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Patrick Flynn 08-10-2013 20:43

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer26 (Post 1295388)
I think you're forgetting that I've oversized the areas by a fair margin. An FRC field is 27x54ft, and the area I allocated for each field was 40x70. Additionally, an NFL football field is 57,600 square feet. The Georgia Dome advertises 106,000 ish square feet of floor space.

Yes, it would be tight. I think its possible.

I took last years map replicated the field size and tried to post 5 in. Simple put they don't fit. Actually 4 barely do.

maths222 08-10-2013 21:27

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Also, remember that FTC has 4 fields, and in their current configuration, that requires a space approximately as large as 1 FRC division currently occupies. Most of that space could not be reduced, as the driver areas are just far enough apart for ref teams and robot carts to comfortable fit between them. If FTC returned to the square, not diamond, layout, the width would be about the same, although the depth requirements of FTC might decrease.

Alex2614 09-10-2013 00:45

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
I have three wild ideas that may be impossible.

First of all, i don't think we need 8 divisions. I can definitely see moving to 6 divisions, though. That seems most attractive to me.

1) FLL moves to the center of the floor with grandstands erected around that space. That gives FLL a more intimate playing environment and allows for more space. You could then take Patrick's picture and alter it a bit so that a couple of the filds are on the "short side" of the stadium. I don't like the option of moving FLL or FTC entirely into the convention center, so that seems pretty attractive.

2) Place an FTC field (and even an FLL table) for every FRC field. This eliminates the need for separate areas, and they just round-robin the playing. Run an FRC match, then FTC, then FLL, then repeat. (or combine this option with option 1 and just do FTC/FRC together, and FLL in their own separate area, either in the center of the dome floor or in a similar configuration to what we have now)

3) Move the championship to a location that has a basketball arena. I saw a proposal on CD (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...=105379&page=1) to move the championship to the LA convention center and the Staples Center. FRC fields in the convention center. I know this seems unattractive, but it could work with the right setup (https://www.google.com/search?q=conv...s%3B718%3B312). I saw somewhere a picture of convention center grandstands with a "concourse" walkway going around the middle (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...26_160835.jpg). Given a space like LA that has a much larger convention center than St. Louis (more of the size of the Georgia World Congress Center, if I'm not mistaken, but in one building). FTC and FLL play in the basketball arena. Then Einstein moves in on Saturday, basically ensuring that everybody has a a good seat 360 degrees all the way around the field. We only use one side of the dome for closing ceremonies anyway, I imagine the seating capacity is similar to the # of people we have at championships.

It seems like FIRST was considering option 3 with the site selection for 2015-17. Many of the facilities that won a bid did not have a football dome (Detroit, Louisville off the top of my head; others?).

Again, this may not work at all, but it's a thought. I always prefer to start with the craziest, most impossible ideas, and slim them down from there.

bduddy 09-10-2013 01:26

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Flynn (Post 1295390)
I took last years map replicated the field size and tried to post 5 in. Simple put they don't fit. Actually 4 barely do.

What about placing two of the fields on the short sides of the floor?

Chris Hibner 09-10-2013 08:39

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex2614 (Post 1295432)
Many of the facilities that won a bid did not have a football dome (Detroit, Louisville off the top of my head; others?).

Did you word the part about Detroit not having "a football dome" that way because Detroit has two football domes? (As in: Detroit doesn't have a football dome, it has two!) Just wondering ^o)

maths222 09-10-2013 09:51

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Place an FTC field (and even an FLL table) for every FRC field. This eliminates the need for separate areas, and they just round-robin the playing. Run an FRC match, then FTC, then FLL, then repeat. (or combine this option with option 1 and just do FTC/FRC together, and FLL in their own separate area, either in the center of the dome floor or in a similar configuration to what we have now)
From an FTC perspective, this does not make sense. Sticking more people in an already crowded area will only make seating worse. FTC, with its smaller field, is much better up close. I know FRC is not that great from far away, but it is much better than FTC (the screens are not nearly good enough to be far away. Also, FTC has 2 divisions, with two fields each. Having division fields separated by a whole FRC field will only make people need to walk back and forth a lot, and be stuck sitting behind FRC teams who can afford to stay put (not trying to complain, just pointing out that it does not really make sense. Also, FTC currently has 1 scoring table per division, and one set of interconnected field electronics. Dividing it around an FRC field would make that very difficult. Also, this would save very little space other than the gap between FTC and Curie (I think), as the fields would not get any smaller, and they are pretty compact as they are.

