FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Can anyone explain how the 3D printer lottery works on FIRST Choice? I was trying to find a thread or more details and didn't see any.

The "lottery" costs 150 Choice points. I assume you have to be in the lottery to collect one of the 600-point printers?
Also, if you don't win the lottery do you get those points back to spend elsewhere?

I'm curious as to your odds of winning the lottery -- basically, what are the odds that you want a 3D printer, don't get it, and now are stuck unable to get anything else because all the good stuff has been taken?

Seems a bit strange we are going through this type of gambling in FRC

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Seen this?

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...Adds-Additives

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I am not meaning to offend anyone, but I really think this is just an advertisement. There is a mere less than ten (10) percent rate if everyone goes for it.

Disregard:

Never Mind. I was wrong: You will lose your credits if you do not get the 3D printer (I think)! Just go and buy a makerbot yourself, if you are so interested!

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

You get all the credits back if you do not get a 3D printer. The only problem is you miss the beginning of First Choice. When looking through the parts available and credit amounts it seems that a credit is worth about 1 per. I think you would be saving money if you got the 3D printer and not the parts.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Cool. My bad! Let me edit my last post to prevent confusion!

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Yes, but its about more than just how much an item costs. If there is other stuff on there that you would have needed to buy anyways, and that stuff is more valuable to your team than a 3D printer, then (EDIT: don't) get the 3D printer. My team still has 9 crappy graphics cards laying around in our shop because "the only good stuff left wasn't worth the credits."

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

You want to ship a couple of those "crappy cards" to me and I'll put them to good use.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I'm not sure I'm following the logic of this.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

What I'm saying is that just because a 3D printer is worth a lot of money, doesn't mean that it is worth anything to your team. If it is going just sit in a corner, occasionally being used to print a prototype (or even worse, sitting there because nobody bothered to learn how to use it), then why on earth wouldn't you just get a couple of talons, a CRIO chassis, some game pieces, etc. instead.

EDIT: and the other part is that you are going to have to buy stuff like talons and batteries anyways, but you probably don't plan on buying a 3D printer anytime soon.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I think you left the word "don't" out of your first post. Great way to confuse folks.

I agree, though. Now, I will point out that 3D printers can be very useful--for the right purposes. OTOH, you do have to know how to use them, which knowledge isn't something that every team has. (Though the ones that do have it tend to happily share that knowledge.)

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I have to agree with EricH on the learning part. I have been 3D printing for well over a year now and am still learning tricks and better ways to do thing. I have boxes of failed prints for all that effort.

Also, don't forget the cost of supplies. Good quality filament cost about $30 or more for a 1KG spool (and trust me you want to pay for quality). Add to
that painters tape, kapton tape, or other adhesives for your print bed.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I have a print running in the basement on a Solidoodle 3 right now. It has been a year since I first got my hands on a Solidoodle 2 and, as mentioned above... I'm still learning.

The idea that a 3D printer is some kind of miracle machine where you just push a button and whatever you can imagine miraculously appears has been somewhat overhyped in the media.

They are cool, they are useful, but there are limitiations, both to what you can print and to the reliability of the machine... well, to be fair, it hasn't been the machine itself so much as operator error and perhaps some 'dirty' PLA filament that caused intermittent clogging of one of my print nozzles. That happened just about the time I was getting the printer figured out, and the day before a group of middle school kids was coming for a visit to see it working. (Thankfully I had a glow-in-the-dark Yoda printed in advance as a souvenir... the machine was 'down' when they visited.)

So definitely consider getting the printer if 3D printing is a field that both mentors and students want to explore... but expect to spend a fair bit of time getting it set up and working and learning its limitations... and its abilities. If you are getting your first 3D printer as part of this year's KoP, you may find it more useful for next years' build season rather than this year's. In fact, this year it may serve more as a distraction than an asset...

Most of today's low-end 3D printers are a lot like the Model T Ford. They can get you where you are going, but you'll have to learn to drive and you might have to turn a few wrenches along the way. Twenty years from now, I expect, we'll be looking back and laughing at how primitive they really were!

Jason

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

+1000 on what Jason said here.

I would not expect to get a 3D printer figured out and working in the limited build season. Too much going on and too much at risk.

My recommendation is that teams look at 3d printing as a set of off-season projects when you have time and less pressure to get things figured out.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I agree with the above 3 posters. Know and understand the technology to apply it correctly. Set the expectations appropriately. Understand the costs.

