Championship Location Announced
 

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...is-Site-Annual

It is now official, St. Louis has been announced as the choice for Worlds through 2017.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I was hoping for Indianapolis, or a return to Atlanta...but St. Louis will do.

The dates for Champs 2015-2017 are: April 22-25 (2015); April 27-30 (2016); and April 26-29 (2017).

EDIT: This also stood out to me in the article:
When FIRST competitors return to St. Louis, they will see even more new developments in the area, including an invigorated Arch grounds, Ballpark Village, and a redeveloped Union Station. Those new developments, of course, are augmented by many youth-friendly venues such as City Museum, City Garden, Saint Louis Zoo, the Saint Louis Science Center, the Saint Louis Art Museum, and the Missouri History Museum. “Our mix of attractions and venues is really quite impressive and attractive, particularly to young people,” said Ratcliffe. “We can’t wait to show another generation of FIRST what St. Louis has to offer.”

Please...not back to the Science Center...please...

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Very good news for St. Louis area teams!!!

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This move sets a definitive bar for what the powers-that-be want champs to be over the next 4 years.

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Disappointed...but we will get over it;)

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Great, I don't have to travel so far to see a lot of great teams.

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Pretty disappointed in this decision I guess, even though I have no other venue to compare it to. It might just be I want something new and different, but to me STL has gotten kind of bland. But we will see whats down the pipe and what kind of changes they can make to improve CMP

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I'm excited that it is in the same place because it is so close to home. I did want it to move to indy though. (Food Trucks!) I am interested in the new developments of the area for championships though. Sorry west coast teams.

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This means that FIRST CMP and VEX Worlds will coincide in 2014 and 2015.

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I would have enjoyed seeing a new city. The first year I went to Worlds was 2011, so I never have seen anything aside from St. Louis. Oh well. Don't get me wrong, I think St. Louis is a wonderful city for it. I just like to see new places.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Ugh, two years of potentially telling a group of students they have to pick one and can't go to both. Given the fact that May is effectively off limits I am not that surprised that this schedule happened.

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Seems to me that's

a) going to be a problem for some teams and people which consistently make appearances in both places (like 1114 [who've never missed an FRC CMP since they were a rookie way back in 2003, and won't ever now that they're a HOF team, and who frequently send at least one team to VEX worlds] and Karthik [as part of VEX's GDC and a lead mentor for 1114 in FRC])

b) Yet another snipe at VEX/IFI by FIRST HQ, which frankly, are becoming quite tired. The stated goals of both programs are to better STEM education. Forcing people to choose between them is the WORST thing they can do. Stop wrestling over the existing Robotics program pie, and GROW the pie. First the switch away from IFI controllers in FRC, then the axing of FVC in favour of FTC, then minibots which ONLY allow Tetrix parts, VEX parts being specifically banned, and now this. Just stop. Seriously. Are these the messages we want to teach the kids?

Note: I have edited this post. After some more consideration, I don't necessarily believe this to be as malicious as I initially thought.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I am sure they are not making them be the same weekend on purpose. I remember reading last year that the weekends they were placed on could not be changed. They could not go later because they would interfere with AP testing, and could not go earlier because of venue issues. So I'm sure if there was something they could do to put them on different weekends they would do everything they could.

Also I am sure the switch to NI from IFI was not a snipe at IFI, it was just who they wanted to go with. Moving to FTC was the same thing, and Minibots was trying to promote their own program, not trying to undermine another programs.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Agreed. Even if these things aren't intentional snipes, FIRST needs to recognize that they're being interpreted that way.

There's 52 weeks in the year. Plenty of room.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Call me cynical. You've only been around a short time. I've been around long enough to have seen enough little things to make me feel this way. I expect better from the organization I've devoted 10+ years of my life to.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

While I really wished the championships could be in Indy I guess the bright side is that Indiana should be moving to districts sooner since we don't have to worry about hosting anymore. :)

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52 weeks for CMP ??

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@Ether: Obviously not, but the point remains that VEX Worlds and FIRST Championship need not be on the same weekend.

Both programs ARE growing at a significant rate, and that's going to mean increasingly more collisions of their event dates. I don't believe for a second though, that it means their World Championship Events must share a weekend, especially when many of the people who are the most dedicated to either program, contribute to both.

Its no particular secret that MANY VRC teams are associated with FRC teams.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I found the thread from last year where both people from VEX and people close to FIRST replied and gave their reasoning on the timing

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=116489

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Please, share with us your time travel knowledge. It would be especially useful during build season. :D


On a serious note, I'm not sure what weekends it could be realistically moved to without changing the rest of the competition schedule. MSC is a week 7 event (and I assume other District Championships are as well...?) putting it just two weeks before Championship. That alone is a time crunch. Putting it later seems to have been effectively dismissed due to AP testing and the like. Putting it earlier seems to me a bit too short notice for some teams to find they are qualified.

Just my thoughts. If you are more knowledgable than I, please enlighten me.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

This isn't meant to sound critical of VEX and is meant to be a legitimate question for discussion, but is there any reason, aside from venue contracts(and I guess focusing on the competition structure) that VEX Worlds can't be a week earlier?

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

The stated reason is avoiding Easter.

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Why not simply post a Frank Answers Friday question about this particular topic?

He's probably already reading this thread anyway. Give him a chance to put forth an "official" explanation from a seemingly-trusted individual.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I'm generally a pretty vocal critic of FIRST, particularly re: the whole VEX/IFI thing.

In this case it's total BS to insinuate that FIRST is taking a petty stance and trying to screw over VEX and your post is full of false outrage. Seriously, diagram out how you expect FIRST to not have championships on the same weekend as VEX champs.

