you for pointing that out. I do not agree with the slander and attacks at the Novak family. I was wrong to say I agree 100% with the entire post. I agree 100% with the observations that these matches will go down as controversial.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

My intent is not to drag anyone through the mud. I simply posted what I witnessed and facts that I read from an official program. If I were a team contemplating entering a regional next year I would appreciate all the information I could gather to make an educated decision regarding where I spent my time and dollars.

In comparison to other competitive events if Mother Theresa had a team competing in the Super Bowl and was put in charge of hiring the officiating crew and her team won on a controversial call I believe there would be cause to question the outcome. That would not be saying that Mother Theresa or her family were bad people just that there was potential for bias which could have determined the outcome.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Well, here then, I posted the mailing address of FIRST and gave you the name of someone who can actually look into it. CD is unofficial in all capacities. Take it up with folks who can look into things.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Huh, didn't realize your thought process could get more outlandish, but I guess I was wrong.

Based on your logic, almost every single event in FIRST is rigged. BMR is managed by Purdue FIRST alumni, and there are Purdue teams that compete. MSC is managed by more than a few elite team mentors and their teams compete there. At the event that I was at this weekend, the Rookie All Star team also was on the winning alliance and was top seeded rookie and their sponsor university was the host.

What you are describing, elite teams who manage events, is not corruption but teams being role models for other teams. See, managing an event is difficult. Managing a team is difficult. Combine those two things together and you have one heck of a stressful weekend.

I suggest you volunteer for an event, so you learn how exhausting it is, and how amazing event and volunteer coordinators are.

The facts are this:
There is a proper protocol to go through if a team questions the outcome of a match, that protocol does NOT include slander on CD.
Refs huddle up after matches, especially during the finals, to make sure they get the calls correct.
The Novak's are one of the absolute nicest families in FIRST.
You are wrong.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

This is absolutely appalling. A family as well respected as the Novak's and a team as well respected as 16 would NEVER do anything you are suggesting. Remember, that 2 years ago, 16 experienced first hand what somebody actually fixing an event feels like, and I guarantee that they would NEVER allow anything like that to happen, because they have seen how it affects everybody involved.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I'm not going to comment on any conspiracy theories.
But can anyone tell me what rule was violated at the end of that match? 4090 only contacted the red ball once and without using an active mechanism, which has been specifically defined as not being POSSESSION. The only thing I could find is G11,
BALLS may not be intentionally or repeatedly ejected from gameplay
but that's a Foul, not a TF. Maybe hitting the opponent's ball into your own goal isn't part of the "normal" way to play this game, but that doesn't mean that it's a foul.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

As vehemently as I disagree with your accusations and interpretation of events, it seems that you've been the victim of a lack of context and some unfortunate behavior on the part of one of the Arkansas regional competitors, or at the least misinterpreted what was told to you.

I can see how, as a new potential sponsor, it would be confusing and suspicious how the finals shook out at Arkansas-- but fortunately there's a lot more context than what you are putting on the table. As has been mentioned, 16 is a Hall of Fame team, meaning they have won the single most prestigious award in FIRST-- the Championship Chairman's Award. Not only has FIRST held up this team as an example to all of us, but they have through the nearly 20 years of their existence been quite simply a shining example of gracious professionalism and what it means to be a FIRST team. Not only that, but, as already mentioned, they have very little to gain from any of the activities you accuse them of.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, it seems that you are new to FIRST and believe you've had a very questionable experience. I urge you to listen and try to parse what everyone is trying to say-- even if they're a bit rough about it. Please understand you are accusing one of our most admired teams and most beloved families of doing nothing less than violating everything that they and we as a community stand for. Outstanding claims require outstanding proof, and so far you've brought very little data and a lot of speculation and misinterpretation to the conversation.

