FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Posted on the FRC Blog, 11/22/13: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...Adds-Additives

Both cool and interesting. Thoughts?

Is this post a game hint? ;) :rolleyes:

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

It seems that, by selecting to enter the printer lottery, you're likely to sacrifice any chance of selecting other high-value options.

It's hard to say what the impact of the choice is without seeing what else is available, though.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

I can't even express how happy our President was when I showed her this

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Jumping on this offer may, or may not, be in a team's best interest. As Madison pointed out, it's a gamble. Every team needs to weigh the cost of getting a 3D printer over other needs this coming season may present.

I'm thrilled that the offer has been made, but..... that doesn't necessarily mean we are going to jump on it.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

exactly. I'm excited about a free 3d printer as much as the next guy, but if I look back on it, there was very little, if anything, we could've used a 3d printer for on our robot last year. It will definitely be useful for small profile parts, but I may be more inclined to get a couple of batteries and some pneumatics equipment over a lottery ticket for a 3d printer (and while we do get credits back, all of the items we want could be gone by then).

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

How exactly does FIRST Choice Work? I am assuming that FIRST Choice will be replenished with new items after the first round. Is this true?

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Looking on the bright side, it probably will free up Talons for those who don't want a printer.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

It's not explicit, but do those printers require the team be US-based? Not that it affects me, but we have lots of Canadian, Israeli, Mexican, etc friends.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

In years past there has been no restocking. When something is gone its gone until next year.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Rollin' the dice. FIRST seems to like to do this kind of "pick your poison" approach to the preseason; a kitbot that you must commit to without any sort of guiding details and now betting all your chips on one tool. It's somewhat interesting and somewhat frustrating/aggravating.

Kudos to VEX, for saying: "Yes, we will give you a month to look at our new stuff. Here's the cad, go poke at it. You know what you're getting". I'm beginning to like the guys that aren't tied as closely to the hip to FIRST as everyone else. It's making for a more interesting preseason.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Gambling in FIRST! Awesome!

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

I think we might go with the 3D printer just so are mentor doesn't have to deal with the stress of FIRST choice.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Now I just have to hope my Donor's Choose project gets funded before hand. That would make this whole decision easier :)

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Well depending on the specific printers and kits offered it may or may not be a good deal.

A top quality kit is under the $600 in credits it would cost you.

Couple of thoughts:

1. If it is a kit verify when they will get delivered. Most kits only require a few hours to assemble but can require quite a bit of time to calibrate. It does not look like you will get them before the build season starts. You will have failed prints and it can take some time to learn how to get the best quality.

2. Make sure you get a printer that can print ABS. PLA will be too brittle for any major robotic items.

3. Maximize the build area and make sure you get a heated bed.

4. Safety, Safety, Safety - 3d printers use a lot of heat (ABS prints at 210-225 centagrade) you should never leave them printing unattended. This can be a problem. Some large prints can take hours. I had one part of a robotic hand that took 6+ hours. Also, ABS fumes are not the best for you - make sure you use in a well ventilated area. Also, if you use ABS you are likely to want to use acetone to finish parts, glue parts, or as a bed adhesive. It is flammable and fumes are bad. Skin contact should be avoided. Wear gloves (just make sure the Acetone does not dissolve the gloves), well ventilated area, no flames.

5. Spend a little more on better filament. While the cheap stuff is $5-$8 a roll less you will waste a lot of time on curled prints and jams.

For those in the Northern Virginia area I will be doing a session on 3d printing on Dec 7th at the DC FRC workshop. See http://dc-first.org/ for information and https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/8PTYNW3 to register.

Also, if you want to get a jump on the rush the US STEM foundation in cooperation with Team 1885 will be doing a 3D printer camp Dec 16-20 in Mclean, Va. The cost is $750 and includes a Prusa I3 printer and spool of filament. We make sure you walk out with a working 3D printer. See the attached for more details and you can register at:
https://www.fundaround.com/ustem/201...camp-dec-2013/

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Not saying it's a bad thing, but VEX is running a business whereas the kitbot plays a part of the game. VEX has no reason to delay their products until Kickoff (they would make less money), but there could be a very good reason why the kitbot is kept a secret.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

I am not an authority but all NASA funding is tied to US based teams, so I would think it's likely there's a similar restriction for this (though the fact that they didn't mention it seems like a glaring omission, so maybe it won't be a problem).

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

They could probably play games and say "Well, these international teams are getting funded by money from Makerbot/etc. while these American teams are getting funded by NASA/Government money."

In the end, it would put a cap on how many non-US teams get funding.

Sounds kinda sketchy, but it sounds legal to me (and, of course, that's all that matters, right?)

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

The kitbot can have specific parts for the game. I can't remember if it was 2010 or 2012 that it had a 'lift kit' to help it over the bump. But you generally know exactly what you're getting. You're getting c-channel (unless they changed to sheet this year) with some belts, pulleys, wheels, and a couple transmissions. There is really no mystery.

We've never struggled to use all the parts that come with a kitbot, though last year we opted for not getting one.