7 weeks of regional events, one week between bag and tag day and week 1. 1 week between week 7 and Easter. 1 week between Easter and champs. Where is the time that you envision FRC Champs being held?

It doesn't exist. You have the last 7 days of April and that's it. Any earlier and build has to be less than 6 weeks. Any later and you're in AP testing. Both of those are untenable solutions.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Your comments are way, WAY out of line. You should consider that you don't really know ANY of the facts involved in this situation, and maybe need to calm down.

In 2013 IFI was a Crown Supplier to FIRST, and we enjoy a fantastic working relationship with the folks in Manchester.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Interference between FIRST CMP and VEX Worlds is almost as crappy as any of the other options, and becoming crappier as more students become involved in both programs.

Backseat-driving the 2014 schedule, I come up with this:

• -2 weeks (Apr 9-12) Interferes with existing Week 7 events. Resolving this interference would require significant (a) investment in fields and (b) volunteer growth to compress the Regional and District event schedules to 6 weeks. Also requires eliminating the Feb 20-22 slack week so that Week 1 events would immediately follow after Bag & Tag day.
• -1 weeks (Apr 16-19) Interferes with Easter holiday (Apr 20).
• +0 weeks (Apr 23-26) Existing. Interferes with VEX Worlds.
• +1 weeks (Apr 30-May 3) Interferes with SAT testing (May 3-4) and in-class preparation for AP testing (begins Monday May 5)
• +4 weeks (May 21-24) Interferes with final exams, proms, early graduations, etc.

Yes, any of these options would present us with a challenge we'd have to overcome.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I am well aware of the long-standing relationship between IFI and FIRST. I may not have any intimate connections to anyone at either end, but I do have the experience of watching the last 10 years of that relationship as an outside observer.

As Nate said earlier, even if the snipes are not intentional, they have that appearance. For every person like me that's vocal enough to say something, there's dozens more thinking it. Regardless of whether or not my opinions are right or wrong, baseless or spot on, that's a bad thing.

Such appearances teach the wrong lessons about the world beyond high school. The lessons we teach unintentionally are just as important as all the lessons we set out to teach.

It is nice to see IFI doesn't seem to feel slighted by the date collision. I stand by my view that the net result is bad for both programs.

Maybe there truly isn't anything that could be done to avoid a date collision in 2014. Personally, I don't see the big deal with competing Easter weekend. It was not an insurmountable problem in 2013 when Easter collided with Week 5 of the FRC competition season. The team I work with is based in a Catholic school, and we competed that weekend. I agree its less than ideal, I'm just not sure that its a worse option than having the events overlap, given that so many people are key to BOTH programs.

I have a much harder time understanding a collision in 2015, when HQ was looking at other host cities, and significant structure changes are not out of the question, given the current overcrowding at CMP. Seems to me that some combination of shifting weeks, changing host cities, and changing the structure should have come up with a way to avoid it.

Frank has done a fantastic job improving transparency at HQ, which has done a tremendous service to fixing a lot of the problems that were brewing in and around the 2011/2012 seasons. This announcement feels a little too much like the old HQ for my liking. Maybe he'll chime in with some clarity soon.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Again, I fail to see any logical reason to assume that anyone intentionally made them both the same date. Do you think FIRST wants them to be the same? They have to know they run the risk of losing eyes on the event as well as participants who would have been there for FRC but are now at VEX. Maybe there was a venue conflict for other weeks. Maybe they could have resolved that by going to Atlanta or Indy, but it was too financially advantageous to stay in STL.

FIRST deserves to take flack for some (maybe even many) decisions they've made the last few years, but for you to single this event out as being absolutely their fault and a sign of ill will towards VEX is ridiculous.

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To take this a little further, Vex made the decision back when it parted ways with FIRST to hold their Championship during the same time frame as the FIRST World Championship. I am NOT saying this is the fault of Vex but the April time works great for both programs so unless one of them chooses a different month to start holding their Championship we will have this problem going forward. Additionally every year both programs change what weekend they are held on in April depending on event availability and other factors.

I highly doubt FIRST made the decision to stick it to Vex by having them on the same weekend it is just bad luck it happened. The odds they would have to be on the same weekend is pretty high considering there are only so many weekends in April.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

This situation is something organizations of the same nature run into. For example, before my days of a FIRSTER, I was a fighter who went to national championships every year. Due to how many qualifiers and when they could do the actual championship, they occurred on the same week of the 4th of July every year. Both organizations didn't do this intentionally, they just couldn't get the venues different dates based on the timeline of the qualifiers.

TBH I think its bad luck honestly. These events have to be planned out so far in advance it's not even funny. Also its kinda out of our control.

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If you think FIRST HQ is intentionally acting against the interests of other robotics competitions I have a secret document that shows who really killed Kennedy.

If you think this is a case of two multinational, multimillion dollar non profit agencies making multimillion dollar deals with large destination venues for years and years out in advance and have a very very small window of flexibility, I guess the next thing you're going to tell me is the sky isn't green and the earth isn't flat.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Point conceded. It is not solely HQs fault.

I'm even willing to concede that its probably not a sign of ill will.

I still think its one of the worst possible options, and having it happen two years in a row is even less acceptable.

I'll admit I'm ignorant of the AP testing problem -- we don't have such a thing in Canada. Our Grade 10 Literacy Test frequently collides with FRC events, and we work around it.

Surely VEX and HQ can work together to prevent this from becoming an annual problem though... Any reason VEX worlds couldn't be run on the week after FRC's week 7?

