FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Frank Blogged:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...-Something-New

I'm excited that teams now have the options to take robots out of the bag for demonstration purposes.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Time to pull our GP out of these "Robot Displays."

What constitutes "practice?"
What if something broke on the robot that was working fine when it came out of the bag? Could we fix it then?

I just see a whole host of ways to abuse this. I hope those who use this clause will not only follow the letter of the rule, but the spirit of it as well.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

There is no instance of the term "Tom Baker" in the administrative manual. He came in as the museum curator at the end of the 50th Anniversary Dr. Who special.

Back Story, he was the 4th Doctor from Dr. Who.

Game hint anyone?

...I'll let this blow up somewhere before I post more of my thoughts.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Teams already had that option, now it's just more formalized.
In MAR the process involved contacting Ed Petrillo and asking permission.
We did it in 2012 and 1143 did it last year.

It's better to have it in the rule book like this so more teams know that it's available. It also seems like you don't need permission this year, which makes it somewhat easier.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

So, as a team that'll be competing under the District System for the first time...

What does your team usually do during the "Robot Access Periods?"

How do the rules for a "withholding allowance" relate to the rules for the "Robot Access Periods?" (i.e. Can you choose if you use your witholding allowance at the event or in one of your robot access periods?)

Do you build a practice robot anyway?

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

I like this addition. It allows us to show our robot off to companies and sponsors more closely to the time when we're demanding money and services from them. It allows us to demonstrate the sponsorship -> robot -> competition process.

I dislike the debate that's attached with this rule change. Hopefully FIRST clarifies in greater depth what "demonstration" is, so we don't have to suffer through another 1,000+ post thread. (cue 1,000+ post thread)

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

This is a worthwhile discussion, but I don't think it belongs in this thread.

These "Robot Displays" are not like "Robot Access Periods". No work is done on the robot and no drivers practice during one of these displays. They are completely different.


If you were going to cheat, why would you record it on your Robot Lock Up sheet as a "Robot Display"? Wouldn't you just keep it a secret? We already have to deal with teams following the spirit of the rules in the current system. The addition of "Robot Displays" changes nothing.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Dr. Who (I think relates to time travel), just like the incorrect date....
Does the game have to do with time?

Also, I'm a little confused with the access period too. From my reading, it looks like there's no mention of the withholding allowance, so is there a rule that we can open the bag, take the old robot out, and put a new one in, or taking out the old robot, removing 95% of the stuff on it, and replacing it with new stuff? Or will a later rule clarify that we can only change 30 lbs of robot?

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

I think people have a pretty narrow view of how cheating works. Very rarely is it a group of people going "yeah, we want an advantage, let's blatantly just break the rules!". It's people bending little things, overlooking small things. "Oh, we don't need to unbolt the CIM from that mechanism to make the withholding allowance, it's pointless if we're just going to put it back on". "You know, we machined these wheels in December, but why waste the time making new ones?" It's small decisions at the fringe of rules rationalized by individuals somehow.

It seems like it would be a lot easier for teams to rationalize giving their arm operator twenty minutes on the sticks at a demo now than before, no? Or giving the programmers time to debug and update the code - "yeah it's technically work but the robot has to look good for this demo, right?"

I'm not overly concerned, but it's more of a possibility now than before.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Seeing as their example of "not practice" is explicitly stated as having non-drive-team members drive, not really. But yes, I do see what you're saying.

Regarding the clue, I think a more rational guess is some sort of phone-booth-door type mechanism that has to be manipulated on the field.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

I understand the distinction between the brand-new "Robot Displays" that apply to all teams, and the "Robot Access Periods" that have existed in Districts since they began... I just wanted to talk about them since they're part of the 2014 Administrative Manual that was just provided. I'll start a new thread, since it probably merits its own anyway...

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Attachment 15482
Stop Build Day February 18, 2013
Was it another typo or a game hint?

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

I like the Dr. Who game hint idea... maybe the rules and game strategy will be so convoluted and confusing that we won't figure out what is going on until Championships?!?

As to interpretation of the new rules, they're pretty clear. You can unbag your robot for a short period of time so people can get a good LOOK at it. I like it, but they'll have to include a lot more zip-ties in the KoP.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

I feel like that is more then likely a typo. They probably just edit the prior years manual and forgot to update it.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Hmm, with all these time typos I feel this is appropriate:
"Tick tock, the map is a clock" haha

