Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

And 4 mini-cims.

The motor budget this year is freaking opulent.

Any bets on seeing someone do a 6-cim, 2-minicim drive? Better start work on those 4-motor custom gearboxes. ;)

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Thatd eat batteries like a champ.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

The motor allowance this year is bananas.

6 CIMs, 4 mini-CIMs (or BAGs), 4 Banebots (RS775), and the myriad of gearmotors. WAY more power than I can realistically see an Aerial Assist robot needing.

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Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Fuel to the flames of conspiracy:

Code to unlock the rules was:
3 zones, 2 goals, 1 alliance

Might be looking to deep into things, but they suuure emphasized "collaboration" a lot.

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Based on this from 3.1.4

I believe that IF (and it is a big if) there was a change it would be between the regular season and championships. I agree with the many previous posts that disrupting the regular season is unlikely, but since the folks headed to championships should be "the best teams" they could handle changes to scoring mentioned in 3.1.4 and possibly an endgame. All they would need to do is amend R18 " At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 30 lbs to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. ..." to add an additional 30 lbs for a <new cool endgame>


I also agree that there is a shift in the emphasis of this game which I like. Less experienced teams can contribute considerable points by assisting and super-duper-awesome teams can't score 100 points by themselves.

There is also a change in the balance between robot design and actually playing the game. Referencing 2013 - you can't make a full court shooter that can also climb to the 3rd level of the pyramid and just win by yourself. You have to drive well and interact with teams you don't know in advance (maybe they're great at passing, maybe not). I feel this more closely mirrors real engineering tasks - you know some things in advance and can design to accommodate them (i.e. making a high goal scorer) and some things you have to be flexible with (i.e. counting on scoring a 3 ASSIST CYCLE every time depends heavily on your randomly assigned alliance partners). As a real world example - say you are drilling a long tunnel - you can only scan or core a small percentage of the mountain you want to tunnel through (i bet its expensive). You design a path and feed/speed rates for what you can see, but monitor and adjust based on how the tunneler is running, what rocks actually are coming out, etc.

(Note: I am not a tunnel engineer and am making an educated guess here about how it works)

Cool thread - The conspiracy theorists of CD continue to make me chuckle.

-matto-

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Something I just found:
[blue box below that]
It seems hard to accidentally entangle yourself in a field element, so they most likely wouldn't have included this if they weren't planning on some sort of endgame.

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If it's worth anything, my mentor (who's on JVN) instilled in me the only year I was a member in FRC (last year) was to build in modules/subsystems. I find this truly valuable if teams think there will be a "secret end game". If you build the thrower as a module(s)/subsystem(s), you can easily build another module(s)/subsystem(s) to accommodate the end game.

Robot design shouldn't be 100% around each of the mechanisms you build, but instead as a complete system.

Just some thoughts,
D

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I'm hearing lots of complaints that Ri3Ds reduced the "diversity" of robots last year, which I find unfathomable. At our regional we had the full gamut of tall shooters, small shooters, 10-30 point hangs, ground pickups, 30-point exclusive hangs, 30-pt hang and dumps, and defense only chassis bots. Only there were a lot less of the latter and more attempts at shooters that could probably work with a little more polish.

This is compared to 2012 where a rather lot our teams didn't even attempt shooters or ground pickups or anything. And many didn't even manage bridge flippers.

So if Ri3D means reducing "diversity" by reducing the number of teams that fail at everything but driving and increasing the number of teams that at least attempt an advanced subsystem like a shooter or manipulator... Well don't you think that might do a slightly better job of Inspiring students about Science and Technology? And you think the GDC is against this somehow?

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Strongly disagree.

Top teams will easily be able to score 25 points in auto (roughly comparable to the 25-30 of 2013).

Then they can take the ball, truss toss it, reacquire it themselves, and top goal it for a 20 point cycle, (in 2013, a successful 4 DISC volley was worth just 12 points). Balls will be easier to acquire than going to a loader station or floor loading DISCs was, and the field is wide open, so travel should be comparatively less impeded. Top teams pushed 5-7 cycles + a 10 pt hang in 2013.

Top teams in 2013 had OPRs around about 100pts. 5x12pt cycle=60+10 hang+30 auto=100.

Top teams in 2014 will be capable of 25auto + 6ish cycles of 20 = 150ish pts by themselves, with their two alliance partners just playing defence for them.

