Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Exactly, in order to have a competitive defense bot this year, the drive train has to be fast, strong and agile. Drivers will have to be extremely good this year.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

What kind of things were you thinking about for the human player?
I'm curious! :D

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Where do you start at when programming?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Just to get things straight, how many balls per alliance are on the field at a time?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

during autonomous, up to 3. After the autonomous balls are put in goals (still unclear whether or not these would actually be SCORED), only 1 ball per alliance.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

first example in R8

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Just to jump on the speculation train... That Truss looks awfully sturdy. Anyone know if it could support 720 lbs?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

It's rated for 1726. There's another thread going on about that right now.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Yes. Number one sort is W-L-T (QS) though. Winning the match is more important than scoring assist points. As I've said elsewhere on here, when paired with capable teams that won't slow them down, the elites will do assists. When their 2 alliance partners assisting would result in less total points scored? They won't hesitate to go solo.

This is much like 1114s conscious decision to forego auto points in 2013 in favour of a 30pt climber.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I think you're forgetting a pretty important rule in the form of G4:
(emphasis mine on C)

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Chances are it was meant for the end game, but I'm guessing the GDC didn't want to bring back climbing/hanging 2 years in a row so they tossed it out. It does bother me though that they would spend the extra money for a truss that holds nearly a ton when they could have bought a much cheaper, much less sturdy truss.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I like this years game, but I wish there was an end game to it. All the games I've been apart of have had an endgame.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

The entire teleop is an end game as all your partners have to work together to get those extra points. Just like the bridge in the past. now it's the whole game, love it.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Exactly what I was thinking. I can't imagine why they would keep it around. Guess we'll find out!

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I don't quite understand the ranking system...

5.3.4 Qualification Seeding
All Teams participating in the Tournament are seeded during the Qualification MATCHES. If the number of Teams in attendance is 'n', they are seeded '1' through 'n', with '1' being the highest seeded Team and 'n' being the lowest seeded Team.
The FMS ranks all Teams in decreasing order, using the following sorting criteria:
Table 5-1: Qualification MATCH Ranking Criteria

1st order sort Qualification Score
2nd order sort Cumulative Sum of ASSIST Points
3rd order sort Cumulative Sum of AUTO points
4th order sort Cumulative sum of TRUSS and CATCH points
5th order sort Cumulative sum of TELEOP GOAL points and FOUL points
6th order sort Random sorting by the FMS

So... does "Second order sort" mean, if two teams have the same Qualification Score, or do they all contribute to your rank?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

If the first sort is tied, they go to the second. Etc.
But QP is tied a lot, since it is common for teams to have the same number of wins, etc.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I wouldn't assume that FIRST spend an inordinate amount of money on the truss materials.

The material looks identical to what the event staff put up for A/V equipment at every regional. I wouldn't be surprised if FIRST struck a good deal with Show Ready Events to rent them out for a season, or if FIRST actually owned some of the equipment already.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

You're correct that it is similar to that the event staff use. But there is a couple reasons they wouldn't use a rented one, the primary being that it will get damage from the robots, and a rental company wouldn't want that. We also have 4 districts this year, and they don't have production companies, so the truss is purchased and sent over by FIRST. Plus, I think that is reusable enough that there's no reason not to purchase it, they can have it for later.

Also, the manual specifically says what and where they got it:

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Ah ok.

Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

At the events, be sure to check out the pit display. It will show all the teams in rank order, and show you each of those items it uses for sorting (QP, Assist Points, etc) by team.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

3 assists+ over the truss + catch + high goal= 60
(30) (10) (10) (10)
atleast that is what I see as the most amount of points possible

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Thank you. Emphasizing this

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I'm just going to throw out an idea here: Maybe the community of FRC should come up with a standard retro-reflective target that can be placed on robots that intend to catch the ball. I don't see any rules against having retro-reflective tape on the robot, and I see no technical problems as long as it wouldn't confuse any targeting programs as to what a goal is and what a potential catching robot is. Something as simple as a vertical line of retro reflective tape would meet this requirement, as the only time a robot would confuse a goal and a robot is when it's tipped over and probably not going to shoot anyway.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

this game is called aerial assist... what's the aerial part? :yikes:

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

The "aerial" part is when the robots pass the ball through the air (e.g., over the truss).

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

The part where throwing the ball in the AIR is awarded extra points?

I don't know, call it a hunch.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I think it's when you throw the ball over the truss ; there, you get 10 bonus points (if you score, of course).

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

But it seems to me no focus was placed on this. It was mentioned once briefly and then never again.