Alex2614 09-10-2013 10:30

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maths222 (Post 1295493)
From an FTC perspective, this does not make sense. Sticking more people in an already crowded area will only make seating worse. FTC, with its smaller field, is much better up close. I know FRC is not that great from far away, but it is much better than FTC (the screens are not nearly good enough to be far away. Also, FTC has 2 divisions, with two fields each. Having division fields separated by a whole FRC field will only make people need to walk back and forth a lot, and be stuck sitting behind FRC teams who can afford to stay put (not trying to complain, just pointing out that it does not really make sense. Also, FTC currently has 1 scoring table per division, and one set of interconnected field electronics. Dividing it around an FRC field would make that very difficult. Also, this would save very little space other than the gap between FTC and Curie (I think), as the fields would not get any smaller, and they are pretty compact as they are.

I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying. If we had more FRC divisions, we could team up an FTC division with an FRC division. So two FTC fields (one division) for an FRC division. The FTC fields would be just as far as they are now. And the FTC teams could stay put because they only play on that field. but instead of putting all FTC fields together, you spread out the divisions among FRC divisions. so FTC would be set up just like FRC, with their divisions separated. This also promotes interaction between the two programs.

Alex2614 09-10-2013 10:33

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner (Post 1295475)
Did you word the part about Detroit not having "a football dome" that way because Detroit has two football domes? (As in: Detroit doesn't have a football dome, it has two!) Just wondering ^o)

From what I have seen, they are not attached to a convention center though. Unless I am missing something.

BrendanB 09-10-2013 10:35

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex2614 (Post 1295510)
I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying. If we had more FRC divisions, we could team up an FTC division with an FRC division. So two FTC fields (one division) for an FRC division. The FTC fields would be just as far as they are now. And the FTC teams could stay put because they only play on that field. but instead of putting all FTC fields together, you spread out the divisions among FRC divisions. so FTC would be set up just like FRC, with their divisions separated. This also promotes interaction between the two programs.

But now similar to FRC you are going to need to have FRC's equivalent of Einstein for FTC teams to gather and play their finals. That ends up using more space than the current layout with FTC in one area with their own space in the stands.

maths222 09-10-2013 10:59

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
If I understand correctly, all this would do is split up the existing FTC divisions into two separate areas. Am I correct? Also, how does having more FRC divisions affect this then, other than what matches are playing when? Regarding the Einstein concern, one of the sets of FTC fields could be used for divisional playoffs, just as the Franklin half of FTC is currently used for finals.

Nemo 09-10-2013 12:05

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1295344)
What [US] sport(s) actually follow that format all the way through a national tournament, let alone a world championship event? For the most part, there aren't "official" high school sports championships beyond the state level, and only rarely are there actual competitions/tournaments to decide them. For instance, the High School football national champion is typically decided by a poll.

While the appeal of that format is obvious, there are significant challenges that it poises as well. The financial costs and time comittments to teams, volunteers, and FIRST/planning comittees increase with each level of competition added. For many teams, it's simply not feasible to compete four or five times in a single season.

The appeal of that structure is obvious, and the logic behind it is easy to follow. But there should also be a parallel discussion. Rather than adding layers of competition, when is it time to start removing them? At what point is a "champioship event" simply not feasible? At what point is it no longer the best return on investment for the time and cost sunk into it by the participants, sponsors, and volunteers? Would FRC benefit from more of a "world festival" event similar to FLL?

I agree. Our team would be really hard pressed to attend a fourth event. Three is already tough.

Super regionals could be the top level. It would remove the need for a gigantic championship event, and most teams wouldn't have to travel a ridiculous distance to get to them. Certainly I'd miss the chance to compete with teams in other regions, BUT if everybody is eventually in a cross-compatible regional system, teams can sign up for competitions in other regions if desired.

I pointed out in another thread that a configuration topping out with super regionals still leaves the door open for a really small Einstein type event that only invites super regional winners. No Georgia Dome + World Congress Center required for that event. And if that wasn't in the cards, there's still IRI.

Nate Laverdure 09-10-2013 13:05

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo (Post 1295523)
Super regionals could be the top level. It would remove the need for a gigantic championship event, and most teams wouldn't have to travel a ridiculous distance to get to them. Certainly I'd miss the chance to compete with teams in other regions, BUT if everybody is eventually in a cross-compatible regional system, teams can sign up for competitions in other regions if desired.

This is a really cool idea. One additional challenge is that CMP is currently used for many administrative functions: announcing big changes, presenting top-tier awards, giving important speeches, etc. These things would either have to be split or repeated amongst each of the super-regionals, or they'd have to find another venue. Also, I imagine it would be tougher to invite a super-VIP to an event that's not necessarily the year's premier event.