I hope you have the opportunity to experience FIRST at its fullest if you are indeed a new-comer. If you aren't, I genuinely hope that you reflect on you words and realize how ridiculous the accusations you are putting forth are.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

There is just no way that the Novaks would ever do this, their overflowing gracious professionalism is so evident, during quarter finals our alliance was going against theirs and we needed an Anderson connector and they brought one over on the spot. The fouls can not be ignored just because it changes the match, the fouls weren't forced by anyone. All members played an extremely good match, and the reffs didn't have a dog in the race, they are there to officiate and they do that to the best of their abilities. As much as they want to see everyone win, they are un-bias, and are there by their own will and we are so thankful for them. It is OK to question things, but in the proper fashion, resorting to dragging a family's name through the mud is not an example of Gracious professionalism, that is not in the goal of First.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Admittedly I am new to FIRST. I was asked to watch a regional competition as a potential sponsor. It just so happened that this is the match that worked out logistically. I have however witnessed countless other competitive events in a host of fields on all levels. There is potential for bias in all competitive events and FIRST in no exception; to think otherwise is extremely naive.

The level of support you have for certain teams is impressive, however, nobody should be above review. Mistakes can be made regardless.

So are you saying that past FIRST events have been "fixed" ? Was it called into question and rectified? I would appreciate any honest feedback as I am trying to make a decision regarding team sponsorship and I in no way want to be affiliated with an organization that condones such behavior and dishonesty. The team appealing for my sponsorship painted a much different picture of FIRST.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I am trying to figure out how to get my name out of the conspiracy theory quote just so some of the well deserved reputation hits to that account don't get associated with me or my team.

I have been talking to the Novak's and they couldn't be more pleasant people and they are probably more devastated at the perceptions than I am. Our team is indeed writing a letter to FIRST, but it is a plea for reasonable penalties and to learn their lesson going forward about the game Aerial Assist. Our letter will be praiseful of the Arkansas Regional staff and volunteers because they were put in an impossible position.

I can only speak for myself, but as a mentor with a dog in the hunt, we had a wonderful time at a beautiful venue, and lost our regional finals due to penalties that were commited by our alliance. That the rules are silly and too punishing I am more than willing to discuss, but collusion or conspiracy I will not entertain.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Hopefully this clears up a little about that. Be sure to read the report though:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...einsteinreport

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

2 years ago at championships, during the finals, someone actually interfered with the field, and was able to shut down any robot at will. He admitted to doing it during one match. He was asked to never come back to a FIRST event ever again. Some people around here still have very harsh feelings on this, so this is about as much as this should be discussed. I just wanted to bring it up as a reason they would NEVER interfere, because they were on the other side.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

As Nick mentioned, you're unfortunately missing context. The final rounds of the world championship in 2012 were sabotaged by (a now banned individual) interfering with robot communications.

FIRST is all based around "gracious professionalism" and a lot of the honor system. It is a touchy subject for a lot of people (for better or worse) whenever accusing a team or person of wrongdoings, even when they aren't Hall of Fame teams, storied volunteers, or "elite teams". I hope you have the opportunity to learn a little more of what we're about.

Next time, maybe ask around a little more before throwing accusations out, though :)

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I watched the video, admittedly it was a bad view, from my standpoint G11 was likely violated. In the same case, you could also make a strong case that the robot was also herding or trapping the opponents ball which is a definite TF per G12. It happened fast and would be quite a tough judgement call to make.

First of all, this is a high school robotics competition.

Second of all, team 16 has enough blue banners.

Third of all, team 16 has won the championship before and they are a hall of fame team.

... I dont think they care much if they dont win one regional.

Everyone knows who Baxter Bomb Squad is and if you don't, you simply dont know their characteristics and their involvement in our community.

... Oh and if you did, you would never publicly attack the Novaks.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I don't think a G11 call would be too out there, although I don't think that they were actually attempting to score the red ball. But I don't think you can justify G12 at all. Herding specifically refers to contacting the ball multiple times, which did not happen, and trapping is defined as pressing the ball against the field or another robot, which clearly was not done.

I've been seeing a lot of misconceptions about possession lately, that's the main reason I'm posting really...

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

When we won the world championship in 2012, 1 member from a different team used a weakness in the WiFi communications to wreak havoc on other robots at the highest level. Two of the robots on our alliance had changed our radios, unwittingly making us immune to the attack. These events led some to question the legitimacy of the win. It was thoroughly investigated by FIRST, the offending party banned from any future FIRST activities, and we've all moved on.