Maybe it's called Aerial Assault simply because, technically, it is an aerial game seeing as balls will be airborne and it alliterates (is that a verb?) but that seems a bit sketchy to me.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I actually really like this game.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Aerial Assist combines the throwing and catching of balls with cooperative alliance play. During a match, you're going to see balls popping up over the truss and into the goals pretty frequently. It'll be the main focus for spectators.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Anybody got any good ideas for offensive strategies.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I feel like a lot of people are going to use strategies from 2008, except with an additional overpass at the end of the field.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

except with more passing

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Does anyone know or see in the manual anywhere that says specifically when the lights on the pedestal will turn on, allowing the ball to be taken from the pedestal and put into play? I see no indication of when this light comes on, only that the human player can only take the ball off the pedestal when it does light up.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I understand the assist part; that seems to be the main focus of the game and I think it's a good one. It teaches teams to work together and communicate, brings elite teams a bit lower because they now rely on their teammates who could potentially be rookies. But at the same time it doesn't seem that aerial. Yeah balls are flying into goals, but how is that different from Rebound Rumble, Ultimate Ascent, etc. At least those challenges has some exciting game elements; UA has super fast flying frisbees launching across the court,RR was super action packed as well. But the main focus of this game, the assists, seems pretty boring imo. Assuming the average team will push balls, we get to see a lot of bashing and not much else. Because this is a more defense-oriented game, it leaves a lot to be desired in the "thrill" department; if you don't understand the game/aren't on a team, it seems pretty boring.

just my two cents but this game is pretty vanilla

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

When the alliance's ball is scored, then the pedestal will light up and the next ball is available for play.

Source: Talking to Frank at the kickoff in Manchester. I am not in front of the manual at the moment, so please feel free to seek out a non-hearsay official answer.

It's just a fun, clever name. I think you might be taking it a little bit too seriously.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Straight from the source.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

How are shooting prototypes going? If Ri3D and our own experience is anything to go by, there are plenty of people struggling to get the ball to go very far.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I believe the prevailing strategy will be one that has a general lay out but has a million inner works. Lets say I'm on the blue alliance, I would score in auto then I would stay in the blue zone, one of my members would go to the white (someone that can catch) and then the last go to red. I would get the ball, shoot it over the truss to my partner in the white, and then play defense, then he will pass it to partner in red and play defense, then the cycle starts over. This could be adapted but basically if the ball is not in the area before yours, or in your area you would play defense. I don't believe the robot will be the complicated part of this game, its the team work.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Our shooter will most likely be a catapult with a hexagon at the end to hold the ball, since we want a long frame we will have our feeders on the side and they will pull it on the catapult, then the feed mech will stand up to aid in catching, I want to have bars around the catapult that also aid in catching. One thing to watch for in designing is that some teams (including my own) will have 6 motor drive trains, and if you have an extension that is rigid, it is very likely we will see some feeder shearing.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

there is the possible strategy of the midfield bot passing scoring bot then playing anti defense against any bots trying to interfere. I don't think it will be this organized though, it will be a big rush and coaches will have big role this year because the driver can't watch its alliance partners when it is defending? And what would be the strategy if say I am in the blue alliance and the my ball is in the red zone or white and my partners are trying to score and I have stopped the opponents ball and are playing good D on them and my alliance scores, would it be better to retrieve and assist? or continue to stop the ball?
These kinds of situations need to be thought out by drivers and discussed with alliance partners!

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I believe this will a super exciting game? The game is simple enough to were one bot can do it all, (except goalie), but it can't score high without assists? It means 3 decent bots can outscore one great bot. It will be a very complex simple game, allot of high speed collisions and driving, it will be so much more action packed than past games where each robot does their own thing and just score, this is a great game. just my opinion, no offense implied.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I'm not sure how people think its supposed to be 5 lbs. Our uninflated ball is 2.75ish and inflated its like 2.8ish. We weighed on our scale just to make sure.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

can we start out in autonomous with our parts extended past bumper frame because we are loaded with a ball?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Read the manual.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

According to G4B it sounds like a no.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I like it!
I like how FIRST is incorporating more and more of team work rather than three robots just having the same colour.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Another possible use of the height extension while in the goalie zone could be to actually launch the ball. Like this except with a smaller arm. Just because you are in the goalie zone doesn't necessarily mean you have to be on defense. You could use it for you scoring mechanism.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Except you're in the GOALIE ZONE at the wrong end of the FIELD.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Does anyone happen to know where the robots can start the match? Is there a line or something similar in the white zone they must start on, or do they start anywhere within the white zone? Same question applies to starting in the goalie zone.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