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

And Champs is going to be a metro-link ride from my house for the entirty of my high school life.

This makes me very happy. :D

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Ahem.

It looks like you're just arguing for the sake of argument now. Whether I'm spot on or making a baseless accusation shouldn't matter, right? ;)

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I actually posed this question earlier, not for the sake of argument. This year it interferes with Easter,but I don't thi it does future years(correct me if I'm wrong, I'm Jewish). Obviously this is ignoring the issue of venue contracts, but its not arguing for the sake of arguing(just that specific question/point)

EDIT: I'm on my phone and didn't realize my post was linked...my bad...

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

As a robotics program that has now existed in its 15th year, we have been involved with FRC, VEX and Botball about 10 years ago.
Currently, our program has found value in offering both VEX (and now VEX IQ) and FRC in a 7-12th grade program and school. The ability to offer VEX at Middle School and providing a continuum up until 12th grade has proved valuable in providing our students with a much better skill set and STEM experience, prior to post secondary opportunities.

Regardless of the reasons that led to the challenges of trying to attend both events for 2014 and the next several years, it is still disappointing to our program at the school level.
We all have goals that our own programs strive for, and one of them was certainly working hard to qualify for both World Championships. Both events offer life changing and inspiring experiences that are priceless for students and their families.

We intend to participate in both regardless (if we qualify for VEX), however, team members, students and parents have to choose which one to participate in. It also gets a lot more tricky for us in coordinating who goes where and is responsible for what....

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the season not Week 7> Week Off (because this is TOO SOON for teams to arrange to get to CMP after finding out Week 7) > Easter > CMP

What I'm suggesting is VEX's championship be placed on the week immediately following Week 7. This way, it would never interfere with FIRST Championship, because FIRST won't put championship that close to Week 7.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

No, in 2014 there is no extra week between Week 7 events and Easter weekend. This may not be true in future years.

This will become obvious when the calendar is updated.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Ah. Fair enough.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Certain schools in Ontario and other parts of Canada do have AP testing, but it is much less common here than in the states. Canadian universities still take these into account, however.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

The other thing that may not be true (beyond the existing timeframe that both FIRST and VEX have announced) is that they are on the same weekend.

2014, same weekend. 2015, same weekend. VRC has yet to announce after 2015.

If I know the fine folks at IFI and REC, they've probably already picked up on FIRST's announcement of the dates, and as likely as not will attempt to avoid the FIRST Championship weekend in 2016 and 2017. Now, for above-stated reasons, that might not be possible. After all, May is bad, April has too many potential conflicts... March has FRC regionals...

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Huh. None that I know of, but OK. Maybe I'm wrong.

Truth be told, I feel like colliding with an FRC regional weekend (Week 6, ideally) would be infinitely better than colliding with CMP. At least then, teams can schedule themselves around it.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

You (and plenty others in this thread) are failing to take into consideration other contracts that may already be in place with these venues.

Not only are there a very limited number of venues within the US that could accommodate the interesting demands of educational robotics competitions (such as power supply requirements, distance, layout, proximity to enough lodging spaces, and many other factors), you are assuming that these venues are not already in high demand for sports competitions, trade shows, and other large conventions.

The convention industry generally books shows in blocks of several years, if possible. This benefits the show (they have a guaranteed venue), the convention center (they can refine the needs of the show over time and bring in significant revenue), and the surrounding area (tourism, lodging, etc. brings revenue for local businesses). By the time this news went out to FIRST teams, I am very sure that the conflict of dates was known between the two competitions and already vetted to be unavoidable. Moreso, I trust that they were well aware of the effect this would have on teams, and had still determined this to be the best possible outcome given the circumstances.

Countless hours of planning and execution go into making these the best possible experiences for the teams. The event constraints and logistics are tremendous.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Uh. I was talking about a longterm solution to the problem so that its not an annual issue. Shifting VEX Worlds back by a few weeks into the FRC Regionals would allow teams to plan to attend both (even if it means they must travel to more distant regionals for their FRC participation).

I was in no way suggesting this be a thing before 2016, the next year for which VEX Worlds have not yet been announced (and thus is likely not yet contracted to a particular venue.)

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Just to break the somewhat hostile monotony of this thread...

Isn't anyone bummed that we're not going back to Orlando?? ::safety::

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

*raises hand*

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The only thing that I could ever ask anyone to try and get to happen, is someone somehow get the television show, The Great Food Truck Race, to stop by during that weekend... In general, I am a pro-food truck because you get "fast food" and its "cheap". The food selection at CMP, is somewhat limited to the local area and can be very chaotic and time-consuming, and this would just make it that little bit less.

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VERY SAD!!! I feel bad for everyone that never had a chance to experience Champs at Disney. No offense to Houston, Atlanta, or St. Louis, but Disney was truly special. You can't understand unless you were there.

On a related note, I truly hope that they figure out and solve the Finale Celebration overcrowding problem.
Not only was the 2013 Finale poorly run, but it was flat out unsafe.

All that being said there are many logistical positives about St. Louis, which make it a suitable place for Champs.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

We'll have three food trucks catering our offseason event. If it goes well, other offseasons - and maybe official events - may follow suit.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

no

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Very very disappointed in this decision. I will definitely be sending a letter to FIRST. Many participants and I always walk away from St. Louis in a bad mood, especially after ALL of the events on Saturday (not just the finale, even though that's a major aspect of our disappointment). Will post letter later on. Thoughts? Anybody actually like St. Louis (those that have been to championships outside of St. Lous, like Atlanta or Texas)?

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I like St. Louis, and we shouldn't complain about it, because it's a great place, and we don't know all the reasons that FIRST chose this location.