People looking at the 3D printers need to think very very hard about it.3d printers require specialized technical knowledge to set up, print, and maintain. In addition, teams have to ask themselves how useful a 3d printer would be to their FIRST program. I can't think of a single part on our robot last year that could have been 3D printed. Not one.

A lot of people think '3d printer! cool!" but don't really think about everything that has to go into making one work effectively. Heck, look how many FIRST choice 3D printer jobs were never purchased.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

While I know that we will opt out of the 3d printer, I think a 3d printer can be useful. If our team had a 3d printer, we wouldn't use it as a replacement for current manufacturing techniques. We would find new parts to make with a 3d printer that would make it a benefit to our team. Furthermore, we might use it to speed up our manufacturing. For example, even though we can turn spacers, we might start printing spacers so that we can spend our manpower on making other parts.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

They did release that this year's kit bot is sheet metal construction and it's aprox top speed.

As mentioned it could give hints to the game or rules. Last year it was set up to confirm to the new perimeter rules and keep a similar L x W ratio as the previous max dimensions. As you mentioned they included the lift kit in the past and they also included the game specific wheels for Lunacy.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Wait, I was so caught up in the 3D printing part of the blog that I missed the most important part of it. We get 150! credits for round 1 of first choice and 450! for round two. That will either mean that some parts are going to have to be way upped in value or they will fly off the shelves faster than the towels at a Walmart on Thanksgiving! :yikes:

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Or there are a lot of game pieces....

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

This is critical to the decision. After kickoff, once we know the game, and game-specific materials are available for 'free' on FIRSTChoice, those of us who have opted for, and received, the 3-D printer will have given up the privilege of obtaining these resources through FIRSTChoice.
So the decision becomes this: Do we want to buy a 3-D printer, after we have researched it, know exactly what we're getting, and can select any necessary upgrades with our own money? Or get one that may or may not be precisely what is perfect for our team, for 'free'? And in doing so, making us pay for any game-specific objects in January that other teams are receiving for 'free'.
Certainly makes the cheese more binding.
Also, I wouldn't automatically assume the kit chassis is c-channel-based. I have no direct evidence to the contrary, but it may be a dangerous assumption to make.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Tom, you hit the nail on the head here. I've been responsible for running and servicing the 3D printers at my job for the last 5 years or so, and they're quirky machines at best (These are 'production' capacity machines). Yes, they do provide an awesome medium for prototyping and small parts production, but to truly make use of the machine's capabilities, the person operating it should have a good understanding of how the machine works. I can only imagine how the experience could be with a 'DIY' or Entry Level machine.

With that being sail, the 'ground floor' level of 3D printing is probably a bit more useful than you might think. There are a lot of parts that I've made over the years, spacers, mounting fixtures, gears, etc, that are fairly forgiving when printed as long as you know how to turn the machine on and press start. Things like sensor mounts and interfaces are probably a perfect example of this, last year our encoder mounts for just about everything (I think everything, by the CMP) were made using a 3D printer. None of them required exploitation of any of the 'tricks' that can be done with 3D printing, most were just plastic 'plates' with some sort of integrated spacer or interfacing geometry.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

The kit chassis is sheet metal, that was announced over the summer somewhere.

As for game pieces, with a 3D printer maybe you can print them?

..
In any case, THANK YOU to FIRST for coming up with a reasonably sane distribution plan.

FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

So our team is debating this decision right now. Our biggest question is whether we could buy the parts we would usually get from FIRST choice after getting the printer. Would they be out of stock? Would they even be available to buy? It's a huge risk. And shipping times after that - especially for crucial prototyping equipment (game pieces!).

It might be beneficial financially (we're buying a printer regardless), but what about logistically? Especially for a team up where we live.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Dollars ≠ FIRST® Choice credits.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

The FC Rules specifically describe the international shipping options for 3D printers, so this is open to internatonal teams and US teams.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

I see your point, and materials is typically the inhibiting factor with the 3-D printing. Although I have had a different expereince with the technology. I have been a part of team 3824 since it's creation and we have had the privilege of utilizing 3-D printing for 3, coming on 4 years now. We have partnered with Oak Ridge National Laboratory and UT Battelle to open up a government facility, the Manufacturing Demonstration Facility, to ourselves and 9 other area teams. With this partnership all fo the teams involved have had extensive exposure to additive manufacturing. Our team had the first fully printed robot 2 years ago and last year had a printed robot that incorporated carbon fiber.

That being so we have used 3-D printing to a large extent and use it in many practical ways such as: Brackets for pulleys and tensioners and housing/ mounting brackets for electronics (lights, cameras, battery boxes,sensors, etc.) We also have used 3-D printing in higher stress areas.

The main thing to remember is that with 3-D printing you can almost make anything you can design and test it within the day.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

I think it's reasonable to point out the level of performance and quality you are getting out of your parts is NOT what teams will be able to replicated with the printers available on FC.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Very true... Our team is lucky to get to use Ultem. Though we also have a printer made by the same company at our school that has very high quality prints made out of ABS.