I own several printers and have been working with 3D printing for over 10 years (some of the printers I have access to are very expensive): I understand the value of the hype to the industry but the risk of the hype is confusion, dissatisfaction and fear (in the case of 3D printed weapons) that gets created by the hype.

No one should expect that you'll dump a quarter in a 3D printer at the supermarket and get a working firearm or robot printed on the spot. It does not work like that. It's slow. It requires finesse. It requires commitment. Like all newer technology it is quickly evolving. The cost of the printers is not always proportional to the value of the printer for a specific purpose.

I think it is fantastic when FIRST teams use this technology. However I can certainly understand when a FIRST team decides this technology is not necessary for them at this time. Those decisions are as unique as the teams themselves.

I speak only for myself when I say that I actually hope that at no point in the future does this technology merely come down to 'press this button', 'don't ask questions about what is going on in there' or branding. This runs contrary, in my view, to the spirit of the intentions of the people that developed this technology. There is a place for that but once that ball rolls too far it's difficult to pull back from merely consuming because the vital skills and information are lost to a lack of necessity.

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk." Thomas A. Edison

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

This comment made me think about my first 2d printer; a NEC dot matrix from sometime in the early 90's. Yeah, it worked, but it was expensive, slow, loud, jammed if you looked at it funny and really could only print numbers and letters onto very specific paper. I do miss tearing off those perforated edges, though. That really was satisfying.

I imagine that todays 'bench top' 3d printers are at about the same point in technological development as that pinwriter. If that holds true then twenty years from now you'll be able to buy a 3d printer in Walmart for $30.

It also means that the material refill cartridges will cost $45 :rolleyes: .

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I didn't! Thanks for the link z_beeblebrox.

Makes me wonder how many teams will go for the printer lottery, and even more specifically if you win the lottery, how likely you will get your "first choice" of printers. In my opinion the Replicator 2 is way more valuable than the Makergear M2 and slightly more than the Cube.
Also there are a TON of $100 vouchers available but how much can you get from each of these resources and on what timeline?

Agree with what was said that 3D printing is very time consuming and at times can be frustrating for new users. You can minimize cost of consumables (for example, no tape needed if you upgrade to a glass build plate) but the value is definitely there!

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Unless you intend to print ABS. The Replicator 2 is only designed and supported to print PLA. The Replicator 2X is only designed and supported to print ABS (even though it can print PLA you might have issues with MakerBot if you do that). The Makergear M2 can print both and it has a heated bed which you really want for ABS. You can always put it inside a cheap clear or translucent inverted storage box to trap the heat and increase the ambient temperature around the printer.

Also the MakerGear uses linear rails with ball bearing blocks as apposed to the bronze bushings used on the Replicators. Either work but the performance of the linear rails is better and achieve lower inertia (also generally decreased need for grease related maintenance). Up! printers also use linear rails and many of the Prusa reprap designs can be upgraded to linear round rod ball bearings.

The MakerBot Replicator 2 does have dual extruders. However I know that MakerGear M2 owners are considering solutions to that issue. I have yet to see the end result implemented.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

This is incorrect. The 2X will not have issues with PLA. It also will handle Nylon or PVA. It's explicitly supported by Makerbot (I called and asked them before I ordered mine).

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

That's interesting because that differs from a conference call myself and others had with MakerBot and specifically MakerBot support in relation to a MakerBot 2X. When we mentioned that someone was using it to print PLA they suggested it was ill suited for that because it tends to get too hot. The issue is that if you print PLA and have issues will Makerbot provide support and if something happens while printing PLA will Makerbot accept it under MakerCare in the event replacement parts are required (MakerCare is only parts replacement not a warranty).

Given the design of the 2x dual extruder I won't disagree that if the temperature control is maintained it can extrude PLA and others were doing it quite well, but I am only repeating what we were told at length by ranking MakerBot support themselves.

I can't speak to nylon never tried it in the Replicator 2X and I have no intention of trying given that conversation unless Makerbot sells that filament to me for that use. I'm sure their PVA works I've used that before on other Replicator 2 and 2X.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Seems to me that piece of information would be in the user manual… rather than troubleshooting steps for printing with PLA (http://downloads.makerbot.com/replic...Manual_Eng.pdf See page 97)

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Hi! I'm from FIRST team 3824, and we have been working with Oak Ridge National Laboratory for the past four years. Two years ago, we had the very first all-printed robot. Last year, we had a printed robot with carbon fiber. We definitely have benifitted from the use of 3D printing, and we are partnering with 3D Systems on the development of a new website for FIRST. It will have the ability to upload and download parts designed specifically for the kit of parts. This will enable us to help new teams take advantage of the technology and also share models.

