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-   -   Vex Versachassis (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123046)

cadandcookies 12-12-2013 17:15

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
I more see VersaChassis as a nice addition to a market filled with already excellent products. By no means to I think that teams that use VersaChassis are gaining any significant advantage over teams that use the kitbot, another COTS drive train assembly, or even build a custom drive train in a reasonable amount of time. The kitbot has only gotten better, and there will always be advantages to custom-designing a drive train that meets your exact needs. As Chris is Me said, it's all about tradeoffs, and I can bet there will be teams that don't use VersaChassis that beat teams that do.

As for price comparisons, with VexPro, basically any drive train is incredibly cheap. Using essentially the same drive train my team used last year, I'm calculating that it will be around $900 per drive train this year for my team. This is down from $1200 last year, which is incredible. It's possible as we optimize that it will get even cheaper.

Bottom line is, this is an excellent looking product, and I have no doubt that teams will put it to good use during 2014, but it is not the be-all end-all of COTS drive trains or drive trains in general. Seriously, people, calm yourselves down!

Also, note that the VersaChassis bearing blocks are currently listed as being available January 15th.

rwkling1 12-12-2013 17:16

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Another thing that I noticed is that the shipping for the 3 CIM gearbox, it says it will ship on the 15th of January.. that and another part.

ajlapp 12-12-2013 17:40

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
I think VersaChassis looks like a compelling addition to the COTS drivetrain market. Definitely a unique solution to the placement and management of wheels on a tube.

We've been providing COTS and custom chassis solutions to teams since 2008 and we've yet to work with a team that didn't truly appreciate the time and effort saved by not re-engineering a stick with wheels every season.

Interestingly, a lot of FRC teams have plenty of cash but are extra tight on time and know-how. COTS chassis systems fit this niche really well.

The price point for VersaChassis is amazing as well...though the source of these components likely isn't domestic, for what it's worth.

Hopefully our SimpleTube Chassis will be an equally compelling option for teams looking for a COTS solution in 2014.

Andrew Lawrence 12-12-2013 17:49

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1311361)
I beg to differ.

If anything, the new VEXPro line with respect to the chassis, helps even the playing field and skies the limit for teams with much less capabilities.
VEXPro has continued to listen to teams as Paul has stated and continue to meet the needs of the majority of those with less resources.

But does that truly put a veteran team with capabilities at a disadvantage?

I include veteran teams because of the time saved. You can assemble it in a few hours and never have to worry about your drivetrain again for the rest of the season. Even pro teams here in California spend a few days at minimum on their drivetrain for manufacturing, and that doesn't include maintenance throughout the season. I'd say a veteran team could definitely use the time gained to their advantage.

BurkeHalderman 12-12-2013 18:02

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ajlapp (Post 1311377)
Hopefully our SimpleTube Chassis will be an equally compelling option for teams looking for a COTS solution in 2014.

Is there an estimated cost yet for the SimpleTube Chassis we could use as a comparison to the multiple VersaChassis price options Nemo posted earlier? I know the page lists it as a custom order only but will it be available as a kit similiar to the kitbot, Vex Drive-in-a-day chassis, or VersaChassis? It looks like a great addition to the COTS drivetrain family, can't wait to learn more about it.

BrendanB 12-12-2013 18:42

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1311361)
I beg to differ.

If anything, the new VEXPro line with respect to the chassis, helps even the playing field and skies the limit for teams with much less capabilities.
VEXPro has continued to listen to teams as Paul has stated and continue to meet the needs of the majority of those with less resources.

But does that truly put a veteran team with capabilities at a disadvantage?

I agree with Glenn on this. The past two seasons of WCP and Vexpro products have brought us parts that many elite teams have been using for years but low resources teams just can't get. We used a lot of Vex parts last year. Some we loved, some we didn't but we were able to weigh our options among a larger pool of parts compared to previous seasons.

I too don't think it puts veteran teams at a disadvantage if they choose not to use the Versa Chassis or Vexpro parts. I wouldn't say finishing your drivebase a few days earlier is a game changer either. We finished both of our drivebases by the end of week two and received a parts from Vexpro and AM a few days before. Never had we finished the drivebase that quickly but it didn't change our season.