It's near a big airport, it's a pretty safe place, and there are plenty of great hotels in the area. The actual seating is really great, and the arena is very impressive. There's enough room for FIRST to get bigger if it needs to. In the area, there are a number of really neat restaurants that we always go to, and going up the arch is always a team favorite. I imagine that it is also cheaper/easier for FIRST, as they don't have to negotiate all the details with a new place, and they can keep everything mostly the same.

The food during the event is not great, but I don't remember ever being impressed anywhere else. As for the finale, that's not a problem with the location, but with FIRST's organization.

Having consistency is actually a good thing.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

I disagree with this, though. St. Louis's airport isn't nearly as big as Atlanta or Indy, the convention center is extremely cramped as it is, and there is absolutely no space to spread out like there was in Atlanta. Space was everywhere, and we only used half of the facilities there. Also, Atlanta had a great finale location, and the past finales in St. Louis were absolutely terrible and a logistical nightmare. It is actually a problem with the location because it takes over an hour to get there, and the place physically cannot hold the number of people that we have. Plus, the staff there was completely rude and the opposite of helpful. We walked away from that venue practically in tears because of the way we were treated.

I mean, I understand that there are obviously reasons that they chose it over the other candidates, but the only thing they said was that they were "impressed with the facilities," but everyone that I have talked to that saw the championship in Atlanta completely disagrees.

The fundamental problem is that the FIRST officials don't have to worry about organizing a team of people that needs to stick together, and they spend a lot of time in the VIP areas. i.e. they don't have the participant perspective.

Just something to much on.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Can you specify what your complaints were. I have never been to champs (yet...), but judging from what I've read in this thread, not everybody agrees that St. Louis is bad, and very few people hate it. The way you wrote your post kind of assumes that almost everybody who is reading it would agree with you, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Also, don't let the details take away from the entire experience. At an event the magnitude of championships, it is impossible to make everything perfect. And it doesn't make things any better that everybody who attends expects the event to be perfect and absolutely amazing in every way, because of how much effort they put into getting there. The reality is that championships, no matter how hard FIRST tries and how much money is put into it, will never live up to its expectations. Sure, there are things that FIRST can improve upon (like the finale), but in the end we need to be happy with what we get. The championships are supposed to be culmination of all the sweat and tears that teams put into their robots. It is up to you to enjoy it as that. You can love it for what it is, or hate it for what it isn't. The choice is yours.

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Totally agree. In most of the key areas that are needed to be looked at for Champs, it seems like Atlanta is ahead of St. Louis.

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Keep an eye out for my letter. I will post on this thread once it is completed. It explains all of this in detail. Everybody that I personally have talked to prefers Atlanta FAR more than St. Louis. I'm not just letting little details take away from the experience. I'm letting the really big logistical aspects take away from the experience. The only people that I have talked to that prefer St. Louis are the ones that have only been to St. Louis. There are a few exceptions, obviously, but that will always happen. Also, people that have posted in favor of STL have either a) never been elsewhere for cmp or b) citing very specific aspects of STL that they like, but not saying why it would be better than other locations, like, say Atlanta or Indy. I have yet to hear a very strong argument for holding it in STL.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

The past layout of the dome floor is simply awful. They put it on the short end (because of the main hospitality area) and there is simply not enough seating for the opening ceremony or the finals. Smaller teams that don't have enough people to go reserve seats are just simply out of luck.

FIRST choosing a better vantage point for their VIP's over a chance for all the students to watch really sticks in my craw.

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Well, clearly FIRST has.

I haven't ever been to Atlanta, so obviously can't comment on it, but certainly St. Louis seems at least manageable. I would hope that FIRST is still looking into optimizing the layout of the event.

I for one am willing to believe that FIRST has the best in mind when choosing the locations of the championships.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

But thats just it, FIRST shouldnt settle for a "manageable" championship setup. FIRST should only want the perfect setup for the World Championships. When you bring in over 100,000 people to a city for close to a week and have them spending the amount of money into an economy, bringing the exposure to that city, and giving you a deal to continually have that for usually 2-3 years, FIRST should be able to pick any city they really want.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

+1 for that

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Advanced placement exams have taken place in Canadian high schools for over 25 years.

Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

And, for the record, in British Columbia there is no such thing as a "Grade 10 Literacy Test" that frequently collides with FRC events.

Canada > Ontario, eh?

Jason

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

This hasn't been my experience at all when talking to people, and I've been to every Championship venue since they were at Disney. I can cite things I disliked about every Championship I've attended, St. Louis included, but I've never felt like because the event was in St. Louis it was somehow not successful or less enjoyable.

What's one good reason to host it in St. Louis? Maybe the large amount of help the event receives from local teams, volunteers & companies that all pitch in to help support the event. Not that you wouldn't find this in Atlanta or Indianapolis, but I think our local supporters do a pretty awesome job.

I'm looking forward to reading your specific complaints about St. Louis.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

+1

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Fortunately, ignorance can be fixed, if one but pays attention.

"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature." (Julius Caesar, Caesar and Cleopatra by George Bernard Shaw)

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

AP Exams in Canadian High Schools: Didn't happen in my school, nor any of my friends' schools that I'm aware of. Maybe they're more proliferous than I think, but I concede that they DO happen here.

I was actually aware that the Grade 10 Literacy Test is an Ontario-only thing, but, I'll admit my post made it sound like a Canada-wide thing. The truth of the matter is that until 2012, there were no regionals outside Ontario. It frequently is an issue for the ~70+ Ontario teams who have to leave several of their students home for at least one day of their competitions.