Another use of these printers is fundraising. You can make and sell trinkets, keychains, cell phone covers, etc. to make money for your team. I believe this will be the most useful tool your team will ever have. You can make customized cell phone covers for a few dollars and sell them for $20 to $30! Last year we helped make Frisbees to give out at Nationals and the Smoky Mountain Regional (SMR). I'll start uploading pictures to get teams thinking.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

You would think right? The problem becomes when the directions do not match the message that support delivers and when the directions are inconsistent. I am merely repeating what we were told when we actually attempted to get support for the clogged extruder our printer was delivered with. I was not the only person on that call it was news to all of us as well.

We have a $500 MakerCare agreement at stake here so I intend to precisely follow the directions of the MakerBot support personnel, and only MakerBot support personnel who determine our eligibility (neither their sales or their manuals make support determinations). You have to go all the way through the support procedures they deem required before any replacements are made under MakerCare.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Well, the take away is that Makerbot needs to get their support folks in line with reality and their documentation - I've never heard of a single person having issues with PLA. It's easier to print than ABS since it warps less, doesn't need heated bed, and heats at a lower temperature. Yes, you will have to lower the temp you are printing at but that's it.

So for folks reading along - Makerbot 2x supports PLA just fine, there's some configuration changes but that's all.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

This is what we understand:

Teams can select one of three different types of printers: a 3D System Cube, a MakerBot Replicator 2, or a MakerGear kit. I believe there is going to be a total of 400 printers of which about 300 are Cubes, and the rest are MakerGears and MakerBots. The Cube is the closest to a turnkey system, and is the easiest to use. The MakerBot and the MakerGear have more options in terms of the printing capabilities, and therefore are a little bit more difficult to use, but have greater capability.

Teams will be able to select any of these three printers in FIRST Choice. I think the credits are high enough that if you get a printer, you don't get much else. Also, FIRST is providing the ability to use service bureaus for printing. You can use your credits to have these bureaus print parts out for you.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

I knew what I posted was going to spark controversy.
For the record, I own a Makerbot Replicator 2 (not the 2X, which is the dual extruder). The only difference between printing ABS and PLA is having a heated build platform, because ABS tends to warp when cooling. There are ways to get around this, especially with customized rafting.

With my Rep 2 I can and do print in PLA, ABS, Nylon, LAYWOOD, and basically anything 1.75mm I can get my hands on. It all works fine on mine regardless of what the printer was designed for (although sometimes special software configs are required).

Having said that, the Makergear requires full assembly and therefore a LOT more calibration. This all adds up to time, which is a precious resource FIRST teams dont have during the build season.

The problem with Cube is in its custom cartridges -- it ONLY accepts Cubify-sold disposable cartridges and the filamenet is triple or even quadruple the cost of filament you can find in spools online. Otherwise, the Cubify is an decent machine if its build plate weren't so small and its print speed werent so slow.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

Psst....I doubt Cube will like this but:
http://makergeeks.com/cu3dprfiad.html
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:76083

Also you can make a dual extruder MakerBot Replicator 2.
MakerBot doesn't offer it but it's out there:
http://support.makerbot.com/entries/...Replicator-2X-
http://imgur.com/gw5nHWR,7n29Skd,Iv7qj2l,ypfTCR9#2

Besides you can just a get a knock off with dual extruders:
http://www.makergeeks.com/d4prbot3dprd.html

Another difference between printing PLA and ABS is the temperature of the extruder nozzle.
Note the approximate temperatures for PLA and ABS are listed at the bottom of the last link above.
Also the tolerance of ABS is different. PLA prints tend to change dimension less as they cool.

I own the following 3D printers myself: Up!, a heavily modified SoliDoodle 3 and 7 Prusa printers
The modifications on my SoliDoodle 3: extruder, rear axis drive, SDP-SI cogs (some Fairloc), GT2 belts, VXB linear bearings
I really tore the SoliDoodle software apart to try and increase the quality of things like printed circles.
I am working on putting an all aluminum dual extruder on a Prusa frame (though it might end up a slightly wider Prusa frame).

I agree that during build season a new 3D printer build might not be wise to rely on especially if it's the only printer you have. Luckily most teams will participate in FIRST over years so what might take too long for this season (seeing as it's nearly December) might work out just fine for next year.

Re: FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery
 

We have used printers in past seasons to supplement complex parts that we need for our robot. He is right, setting up a printer takes time, and it also takes time to calibrate the settings to your needs. So, using these printers this year may only be a possibility if you have the extra time.