The best thing teams can do is comprehend their resources and what they can accomplish. This starts before the build season when you analyze your resources and again in week 1-2 when you see the game, prototype, and understand the best fit for your team in the game, not what the championship robot will be.

Using the Versa Chassis can help some teams (so will the Kitbot as it takes the same amount of time to build and many will have it day 1) but its just a stepping stone to success. Teams need to find what works for them and build upon it. For some it may probably be the Versa Chassis but for others it just might be the 2014 kitbot, or the 2013, or a custom welded tube frame, or their own WCD, or a swerve drive, or mecanums, or.....

The new products look amazing and I can't wait for 2014. Thanks to everyone who worked on them!

jsasaki 12-12-2013 18:56

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
I wouldn't say disadvantage
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence (Post 1311232)
In my humble opinion, the VersaChassis is going to revolutionize FRC. It's cheap, lightweight, reliable, and the best part, will save teams A BUNCH of time during the build season. I know RC and the crew behind this put a lot of thought into making it easy and quick to assemble, and because of this a single person can put it together in half a day, a small team of people could put one together in a few hours. I've spent a lot of my time researching powerful drivetrains the past 4 years, and I can honestly say this is up to par with every custom drive I've seen. So in summation, you get a powerful drivetrain that can compete at the level of the best drivetrains in California (because those are where the best drivetrains are from ;)), and you can save time during the build season by having it assembled extremely quickly. Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.


rwkling1 12-12-2013 19:01

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
I still have a question, is the system still a good buy when the gearboxes won't ship until the 15th of January? That's a week and a half after build season starts

Akash Rastogi 12-12-2013 19:09

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rwkling1 (Post 1311411)
I still have a question, is the system still a good buy when the gearboxes won't ship until the 15th of January? That's a week and a half after build season starts

That's really up to you to decide. You can wait and use CAD for anything else, or you can use one of the other COTS options, or obviously something custom. Both the VersaChassis and the Team221 drive look awesome. I'm excited to see what teams produce!

DampRobot 12-12-2013 19:15

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rwkling1 (Post 1311411)
I still have a question, is the system still a good buy when the gearboxes won't ship until the 15th of January? That's a week and a half after build season starts

I don't know about you, but that's pretty much exactly when I'm going to start ordering parts for my team.

One thing that I really like about the VersaChassis system is that you can build inventory and still maintain a lot of versatility. You can basically order parts for the drive, and decide while they're in the mail how you're going to configure your drive. Before, there were always some long lead AM, BB or SDPSI products that you needed to order early, and once you ordered them, you really couldn't change what type of drive you wanted. Now, you could probably change your drive multiple times per season, without reordering anything!

I'm also excited about the idea of being able to buy one of these systems and testing out manipulator prototypes on it really quickly. If you're in the one day shipping zone, you can buy most of these parts on kickoff day, then spend all of week one working with prototypes on an actual drive base (which very well could end up being your final one). A lot of the things people miss in prototyping are stuff like driver alignment or precision issues that suddenly becomes apparent when the mechanism is being driven around on a robot instead of by humans. Getting a DT really early could help with finding a lot of these types of errors early in prototyping, when you can still change it, rather when the actual robot comes together in week 6.

Anupam Goli 12-12-2013 19:26

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
My take on Versachassis and Versaframe:

At this point, our team is going to start transitioning towards more customizing in the future. However good of a transition to more customizable options(such as tubing and sheet metal) Versachassis and Versaframe are, it's still a large transition that relies a lot on experienced mentors who can think in the mindset, and we will need to build our CAD team and ensure they are able to handle the pressure they will be in.

Currently, our team uses 8020 for rapid iteration of prototypes and we keep those fine tuned components on top of an 8020 chassis that is designed around whatever driving constraints we set on the team. Yes, it would save us time in designing the drivetrain if we were to switch to versachassis, but in order to focus on manipulator prototyping, we use 8020. Having a uniform 8020 chassis and frame allows us to slide and test our prototypes in various positions and prototype more efficiently. In turn, our CAD team is not pressured as much to create exact components and prototypes can literally be stuck on top of the robot when we find them to be effective enough.