Ultimately though, I too am disappointed that HQ decided to keep CMP in St. Louis. The 3 championships that have been held there have all had fairly systemic issues related to venue size, poor planning, and a program that is rapidly outgrowing its format.

I only ever attended CMP in 2010, when it was in Atlanta. My experience there, was that the facilities we were using had a significant amount of room for us to expand.

Teams need more than 8 qualification matches.

We need more than 400 teams at CMP.

The 54 2014 regional events will qualify 324 teams to compete (not counting pre-qualified teams who earn a 2014 merit-slot and wasted wildcards). MICMP qualifies another 27, and the other 3 districts push the number very close to, if not over 400. Never mind HOF and Sustaining teams, and 2013 Champions.

CMP has to grow. Time restrictions mean it can't get longer, and teams can't play fewer qualification matches than 9, and ideally 10-12. Something's got to give.

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This is an issue that "just has to exist". The 2011 NJ Regional coincided with the HSPAs(NJ state-wide proficiency test). MAR events often collide with this(though I believe MAR tries to avoid/have one of the two PA events that weekend). Now, I had trouble finding exact dates of the test via Google(seeing various dates in March-May), but as Ontario eventually moves towards the district structure, provided the test doesn't collide with Championships, that will eliminate the issue by having SatSun events or off-weeks.


I think we just need to accept that until the FRC event structure is significantly redefined, we're unlikely to see the lifting of major collisions.

And I don't believe my question earlier was answered: other than Easter and existing venue contracts is there anything, competition structurewise, preventing VEX Worlds from being during the weekend between Week 7 and Championships?

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Yes, Atlanta Hartsfield is much bigger, but the other part of this statement is completely false. St. Louis Lambert is 27.5% larger than Indy based on number of passenger flights (255,276 for STL vs 200,253 for IND), and 25% larger than Indy based on number of gates (50 for STL vs. 40 for IND)

I have been to all FIRST championship locations, and I prefer St. Louis to Atlanta.

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I've been under the impression that the VEX competition structure is more flexible than the FRC structure, but I assume that the Anaheim Convention Center is a very popular venue for a lot of events and it's a favorite of the organizers and attendees for VEX worlds. There are key members of both competitions, and I assume one of the groups got backed into a corner where they had to take the dates. It's not ideal for anyone, but it is what it is.

I know people recognize the necessity of moving to a larger venue to support CMP yesterday, but I imagine FIRST HQ has to be getting a very beneficial deal to themselves and for the city for them to take this offer. Halfway through this extension on the venue agreement, half of the FRC population is going to be under the district system (assuming Eastern Canada, the Capital Region, and a few other locales put it together by then) which is going to streamline the competition and greatly slow the pace of increasing merit-based slots for CMP, and may even cause a small dip in the count. (For example, if slots are appropriated to an area under a district system relative to the population of teams in FRC, Ontario/Montreal could lose at least 10 "redundant" slots).

It feels like the program is crossing the canyon a lot of people saw coming 5 years ago and now they have to build the bridge across it on the fly. Under the existing system you're going to really feel the burn in CMP in 2-3 years spacewise even if they do everything possible, so this deal might just work well enough for where the program is now.

There are things FIRST can do: set minimum and maximum occupancy for a regional event to event out the probability of securing a merit-based slot from one of these events, add in more teams to CMP while definitely adding at least 1 more division, shrink pit size or size of something else... it can work. No venue is perfect and St Louis may not jive with long-term goals of the organization, but smart people work in HQ and they know what needs improving and they think they can work it all out in St Louis.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Why do we need more than 400 teams? It's a Championship event. A championship naturally is intended for the top teams. I personally don't see the necessity of adding more teams, though I would like to hear your reasons for your opinion.

Re: Championship Location Announced
 

Pardon the ramble, but I have a bunch of stuff in my head that wants to get out.

Part 1: location

I like how convenient it is to get between the pits and the fields in St. Louis. The layout could be tweaked further, but it's pretty good. However, it's FULL. There's not really room for growth.

The World Congress Center in Atlanta is spacious. The field layout in the Georgia Dome was great. The walk from pits to stands was a hike, but not ridiculously far, and I enjoyed the regular opportunity to experience the outdoors along the way.

I prefer the experience I had in Atlanta by a very small margin, but I was a few years younger then. As I get busier (and perhaps a bit slower), I appreciate the proximity of pits and dome in St. Louis more.

Part 2: size

Option A: don't have more teams attending The Championship Event

As more regions make the transition to the district model, the number of Regional competitions will eventually decrease. That will make it possible to keep the number of teams qualifying for The Championship from growing past the currently barely manageable size. Perhaps it could even be reduced.

Option B: have more teams attending The Championship Event

Simultaneously inviting more teams and giving each team more matches just isn't going to work without adding more fields, and probably more divisions. A larger Championship needs a venue larger than the Edward Jones Dome area. Having more divisions also makes the Einstein matches take longer. And how does FIRST deal with the after-event party getting even larger?

Option C: add another level to the competition hierarchy

Instead of making the FRC Championship bigger, how about making it smaller? During the current "off week" in the competition schedule, hold a set of "Conference" competitions to select 24 teams to send on to the finals. It makes things more complicated, and it adds to the interference with school.


Part 3: experience

That "interferes with school" thing is a problem. It keeps a lot of teams from planning to attend the Championship without competing, even though there's so much to get out of it anyway. Many people seem to think that each team should have the opportunity to attend every so often, just to give the students the experience. Well, nobody at FIRST is stopping them from showing up and enjoying the event, or attending the presentations, or volunteering to help run it.