From what I've read you can go anywhere in white or your goalie. Anybody got and other strategies other than my zone one?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I think they might add one later?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I think the game sounds interesting. I read the manual, and I have one question. Can a "dead" robot possess a ball?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Andy Mark sells them! There is a link floating around here somewhere.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I feel like there might be teams that place a goalie in front of one robot to block them during auto. In response, the scoring team moves their robot out of the way. Then, the goalie gets moved back into the way, and so on.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Please make sure to read the rules :] G4 outlines this one pretty clearly.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

As the rules are currently written this is in fact an issue as a dead robot holding a ball would shut down their entire alliance. The official Q&A will answer this question so we'll be getting some clarification soon.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I think the max is 70. 10 for one assist, 10 over the truss, 10 for a catch, 30 for the third assist, and then 10 for scoring. Although it'll be uncommon thats what I think a perfect run could get you.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

You don't get 30 more points for the 3rd assist. Just 30 total assist points for 3 assists. That means 60 is the max. 10 truss pass, 10 catch, 10 high goal, 30 assist.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

By definition, yes. Although I'm begging for an amendment to that.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

This may have already been answered but does anyone know the mass of the ball? preferably in Kg?

also the I.D. and wall thickness of the latex surgical tubing in KOP?

Thanks

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

One thing that I think a lot of people are confusing is calling the game easy vs basic (or any other related synonyms). Easy implies that the game is not difficult, which is definitely false. It is still a challenge to pick up and launch such a large object with only 20" of space to work with outside the robot, so this year's game is definitely not easy nor should teams take it lightly. However, no FRC game is ever really easy. I don't necessarily think this game is as hard as past years but it is still a challenge and just because it might be a bit easier doesn't mean that it's worse in that sense. Furthermore, this game requires robots to cooperate with their alliance partners. This is the real strategic part of the game, using heavy defense while not neglecting your own ball/team. Assists, passing, all of these elements provide the challenge of the game that is hard to prepare for off-field. I think this game presents a new challenge; instead of figuring out clever ways for the robot to pick up/carry/launch game elements, it requires teams to be smart drivers. They need to be where they're needed when they're needed, and have to work with both their partners.

However, I think most of us can agree that this game is more basic. There's a whopping one field element that can be manipulated by robots and it's recycled from previous years, just smaller. The goals are pretty much the same as last year's. The only mystery is the truss, which nobody seems to know if it's cost effective or not, or if that's even a priority. The hot goal is new I guess, but provides only a five point difference and is pretty negligible if you ask me. Assisting is this year's real focus if you ask me, but let's be honest doesn't make for the most exciting game at a first glance. The balls don't accelerate to super high speeds, or go long distances when passing. Most passes will be rolled or lightly launched and the only thing that changes is what robot is possessing it. Now I understand that many people will argue that this is still exciting to watch, and I agree to an extent. This will be a fun game for FIRSTers (is that a thing?) to watch. People who understand the game, and know how hard it is to build a robot, can relate to all the different game strategies, etc. But to an outsider who hasn't gone through the struggle of actually having to play the game, it's a boring game. The shooting is cool, sure, and I guess the ball moves a lot, but it just pales in comparison to previous years. Ultimate Ascent comes to mind as a year that was thrilling to watch. Of course FIRST can't always make a more and more thrilling game every year, but this game just seems leaps and bounds behind.

Overall I don't think this game is a bad one, it's just more exciting "under the surface" when you get into strategy, defense, etc compared to the admittedly lackluster appeal to casual viewers. Until the game is played we really won't know how much better/worse it is than previous years.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I'm curious, if people wouldn't mind sharing, what type of drive trains are you looking at? I thought a 4 wheel tank drive (with wheels near the corners) would be good, but I've been told that turning with this system can really shake your robot's frame and wouldn't be a good idea, does that make sense?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

This game definitely reminds me of the kinds you might play as a kid in order to get everyone included. "You must pass the basketball to every player before you can shoot." I'm sure people have done things like this. While I'm all in favor of being inclusive and I know that's a good thing especially after last year's game was so difficult, it seems that this is, as you say, taking things a bit too far. While this does help the rookie teams to get to do something, the higher teams who have worked hard to become really good are hampered by the fact that they can't handle the whole thing if necessary. I foresee a lot of problems in the first few rounds of regionals if 2 bots are dead in one alliance.

Oh well, it should still be very fun an interesting.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I have seen several posts about ball weight. I know this matters, but we need to know the pressure inside the bladder so we can collect data on how much the ball will compress. The data in 2014 BALL Inflation and Maintenance Guide is not very exacting.
6. Inflate the BALL so that the zipper appears as in the “Properly Inflated” figure below. The BALL
on the left is under-inflated, while the BALL on the right is over-inflated. When properly inflated,
the zipper will be able to be pulled and closed, not too hard, not too easy.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

The ROBOT must satisfy the following size constraints:

the total length of the FRAME PERIMETER sides may not exceed 112 in. (see Figure 4-1 for examples),
a ROBOT may not extend more than 20 in. beyond the FRAME PERIMETER (see Figure 4-2 for examples) (see G24), and ...