I will not respond to any of the other accusations you've made here. They are slanderous and disrespectful. As your arguments have been thoroughly debunked, I would suggest that you and everybody else simply drop this thread.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Coming from a sporting context, or the context of most other events, I understand why you might leap to the "realistic" conclusion of foul play, but the thing is, FIRST is fundamentally different from nearly any other competition on the planet, because the goal isn't building the robot, it's building the students, inspiring the community, changing the culture of not only our nation, but the world. A football game is inherently petty-- there is no higher cause, but if you took a bit more time to talk to students not just about their team, but ask them about the others, you might get a better understanding of just how far teams will go to help their competitors compete to their fullest. It isn't uncommon in eliminations for an alliance to take a time out in order to give their opponents time to fix their robot. Team 16 and the Novaks are a shining example of this-- there wasn't a single team at that regional who wasn't impacted positively by them. To accuse them of intentionally causing a fracture in the community they helped to build and nurture at a regional that they are so invested in is like accusing parents of poisoning their children.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But we also need evidence of those mistakes, not broad accusations based on theory and hearsay.

Not fixed-- a couple of years ago, a mentor interfered with the wireless during the final matches of Championships. The mentor was banned from FIRST and measures were taken to improve wireless security at events.


Investing in a FIRST team is one of the best uses for your money out there, hands down. I don't know what team you were with, but I can almost without qualification say that your investment will help change at least one student's life, and quite possibly many more.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I do realize this is a high school robotics competition, however I have been asked to donate a substantial amount of money to a team. In return they would display my organization's logo as a representative of my organization. I do not take this lightly. I am now getting a much different picture of what this is all about, both from the weekend's competition and more so from this website.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I had the honor of going up to New York last Thanksgiving to kick off the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade with teams 16, 25, 180, and 1477. I can tell you firsthand that 16 isn't the type of team to be dishonest in any way - ever.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Say robot 1 on the red alliance hasn't touched the ball, a partner shoots the ball over the truss and it ends up sitting in front of the red goal. Robot 1 then proceeds to pop the ball into the goal. Would you give robot 1 credit for possession? Absolutely...even on only one touch.

What if it was a blue robot and it went into the goal seemingly with purpose? It is also directing a ball into a certain direction with purpose. Also possession. In open field, I would agree...it would take multiple hits in the same direction. Against a corner, it would depend more on the direction the robot was moving and intent. That is my opinion.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Sure. The call was on a possession, more specifically herding. After the match ended, all of the referees met, and discussed what happened. Some of them saw what happened, others only got a glimpse. After the referees who saw what happened gave their description of the events, everyone unanimously agreed that the correct call was herding. This of course is a technical. It was called on the robot who pushed the ball into the low goal.

Source: I was one of the refs. Any other questions, feel free to PM me.

Please take a look at this link directly from FIRST. Much happened during the final matches in the world championship. FIRST made sure that everything was done to sort out what was wrong on their end, the competing teams' end, and the interfering end. It just so happened that 16 was one of the competing teams in the finals (as was my old team). They were NOT involved in any of the foul play two years ago, just like they were not involved in any foul play at this regional (simply because there was none).

Source: Drive team and 2012 team captain for 180 SPAM. Once again, any questions please PM me.

I am sure that the picture they painted you of FIRST was accurate. I have been inspired by FIRST, I am currently a ME major at the University of Florida becuase of FIRST, and I can not recommend enough sponsoring a team. Your contributions may help inspire a student, just like FIRST has inspired many of us. If you truly want to know the community that is involved with FIRST, please read back to all of the responses that your posts has garnered. All affiliates of this program believe in FIRST's ideal of Gracious Professionalism, and not a single person would condone any amount of the behavior or dishonesty that your posts have been eluding to.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

And this is indeed a position I would agree with, except that the inverse is not true. Many times a single hit with gusto were not considered possession enough to count as an assist for scoring. It is entirely too subjective, and it will be impossible to be consistent across all the venues with the current set of rules, I feel.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I can agree with this. I noticed it this weekend, having reffed at Mt. Olive and then my team be competing at Groton. At first, I was a little annoyed at how they seemed to not be calling posession sometimes(and not just due to refs looking a different direction) and how it differed than how we called it at MO, but by Saturday afternoon, I had a pretty strong grasp of how they determined themselves to be calling posession. I have no problem with this because they were consistently calling it a certain way throughout the individual event. This is the most realistic situation I can see.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

No, I wouldn't.

Can you tell me what part of this rule defines that as possession?