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You're right, but the answer given is those two things are substantial enough to not need other roadblocks.
I completely concur, and I think 400 FRC teams is unnecessarily large. My hope is that as districts proliferate, the size of the (FRC) championship shrinks. I also hope that the FTC championship grows in number of teams - mostly to honor all teams in the winning alliance, not just the captain.

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Absolutely not true. So many people's perspectives go into these decisions, from all different backgrounds. Volunteers, team participants, FIRST staff/officials, VIPs, event managers - they are looking at all angles.

With the current 4-field structure, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

I will echo another post above me - Why do we "need" 400+?
(We DEFINITELY need more than 8 matches per team. That was unacceptable.)

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I agree that the floor layout isn't the best. And that things could be done to improve it.
But I also feel that the VIP's that give a lot of money to back this program deserve the best seating. I maybe alone here, but I think anywhere, Football, Hockey, etc, etc, you will see the big money supporters getting preferred seating. I think that there maybe a way to compromise here and work out some better seating. But I think that if someone is giving more money that me they get the better seats.
Also i understand that you spend a lot of money to get to champs, but the VIP's spend more than that on the program I'm sure.

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^ This. There's no easy-way of saying this, but let's be real. Sponsors who give thousands (and in some cases millions) of dollars to FIRST - in direct sponsorship, mentorship, whatever the case may be - are going to get a focus when it comes to designing some portions of the Championship experience.

That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some big improvements in the team experience (the biggest example being the wrap-party this year, but that's already been addressed in statements from FIRST)... It's just worth mentioning that yes, VIPs are going to get some things tailored to them. This should not be news to anyone with a realistic mindset about things.

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With all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about! I am one of those persons of which you speak. These people arrive on Monday and leave on Sunday, working 12, 13, 14 15 hour days. And many of them are VOLUNTEERS....Yes, that is a pretty full week, so you can have the top quality event you are complaining about.

What specific ideas would you bring to the table to improve the event? Email them to frcteams@usfirst.org or me directly and I will forward them myself, unalderterated. And post them here so all can see.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might be asked to be on the committee!

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To build off of what Libby and Rosiebotboss have stated.

Many of the FIRST staff, like Frank, are out "on the floor" for almost all of their time at CMP barely having enough time to stop and eat during their sometimes 15 or 16 hour days. Yes some of the staff is dedicated to the VIP and press areas. However that is because they do need to take care of the VIPs from the sponsor organizations and people from potential future sponsors. The fact is w/o those sponsors, FIRST as we know it, would not exist. Sure as teams we bear a lot of the cost of participating but not the full cost. FIRST does try its best to provide the best possible experience for teams, but we MUST celebrate our current sponsors, and recruit new sponsors that make it possible. I assure you that the overall team experience at CMP is a top priority for FIRST.

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I like the Culinaria/Schnucks Market on 9th & Olive.

I was a freshman when I attended the Houston CMP in 2003. In my mind it doesn't approach the high quality of the St. Louis event I had the privilege to attend a decade later as a mentor. This is true across all the parameters I care deeply about, including "average number of cockroaches encountered per day."

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I've said this before. The fundamental issue, though, is that they don't have to deal with organizing 20-60+ youth and their parents in this venue. It was much easier to do so in Atlanta than in St. Louis. In fact in STL it's virtually impossible to stick together as a team because the layout is so cramped, convoluted, and confusing.

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You've said this quite a few times now. As someone who hasn't been to Atlanta can you please elaborate as to what makes St. Louis so much more difficult?

It seems to me that the FIRST staff organizing, 400 FRC teams, 3 different levels, FLL, FTC, and FRC, plus multiple divisions of each, plus VIPS, plus vendors and sponsors all while making sure that the teams have a good time and don't have the issues you are alluding too would have a much more daunting task than keeping a team together, So I'm sure that they understand the difficulty with organizing.

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Again, there are people who weigh into decisions who DO have team experience.

So, again, you're incorrect; FIRST does think about these things.

I'm going to echo Pat. What are your specific issues? Make them known.

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I would love to be on the committee! There are so many aspects of the championship that could be much better for the participants, that I have voiced to FIRST a number of times.

I understand that a lot of these people are out there on the floor. I'm talking about the logistics of organizing a rather large group of youth and parents, and keeping them together in the extremely cramped venue in St. Louis. While Atlanta had fewer teams, it was still exponentially more spacious and open than St. Louis. With the big wide foyers, the glass walls, the huge lawn, open concept dome concourse layout, and nearby open and spacious venues (such as Centennial Olympic Park and the CNN Center). Not to mention a huge airport hub that is actually cheaper for most teams to fly into than STL. The St. Louis facilities are cramped, small, filled to the brim with people, and stuck in a place where there is no outdoor space but a tiny concrete "courtyard" and sidewalks next to the streets. Plus, crowd management in St. Louis (from the event staff of the venue and the science center both) was absolutely terrible. This is something has been said numerous times that will be fixed for the coming year, and never actually does.

You're kind of comparing apples to oranges here. Yes, I know they have first-hand experience with organizing. But organizing a group of high school kids (that don't know the area or venue) multiplied by a hundred other teams that never seem to actually know what is going on, in a venue with such a convoluted layout is a little different. Maybe not as daunting, but just different. I understand the daunting task that they have. I'm just saying that we have a different kind of daunting task. Maybe it's not as horrible as it seems. Maybe my particular team has been particularly unlucky with this. Who knows. I'm just sharing my personal experiences.

Again, stay tuned for my response letter. This will also be complete with pictures and personal stories from the participants and those of us mentors who have had to deal with them. You may be surprised at how horribly we have been treated by the event staff in St. Louis over the past couple years.