I am also interning at ORNL along with two other Team 3824 members. We have been designing FIRST specific parts in CAD that will end up online for FIRST teams to use. On a day to day basis, we use all three of the printers available through FIRST choice, and they are all able to handle the parts we have been designing. Our team, along with ORNL, has helped get the 3D printers into FIRST Choice, so it would be a safe bet to say we are all for other teams getting a printer :rolleyes:

As for the performance of the parts I understand you may not want an important bracket made out of ABS or PLA supporting 30+ pounds on a competition robot, it is great to be able to print a bracket in a number of hours so a team can continue progressing its design.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Also don't forget that materials are constantly being expermented with and innovated on the printers available on FIRST Choice. There's ALOT of new materials coming that can be printed on these printers. Also, I know of some experimentation with rubber materials and those could be useful in robotics with shock absorbtion. Students who have access to this technology will be able to innovate and use these materials in ways no one has ever thought of before. There are some service bureaus that are donating parts to FIRST teams this year that have this capability. That is, in part, the reasoning behind why Oak Ridge National Laboratory mentors on FIRST team 3824 have been pushing for the printers in FIRST Choice. They want to see what young, educated, and almost free minds can come up with using this technology!

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

I think what Adam was getting at had little to do with the fact that the machine was printing in Ultem, but the fact that a machine that can print Ultem is a completely different beast than what's available in First Choice.

Don't get me wrong, the FIRST Choice Printers are more than capable of handling a lot of 'odd work' for most (if not all) FRC teams with very little expertise. It's reasonable to expect all of those printers to be able to handle Things like brackets, mounts, interfaces, etc - but implying that they'd be able to handle high stress or high precision components is a bit of a dangerous proposition.

A Fortus for example, whether is be running ABS, or Ultem 9085 is a $100,000 Machine that you don't just 'plug' into a wall outlet. Those machines are intended to be '3D production' Machines rather than a Rapid Prototyping Machine, or a '3D Printer'. Comparing the parts that come out of a Fortus, or even a Dimension Machine are misleading to say the least.

In any case, I don't mean to belittle the efforts of you and your team in getting more 3D printers out to as many teams as possible, it's really awesome. I'm just a bit concerned at some of the misinformation being thrown about regarding what each machine is actually capable of and would hate to see teams losing a bunch of time because they gambled on something they didn't fully understand.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

And I'm not criticizing either (both 3824 and the FC machines), just clarifying that a CNC sherline will never be a Haas, in the same way that a makerbot will never be the machines 3824 has.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Makerbots can be just as helpful, though. We have a variety of consumer printers that we use for parts not meant for structure, such as camera mounts, motor couplings, and motor brackets. These printers can be used for several complex pieces on your robot, you just need a little experience. If anyone has any questions about how to use these printers, we have accumulated quite the experience after a couple of seasons of utilizing this technology.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

It isn't reasonable to tell every team reading on chief that a makerbot will be "just as helpful" as the $100k machines you have access to.

The makerbot can do some useful things for FRC, but to hype them up as just as good as top level industry machines is unfair for the teams who might believe that statement, then dump all their FC credits into a makerbot.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

I would like to see some initiative to get every team laser cutters capable of cutting wood/plastic (like the epilog zing) instead of the 3D printers. Right now, everything is all about 3D printers, mostly because they have the potential to evolve into amazing tools and the coolness factor. But in 2012 my team had equal access to a Zing laser cutter and a consumer 3D printer (not sure which brand). We utilized them both. And in 2013 we used the Zing a whole lot more, and never once touched the 3D printer. Everything that we could make with a 3D printer, we could make using a laser cutter, ABS sheets, and solvent bond. And the final products we much stronger than they would be if we 3D printed them (to put it in perspective, we used this method to make our drivetrain sprockets, and they never failed on us).

But, unfortunately, these laser cutters have been overshadowed by 3D printers, so they will probably never become popular in FRC.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Perhaps the cost is the main reason why. I would suspect it is possible to increase a laser cutter's popularity if there were an abundance of companies out there that sold an affordable one.
We have a 3D printer that cost us over $55,000. We still bought a Makerbot Replicator 2 afterwards because of the much lower cost. Our Makerbot wont make FRC structural parts for us, but there are a ton of things we can use it for, other than that.
You are referring to a laser engraver/cutter, right?

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Okay I see your point that the MakerBots do not have the manufacturing capability of a Stratasys machine. I was just trying to say that with creative ideas and uses for complex parts, teams are able to utilize this technology maybe not at the same level, but with the same frequency of occurrence in their robot. When I said that these FIRST Choice printers can be just as helpful, I meant it. Engineering and innovation transcend monetary value. Anyone can be innovative with any materials, and I have seen many less-privileged teams surpass other veteran teams due to a creative idea and dedication to develop that idea. In any case, I feel that this technology will bring FIRST to a new level.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives
 

Yes, I am. For some reason, I remembered the price being cheaper than it really is. The Zings start at $8,000 (and honestly the $8,000 is more than good enough for FRC purposes). It's still not that far out of the range of possibility for many FRC teams, although maybe not as widespread as I once thought.