During the next offseason, we may purchase some Versaframe and VersaChassis components to play around with, but before we switch to a more customized option, we need to lay the foundations of iterative design and prototyping down and have the team be able to prototype effectively before we move on to fabricating custom parts and using something more custom such as VersaFrame. In order to ease the transition, our entire team needs to have this crucial prototyping knowledge and experience, have a solid CAD team that can handle the pressure, and our technical mentors need to be ready to make the transition in the academy of thought customizing brings to the table.

rwkling1 12-12-2013 19:36

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DampRobot (Post 1311426)
I don't know about you, but that's pretty much exactly when I'm going to start ordering parts for my team.

One thing that I really like about the VersaChassis system is that you can build inventory and still maintain a lot of versatility. You can basically order parts for the drive, and decide while they're in the mail how you're going to configure your drive. Before, there were always some long lead AM, BB or SDPSI products that you needed to order early, and once you ordered them, you really couldn't change what type of drive you wanted. Now, you could probably change your drive multiple times per season, without reordering anything!

I'm also excited about the idea of being able to buy one of these systems and testing out manipulator prototypes on it really quickly. If you're in the one day shipping zone, you can buy most of these parts on kickoff day, then spend all of week one working with prototypes on an actual drive base (which very well could end up being your final one). A lot of the things people miss in prototyping are stuff like driver alignment or precision issues that suddenly becomes apparent when the mechanism is being driven around on a robot instead of by humans. Getting a DT really early could help with finding a lot of these types of errors early in prototyping, when you can still change it, rather when the actual robot comes together in week 6.

That's a very good point. That is around the time that we'd be ordering gearboxes/parts for the game specific parts of the robot.

runneals 12-12-2013 22:57

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence (Post 1311232)
In my humble opinion, the VersaChassis is going to revolutionize FRC. It's cheap, lightweight, reliable, and the best part, will save teams A BUNCH of time during the build season. I know RC and the crew behind this put a lot of thought into making it easy and quick to assemble, and because of this a single person can put it together in half a day, a small team of people could put one together in a few hours. I've spent a lot of my time researching powerful drivetrains the past 4 years, and I can honestly say this is up to par with every custom drive I've seen. So in summation, you get a powerful drivetrain that can compete at the level of the best drivetrains in California (because those are where the best drivetrains are from ;)), and you can save time during the build season by having it assembled extremely quickly. Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.

We made and used a chassis related to the VersaChassis this past year (I'm kinda wondering if that's where some of the idea came from), and I'll just say I LOVED it. This is a great concept to allow you to modify your design as you build from a base chassis with or without a nice shop at your team's disposal. I've found it so valuable, that this is something that I'm bringing to the team I'm mentoring this year.

AdamHeard 13-12-2013 01:06

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by runneals (Post 1311550)
We made and used a chassis related to the VersaChassis this past year (I'm kinda wondering if that's where some of the idea came from), and I'll just say I LOVED it. This is a great concept to allow you to modify your design as you build from a base chassis with or without a nice shop at your team's disposal. I've found it so valuable, that this is something that I'm bringing to the team I'm mentoring this year.

The standard hole pattern idea has been around for years, we've done it forever and we stole it from 195 who was doing it back then.

It's awesome, it's so darn useful being to rivet/bolt on anything anywhere w/o drilling in place or custom layout.

Travis Schuh 13-12-2013 02:03

Re: Vex Versachassis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence (Post 1311385)
I include veteran teams because of the time saved. You can assemble it in a few hours and never have to worry about your drivetrain again for the rest of the season. Even pro teams here in California spend a few days at minimum on their drivetrain for manufacturing, and that doesn't include maintenance throughout the season. I'd say a veteran team could definitely use the time gained to their advantage.

The main disadvantage of using a COTS drivetrain as I see it for a vetran team is tying up so much of their BOM budget before they even get to the parts that score points. Given a pro team with machining resources, I still see a custom drive train being the way to go because of the oportunities it creates for spending money elsewhere, where the real design time savings are. It will save designers more time if they have the BOM room to use more versa planataries at $65 a pop instead of having to design custom gearboxes everywhere. The design time in a WCD is trivial for those who have done it before and the assembly time is going to be the same because they all have the same basic components to assemble.

-Travis


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