Also, I will say this. Even if St. Louis was a great place, I feel that it needs to move around the country more than every 7 or so years. Not only does this give the kids experience in different cities, but it also gives these different regions the excitement of hosting championships and seeing what FIRST is all about. Give the west coast a chance at it for a year or two, then move it to the east coast, then to the midwest, and so on. Maybe this is impossible or not feasible. I don't necessarily have all the facts. This is just my $0.02. You can take it for whatever it's worth to you.

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I also think that, despite all of St. Louis' downsides, there are a number of seemingly little things that could make the experience ten times better while we are there. But again, I will address those at a later date.

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I disagree. Atlanta's layout was a lot more spread out, and my experience is that it was easier for people to get misplaced along the path from one place to another. The tactic of making sure everyone knows the precise destination works fine in both venues, and it seems to me that it's easier for everyone to naturally take the same path to the same place in St. Louis.

Cramped is a value judgement. I'll grant that there's less space to spread out in the St. Louis venue, unless you wander a little bit away from the main action.

Convoluted? Not in my experience. Around the America's Center/Edward Jones Dome complex, I find the directions to get from place to place quite straightforward compared with the multiplicity of options at the Georgia World Congress Center.

Confusing is again a value judgement. Here, though, I'll point out that it took me less than two days to figure out effective routes to most locations through the America's Center, while it wasn't until my third year in Atlanta that I had come up with a quick and efficient way to get from the pits to the stands.

I always saw plenty of unfilled space upstairs in the America's Center when I had occasion to walk around. If you need a non-cramped spot to gather, it's there. There's a very nice outdoor space just to the east of the Edward Jones Dome, comparable to the West Plaza between the Georgia Dome and the convention center in Atlanta. The park area surrounding the Gateway Arch isn't significantly farther from the venue than Centennial Olympic Park was. I'm sorry you seem to have such a bad opinion of what St. Louis offers in the way of useful space, but on these issues at least your complaints are not overly compelling.

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This is all easy to say when you have your reserve seat on the floor to watch all of the ceremonies but tell this to the team that goes home early because there's no place for them to sit to watch the finals.

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Ya, I am sorry to say that I have seen this happen a few times; the teams leaving early part. I guess the question has to be, which should be preferred: allowing participating teams to get to reap the rewards of their hard work over the year or keep the 6-figure/7-figure sponsor happy. I kinda dont see the reasoning behind keeping a sponsor happy but then putting out teams.

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I'm not gonna take sides in this argument, but the reasoning of keeping a sponsor happy is that without sponsors, there would be no championship/season/FIRST in the first place.

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I'm quite certain she would feel the same way if she was sitting in the stands.

Sure there are ways to optimize layouts to get more desirable seating for teams, but claiming that a VIP doesn't understand/care because they already have a good seat is pretty disingenuous.

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Just seconding this recommendation. My team ate here 3 or 4 times in 2012 due to the cheap food but insanely good burgers. (and sometimes some live music!)

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Let's leave aside names here (and besides, Libby is a bad example to use since she's usually presenting the Imagery Award). The number of VIPs that get the primo seats is not so large in number that moving them out would help much--you might get one more team on the ground, but which team gets that rub? (Chairman's is already spoken for, and the 12 Einstein teams won't fit.)

When I watched Einstein 2012 from the tornado seats, there was plenty of room for more teams to get in. (Not that you wanted to be that high up that day, but that's different.) For the fiery hoops you'd have to jump through to give those seats to students, I'd just rather show some appreciation for those that make FIRST able to do what it does at the price that it does.

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IndySam's point is that the Einstein field faces the VIP boxes up top - in Atlanta, they were on the 'long side' of the arena rather than the 'short side' in STL.

I'm not trying to say that this layout is ideal - I'm just echoing Pat's point that FIRST is going to arrange the field so that VIPs have the opportunity to see the finals and major award ceremonies that are held on that stage. It is a fact of life that without their support, we would not be able to have FIRST events on the scale that we do currently. If VIPs and sponsors don't enjoy the show, they might not support us next year. And then where would we be?!

I wasn't saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's realistic.

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Sounds like you need to bring a more manageable number of students to Championship. If your team doesn't have the support it needs to supervise students in this environment, then cut back on the number of kids you bring.

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I will say it's completely the right call. I work for Boeing and we have executives that come out to the Championship every year. I want them to have the best experience possible, including viewing matches and speeches, because their support means Boeing team mentors can receive grant funding and help keep many teams running financially. The people that get to make the call on whether FIRST teams will receive millions of dollars in funding over a period of years should get the royal treatment. It's no secret that many companies are having to cut back, the least we can do is show our thanks to those that are still supporting FIRST on a much different level than most of us do.

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Moving the VRC World Championship forward would require moving all of the VRC regional qualifying events forward, too.

That would mean moving forward all of the tournaments required to qualify for regional qualifying tournaments. Speaking as a VRC event/region organizer... the thought doesn't excite me.

Is it possible? Perhaps. But it is also equally possible to move the FRC build period into the six weeks before Christmas, and start the FRC competition season in January.

Equally impossible? Maybe that would have been better wording.

Jason

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Totally missed my point big guy.

Libby, Thanks for explaining my point.

I probably should have worded that better. I would never begrudge Libby her seat on the floor. If you have seen her at the champs she is non stop work.

My point is that it could be arranged much better. The hospitality area is looking at the Lego championship 90% of the competition and you can't see anything that's happening from up there. It would be better served if it was facing an FRC field.