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

At the end it talks about Tom Baker. After seeing that, I did some research, it may mean nothing to you, and I might be wrong, but somewhere it said it was the 50th anniversary for Dr. Who. With the 2009 Lunacy being an anniversary and 2011 Logomotion both being anniversaries, Dr. Who could be quite a big game hint, or have something to do with it. Tom Baker was the 4th doctor in the late 70's, I'm not sure what all these typos (2013 instead of 2014 and 3013 instead of 2013), but with the reference to Tom Baker, it seems like something has to do with time, whether it just means the match is longer or shorter, or if there's something specific in Tom Bakers' episode of Dr. Who with him being a museum curator. Also, on wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Doctor_Who It talks in the end of the 2nd paragraph about Tom Baker, that they wanted to remind the people that he wasn't human.... and didn't have human characteristics.. Along with that, it also says Under the control of_____. I thought this was an interesting coincidence, probably doesn't mean anything though

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Let's try to keep the game hint discussion out of this thread, and in this one. I don't want any valuable discussion about the administrative manual to get lost in waves of game hint speculation.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

I like this change, especially as a rookie team but also in the rip-out-the-cRIO era. This ensures teams have a robot to show more or less year-round when it's needed. (I recall a time that Dean came to South Carolina for a fundraising dinner years ago. He spoke with teams in the afternoon probably a week after ship day. He asked "Where are the robots?!" and I replied "We shipped 'em all!")

Will some folks stretch it? Probably. Could they stretch it without this rule? Certainly.

But if an event is big enough to break the robot out of the bag, hopefully teams will be recording and photographing anyway. It's hard to say "Redateam totally had driver practice!" when the video from the school board meeting shows them teaching the superintendent how to drive it.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

First of all, I think that this is very cool. I'm always a little bummed that between build season and competition season seems to be the only time anyone ever hears about robotics, but coincidentally is the only time when they can't see the robot. I'm excited that we might be able to have a pre-competition demo at school or for our sponsors.

Second, as Chris pointed out, this opens up a lot of opportunity for cheating, especially inadvertent cheating. With Bag n' Tag, cutting the tag and taking the robot out is a very clear violation of the rules, and while it may be self-policed, it's very clear when its being violated. Allowing teams to unbag for demos within the rules brings in much more of a grey area. Is changing the bumpers working on the robot? Is plugging in the battery? Is plugging in unplugged motors? Is downloading code a violation? How about new code? It's not clear, and it's pretty easy to convince yourself that whatever you're doing with the time isn't cheating. This certainly should be covered in more detail in the Q and A.

One thing people haven't mentioned is that this could be one small step on the path to eliminating Bag n' Tag entirely.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

If you look up Philip Hinchcliffe's Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hinchcliffe ) his first work on Doctor Who was on a story called Robot, he also worked on The Ark in Space a year later. I find that very interesting, but I will let everyone else work it out.

Other notable works of his that caught my eye: Total Eclipse, Pyramids of Mars, and Target

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

The ARK in space - water game confirmed

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

You have to design you robot to look like a boat. Also, all field elements are regolith to simulate space.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

regolith??? Lunacy field :-)

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

People seem to be trying to look at ways teams can "bend" this "new" rule.

First, as Frank indicated, this isn't really a new rule... all you had to do in the past was contact FIRST and ask for an exemption. They'd send you an e-mail basically saying "Yes, you can unbag for such and such an event. Record it in your B&T form, lock it up at the end, and show this e-mail to your inspector." So this is nothing new, it just wasn't very widely known.

As for bending it... please, lets stop trying to lawyer things here. The intent is pretty clear. No working on the robot when demoing it. Yes, you can plug in batteries. Yes, you can attach your bumpers if you need to. I would even say you can download code, if it's needed for the demo (but specifically NOT to test new code). But if a "reasonably astute observer" looks at you and thinks you're working on the robot, then you're doing something wrong. When thinking of a reasonably astute observer, just imagine Big Al standing in the crowd, and only do what he would allow you to.

Trust me, all of you pointing out these "cheating" edge cases don't want FIRST releasing a version of the rules specific enough to satisfy you. Can you imagine how it would go? There's no possible way for them to come up with a comprehensive enough set of rules without causing issues for some teams. Imagine if they stated something like "You may not utilize any tools on the robot while it's unbagged". Well, what if you need to attach bumpers to avoid putting holes in the wall of your primary sponsor's main lounge? What if you have a clasp holding your battery in place that needs to be unbolted just to get a new battery in place? Just use some common sense, and worry about your team, not what other people may inadvertently do.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

Saturday was the 50th anniversary of Dr Who.

On that date, "Team Tardis" competed in the Bloomfield Bash FLL qualifying tournament.

Re: FRC Blog -2014 Administrative Manual Sections 1-5 and Something New
 

That's fine for bag and tag teams. We have to ship our robot the day the build season ends for it to get to our first regional event in time. We have to build a practice bot or we go without practice. We do display our prototype for fundraising, but I must say that the temptation to "cheat" is more likely driven by an act of disparation rather than a effort to do well in competition. We only have 6 weeks... and 6 weeks is not enough time. Never was. You know as well as I do that things happen in those last hours of assembly and testing. We've never put a finished product in the crate. It just seems like the bag and tagger's have an advantage over those who ship.