Does everyone agree that this means 20 in. in multiple directions at the same time?? Looks like that to me. --- sorry if already discussed, searched and no find.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

It has already been answered somewhere but teams are getting between 2.5 and 2.75 lbs for an inflated ball. That works out to be roughly 1.1 to 1.2 kg.

I'm not sure what the specs are for the surgical tubing but I'm sure if you look at the KoP checklist and find what the type of surgical tubing it is then you can do some quick research on it.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I'm hoping I am terribly wrong, but it looks like this year will be even worse than 2012 when it comes to teams sabotaging alliance members to reduce their rankings. All you need is one team holding onto their ball after autonomous, and the whole alliance is relegated to a maximum of 50 points, even if the other two teams are the best teams in the world. If nothing is gained in auto but driving points, then the maximum becomes 30 points.

Of course, you could force the team to drop the ball, but things will still end up being a bit ugly.

Very un-GP? Yes, but what can you do at this moment without a rule change?

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

They define it vaguely because there is no definite psi that the balls are inflated to. They are filled by eye/feel of the event crew and field staff. You will experience variances during competition, and should plan for these variances. I would suggest using your own judgement; fill the ball to the point where it's somewhat difficult to close the zipper - this is your high end, then deflate to where it almost seems too loose - this would be your low end. Then expect to see anything in-between at competition.

You want specifics? Too bad. I became an expert trackball inflator at the Championship in 2008, and there is really no science to it. Basically, just going by the zipper.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

The truss is quite likely a COTs of its own in the entertainment industry. I'm not a roadie and I only play one on tournament days. These truss items are used to carry the lighting for a show up near the rafters and lower them to stage level so that things can be adjusted or fixed without extreme alpine skills involved.

Speculation about how sturdy they are for the job they're doing should die out once you realize that anything placed on the field is subject to climbing. I think the GDC and FIRST got a certifiable scare last year due to all that protoplasm crawling all over those skeletal pyramids. A rope? No way GDC wanted to see an FRC version of the Wallendas' act.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

The "higher" teams as you say may be too accustomed to handling the whole game. Fortunately, the highest teams already know that handling the "whole game" means being ready to descend into their alliance partners' pits and fix things so those guys can participate in the game too. I will be really surprised if there are fewer than five teams in each of our regional events that patrol the pits is search of teams to help play this game better. I hate the term coopertition, but great teams this year (and previously) will practice it fervently and the tournaments cannot help but be better for it.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Although it is bonus points instead of a hard requirement, I really like this comparison.

I'll admit that I really did not like the game when I first saw the animation; after reading the manual and letting it sink in a bit I think this will prove to have phenomenal game play, and quite possibly the best I've ever seen.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Oh man... I hadn't even considered this possibility.

I would agree that intentionally throwing matches is so far down the un-GP road that nobody should be considering it.

This game seems particularly vulnerable to a rogue alliance member trying to sabotage an elite's standing by throwing the match, though. Most games, if the elite team member is good enough, it doesn't much matter what any of the other 5 robots on the field do. This game, if a rogue alliance partner just bogarts the ball and refuses to score it, the elite team is left high and dry with no way to score points on their own.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

And yet it still happens. Despite it being poor sportsmanship some people decide it's worth the strategic advantage. I agree it shouldn't happen, but it does, and it will this season too.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

After a couple days I realized that this game most closely resembles volleyball. You aren't required to pass to your teammates but you gain an advantage when you do. A maximum of 3 players can gain possession- the last player is the one scoring. The truss is similar to the net in volleyball.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Yeah! That's why I think a net is a better option than a huge truss. It'd make the game a little more cohesive to watch and understand if there was a net. I guess you don't want robots getting tangled in it or ripping it though, so that makes sense.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Well, the Game Manual update on Jan. 7th cleared up... absolutely nothing.

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Seems to have been rectified (depending on who has to signal): http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=124428

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

I have a question regarding rule " 4.1.3 R3 Letter B) a robot may not extend more than 20in. beyond the FRAME PERIMETER( Fig. 4-2) " with this description and the diagram shown it appears that you can have multiple apendages extending from your bot in different directions, each extending 20in.. Is this a correct intrepretation?::rtm::

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Yes. See Q1 and Q11.

Re: Aerial Assist Discussion Thread
 

Thanks, That clears up my questions!