VIP's could be given floor seats or a reserved area in the stands down low during opening ceremonies and the finals, most are down there anyway. I know that during the opening ceremonious most of the people in those hospitality area seats are regular FIRTSers like me who are lucky enough to have the connections to get a VIP pass.

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If this argument is centered on VIP seats there are 360* of suites that can be used. No reason the boxes can't be moved to the sidelines, unless FIRST is using one of the special much larger box/club areas in the end zones, which I'm unsure of.

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The section that FIRST currently uses is not one of the boxes, but rather a club seating section. They are located behind the score board on each end. There is a open lobby area that has a sort of restaurant/ lounge area and then a couple sections of seats that open to the stadium floor below.
The Edward Jones Dome has two of these club sections each located on an end of the stadium.

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I was asked why I think CMP needs to be bigger than 400 teams by several people above.

Lets look at a comparison of the last few years.

2013: 2524 Total Teams, 400 Teams at CMP, 15.8%
2012: 2339 Total Teams, 400 Teams at CMP, 17.1%
2011: 2065 Total Teams, 352 Teams at CMP, 17.0%
2010: 1808 Total Teams, 344 Teams at CMP, 19.0%
2009: 1677 Total Teams, 348 Teams at CMP, 20.7%
2008: 1501 Total Teams, 340 Teams at CMP, 22.6%
2007: 1301 Total Teams, 344 Teams at CMP, 26.4%
2006: 1133 Total Teams, 344 Teams at CMP, 30.4%
2005: 988 Total Teams, 340 Teams at CMP, 34.4%
2004: 927 Total Teams, 292 Teams at CMP, 31.4%
2003: 787 Total Teams, 291 Teams at CMP, 36.9%

As you can see. Teams attending championship as a percentage of all FRC teams has been in steady decline.

2014: 54 Regionals, MICMP awards 27+, MARCMP awards 14+, PNWCMP awards 14+?, NECMP awards 14+?, at least 393 in-season merit based CMP seats, 98.3%+ of all CMP (assuming 400 seat cap)
2013: 58 Regionals, MICMP awards 27, MARCMP awards 14, 389 in-season merit based CMP seats, 97.2% of all CMP
2012: 52 Regionals, MICMP awards 18, MARCMP awards 12, 342 in-season merit based CMP seats, 85.5% of all CMP
2011: 48 Regionals, MICMP awards 18, 306 in-season merit based CMP seats, 86.9% of all CMP
2010: 43 Regionals, MICMP awards 18, 276 in-season merit based CMP seats, 80.2% of all CMP
2009: 40 Regionals, MICMP awards 18, 258 in-season merit based CMP seats, 74.1% of all CMP
2008: 41 Regionals, 246 in-season merit based CMP Seats, 72.3% of all CMP
2007: 37 Regionals, 222 in-season merit based CMP Seats, 64.5% of all CMP
2006: 33 Regionals, 198 in-season merit based CMP Seats, 57.5% of all CMP
2005: 31 Regionals, 186 in-season merit based CMP Seats, 54.7% of all CMP
2004: 26 Regionals, 156 in-season merit based CMP Seats, 53.4% of all CMP
2003: 23 Regionals, 138 in-season merit based CMP Seats, 47.4% of all CMP

CMP has already reached nearly 100% saturation of merit-based teams. Additionally, this doesn't account for the other merit-based qualifiers (Sustaining, HOF, and reigning champions, reigning EI winner)

At this point, you either have to start qualifying fewer teams, which is difficult to do fairly, or make CMP bigger.

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Fair, scalable Worlds qualifications is one of the main benefits of districts. In fact, it's a key mission of the model, precisely because of the realistic maximum size of Champs. It really shouldn't have to get bigger, nor should it. 400 is a lot of teams--and perhaps more importantly, a lot of volunteers and supporting resources. We've certainly got some growing pains in this era, but the upshot shouldn't require a drastic size increase.

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Pat mentioned it, but the VIP area used is a special club/lounge area, with its own seating dropped down in front. That way, VIPs can stay up in the lounge area to watch Einstein (and not take up normal arena seats, which leaves room for the kids). The only VIPs on the floor are those speaking in the ceremonies, and anyone in their party. Most of them are upstairs in that lounge, as there is a reception after Einstein in that space (and there's food. Who wouldn't stay with the food?!) The smaller boxes along the 'long side' of the arena are the tiny private ones - which are reserved for media interviews and meetings, and would not serve the purpose of a VIP lounge well, since each box only fits about 10 people.

In Atlanta, this club area was on the 'long' side - but didn't have enough seating for people to watch matches - in fact, matches were displayed on TVs. As a result, the 'kid-award-recipient' seating was in the regular stands, and all floor seats were for VIPs.

Now in STL ~800 students (2 award-recipient wristbands per team) are in the floor seats, with VIPs up in the club area.

This means that ALL available arena seats are for teams/volunteers to watch the Einstein matches. It's still a crunch, but then again it's very hard to see such a small field from most of the seating -- which is why the matches AND ceremonies are displayed on the divisional field screens. Sitting at either one of the divisions nearby Einstein would work as well. (Yes, I am VERY aware that it's not the same- and that sometimes the sound wasn't working well in the divisions- it's just another thought.)

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Which is why FIRST is moving towards Disricts. In a few years, we may well find ourselves with a Super Regional Model as well. The District Champs would play in a Super Regional, say one in the 4 quadrants of the US, northeast, south east, mid west and west coast for example. Then the teams would qualify for Worlds from the Super Regionals. World Champs would still be 400 teams.

From a venue perspective, where else would be an appropriate venue? What city has a domed stadium with a huge conference center attached with 25,000 hotel rooms within wlaking distance?