Steven Donow 09-10-2013 13:15

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure (Post 1295532)
This is a really cool idea. One additional challenge is that CMP is currently used for many administrative functions: announcing big changes, presenting top-tier awards, giving important speeches, etc. These things would either have to be split or repeated amongst each of the super-regionals, or they'd have to find another venue. Also, I imagine it would be tougher to invite a super-VIP to an event that's not necessarily the year's premier event.

Doesn't Kickoff serve the same purpose? My assumptions/feelings/hopes would be that when we eventually move to the SuperRegional structure(ie. what was in that powerpoint; I personally feel like this won't be for at least 10-15 years), we'll eventually have a yearly "FIRST Conference/Convention/World Festival". Think, everything about the Championship, but without the competition. There could be so many more panels/roundtables, and the executive meetings that FIRST has at Championships could occur then.


Of course, that's just my little "fanfiction" of the future of FIRST, but I think the specific administrative things you mentioned are irrelevant towards the eventual addition of SuperRegionals/removal of Championship(which wasn't in the powerpoint laying out the potential SuperRegional structure)

Chris is me 09-10-2013 13:46

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1295514)
But now similar to FRC you are going to need to have FRC's equivalent of Einstein for FTC teams to gather and play their finals. That ends up using more space than the current layout with FTC in one area with their own space in the stands.

This could be done by placing the FTC finals on Einstein during Saturday morning. This ends before noon, so at FRC alliance selection time, the FTC fields can be removed. Perhaps even place them on risers, VRC style. Maybe these risers could roll away to the side hallways of the Dome to clear Einstein more quickly.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the "FTC divisions with FRC divisions" concept, but it does seem like a cool way to combine the programs. The big problem becomes seating. FRC is already really crowded. While FTC doesn't take up as much space, any less space in some FRC fields means some people can't get seats at all.

While I hate to suggest it, really... FTC's smaller field size, desire for close-up seating, and smaller crowd size make it a natural fit for pit fields. To make Dome prominence possible, perhaps 1-2 divisions could still be in the Dome. Or maybe more of the eliminations are shifted to Saturday and FTC runs on Einstein. Just spitballin' here.

Alex2614 09-10-2013 14:57

Re: Championship Location Announced
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by maths222 (Post 1295516)
If I understand correctly, all this would do is split up the existing FTC divisions into two separate areas. Am I correct? Also, how does having more FRC divisions affect this then, other than what matches are playing when? Regarding the Einstein concern, one of the sets of FTC fields could be used for divisional playoffs, just as the Franklin half of FTC is currently used for finals.

No, you are not correct. As I have said before, I would place an ENTIRE FTC division with an FRC field (multiple FTC fields). Also, I know that the idea of increasing the number of FTC teams at worlds has been addressed. So why not move to 4 FTC divisions? Or keep the same number of FTC teams, but make 4 divisions of 50 (rather than 2 of 100). Again, just a thought.

Take a look at the attached PDF. Very rough, but you get the idea. I honestly think that all three of these options could work (in particular both option 1s, and option 3). In all three examples, I have 6 FRC divisions and 4 FTC divisions. This could work with any number of things, though. Including 2 FTC divisions as we have now. In fact, if we keep it at 2 FTC divisions, we could split FLL up among the FRC fields as well (or the remaining ones without an FTC partner). THEY WOULD HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT FLL TEAMS DO NOT CROSS THE STADIUM though. I'm not saying have FLL teams playing all over the stadium, but rather have some play on one side and some play on another (as with FRC now and FTC in my document).

I do realize that this is not perfect. I realize that there are still some minute issues that would need to be addressed, that I have not yet come up with a solution. One example is the FTC finals. I like this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1295534)
This could be done by placing the FTC finals on Einstein during Saturday morning. This ends before noon, so at FRC alliance selection time, the FTC fields can be removed. Perhaps even place them on risers, VRC style. Maybe these risers could roll away to the side hallways of the Dome to clear Einstein more quickly.

Another issue that has been brought up is seating. Could we open up the upper deck? Just a thought, really. But you also have to think that on the sides of the FRC fields now is empty space, and empty seats. the FTC fields would go beside the FRC fields where there is currently empty space.
Again, I know that there are lots of details that still would need to be addressed. But I think with some creativity and planning, SOMETHING LIKE this could work. I"m not saying I have all the answers. Just throwing out something that could be worked with and morphed into something awesome.


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