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I'd have to argue that any ball that is hit once and rolls into a goal is without a doubt a possession of the contacting robot, regardless of where it rolls. I mean, where else is the ball going to go? If the robot was pushed into it, and it rolled into the goal...then you'd have a point. If its a willing motion...well, then that is where it gets hairy. Any purposeful motion of a ball against a wall or goal going outside of the field would certainly have strategic merit in keeping the ball away from the other team. The spirit and intent of the possession of an opponents ball rule is to prevent just that.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

So you are telling me that a robot can purposefully score a ball and never possess it?

To answer your second question, I would call it herding.

To score in the goal, it takes one push to get the ball up the bump on the front of the goal, and one to push it down the ramp. Against the wall, one bump to push the ball upwards, and one to knock it out.

Edit: Trap works too...from the definition of possess in the glossary:

"trap (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them) a BALL."

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

For the record, the referees who initially called the specific fouls in finals 2 and 3 were not associated with teams 16 or 3937. They didn't talk or consult with anyone outside the referee crew until the score was entered.

Yes, fouls all over the place; I'll do a more thorough analysis later, but from a brief glance at my pages of scorekeeper notes, there were fouls in more than half the matches. The fouls called in the finals were unfortunate but hardly unusual.

Both alliances were under incredible stress. For the red alliance, the result was 16 and 3937 getting hasty and missing lots of shots. For blue, it resulted in committing penalties they might have otherwise been careful to avoid (particularly in match 2).

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Thanks to all who have responded to my prior posts. I have certainly been given a more clear picture of what FIRST really is.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

If you're going to act like this and lay out ridiculous accusations, no one wants your money.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Funny, I have been approached by 3 "teams" this year. They are all quite eager to take my money. Two of them virtually begged.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

Alright, that's enough.

Someone on the mod team should lock this thread, as there's nothing else that can be said that will be productive.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I was the Ref, scoring blue, in the corner in which the violation occurred.

//snip//

I have struggled with this myself. I hate the fact that the finals match, which bears great significance, was decided on fouls. But I don't question for a second the integrity of the other Refs.

//snip//

All that said, I do believe that the penalties are far too harsh. Not having experience before this, though, I cannot compare to other years.

And finally, if you are considering refereeing for a FIRST competition, later this year or another year entirely, make sure you think twice. It is a lot of responsibility and many people will count on you. And then go do it; the excitement is unrivaled and it is extremely rewarding to be able to volunteer for such an effective organization.

Re: 2014 Arkansas Regional
 

I don't post much but I would like to set the record straight. Someone back in the thread finally alluded to the real purpose of the FIRST experience in inspiring students to work hard at accomplishing what they set out to do. I try to get our team to understand that all we can do is try to look like we could win but winning includes luck and circumstance beyond our control. Last year, two penalty calls that were clearly questionable on video eliminated us from the Championship. We pleaded our case and walked away. Same thing happened in 2011. The most competitive person on our team is the drive coach. When I met him on the way back to the pits his first words were "I didn't want to win like that." We know that the scores wouldn't have been close if our Autonomous systems were working well and that will be our focus.
After 19 years, the winning and losing takes care of itself. My goal is to never be the team that someone wonders how we got there.
The choices are to play down to the competition or try to help the competition get better. We think the latter is the right choice and actively try to do that.
There is a thread on this forum every year of "best teams that have never won." The community is sophisticated enough to know who is doing the things that inspire youth to the next level.
Sure, the rules and amatur refs make the outcome less than perfect but there is so much more to the program that just can't be compared to sports.
We have struggled to get Arkansas companies to recognize that this is where they should be looking for their workforce. We had barely enough funding for this year and right now we have virtually no funding to do it again. If your goal is to make sure it goes away I'm sorry. Many of our teams can't raise the funds to travel out of state and stay in hotels so they can't survive without a local event.
Maybe your money would best be spent hiring professional referees for all events so no collusion could be possible. I hope you come to the conclusion that the competition is not the main product of FIRST and that the students that come through the program are able to handle the real world better than we can.

Everyone take a breath, lets not let one person who we don't know tarnish the reputation of people who we do. Thanks to everyone who responded maturely and let your GP shine. Don't forget to keep being excellent to each other.



*Thread closed*