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Emphasis mine. Agree this seems odd, since we're expressly forbidden from:

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Another climbing endgame would be rather lame, though...

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Judging by the broadcast this year, I can say with some certainty that there will be an added endgame this year. When will it be introduced? That remains to be seen. But the truth of the matter is that this is one of the "worst games" FIRST has come up with in years. Many people keep comparing it to Overdrive, and rightfully so. They're both devoid of endgame (OD only had a bonus at the end for leaving the ball on top), although OD's robots were at least fast and exciting, mimicking a race track. What does AA have... oh yeah, passing some balls with little to no action outside of the obvious bashing-and-crashing. Plus AA uses recycled game elements from '08 and goals from '13. I might believe there's no secret endgame were there a reason for there not to be. But let's face it. Every year FIRST gets better at what it does, and there's no reason for them to produce something this shallow. Sure it's a fun and interesting game but it really pales in comparison to Ultimate Ascent.

There were some balance issues mentioned relating to Ri3D and pro teams far outscoring rookie teams, which explains the heavy focus on alliance cooperation this year. But there's nothing new. Nothing to make you say "wow, I sure remembered that year!" unless you're talking about how disappointing it was.

We all saw the broadcast. So many hints. "He thought.... He GOT..." and Woodie's comments about

• how they're always making things new and exciting
• how they're trying to make things like the real world (engineers always have shortened deadlines, wrenches thrown into their plans, etc etc)
• how they would literally be changing things between competitions

There's a chance they could add some other element to the game, but at this point it's just not up to the high standards FIRST has set (and met) for itself. More things to consider:

• Trusses are way more expensive than necessary; a simple flat barrier would do the job just fine
• What do the human players do again? Pick balls off the podium, pop 'em back into the field?
• Speaking of pedestals, why are they so unnecessarily fancy? A simple yes/no doesn't need lights, just waiting for the ball to hit the floor behind the drivers would also suffice

I understand if and why you believe there's "more depth to this game than you care to fathom" or some educated-sounding stuff like that, but the evidence is right there. This game is missing something, and has a lot of extra fluff. Something's coming.

(pardon me if I sound incredibly rude, it's 1:30 and I'm exhausted lol. good luck to all of the teams out there, we're gonna need it!)

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With three robots playing zone defense and passing when the ball is in another zone - do you really think six 20 points cycles is reasonable? I foresee a lot of pinning to prevent that (what else are the other bots doing?). Or at least interfering with the super bot when it tosses over the truss. Keep in mind that three passes and a high score is 40 points per cycle so you would only need 3 to outscore the scenario you described. Now the 2 defenders may have to help the 20 point cycling super bot allowing more 40 point passing based cycles.

I do think that the super bots will be able to score quite a bit and probably still win matches by themselves - I just think it will be less of a runaway.

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To fuel the fire,

I'd be more interested in a placement challenge for the end game, using the pedestals (which light up green like towers in 2011 and bridges in 2012 and are short enough that a sub 5' bot can reach them). The pedestals can be placed in each alliances scoring zone and double as a "safe spot" to shoot the ball from during the match (like the key or pyramid in years past).

I can also see no changes being made at all.

But I think there's a difference between changing existing challenges and adding new ones. Additions are fair, so long as a ball launcher still works for the game.

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I believe the logistical complexity of passing the ball between three robots and three zones (which means it will take considerably longer to do than a team 'going solo' as I described earlier), with the relatively weak position of MOST teams at the regional level means that it will be Championship Elimination rounds (or MSC) before we see some really stellar 3 assist runs from both alliances in a match.

I'm not saying it won't happen. Certainly, you'll see teams (especially those that share a practice facility) that are well practiced at assist manoevres in regional eliminations. 1114 + 2056 come quickly to mind as a pair that will likely be very good at it. But in qualifications, when they'll be paired up with comparatively weaker and slower partners? I'm betting you'll see more solo scorer 2 defender alliances than not.

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2005 was to get the entire alliance back to the home zone. Only problem was that it was the ENTIRE alliance for 10 points... which could be gotten more easily by making a row somewhere else on the field for 13 points. I don't remember a single case where the end game was awarded.

Easier than you might think. Maybe a goalie gets excited under the truss while on a harassment run to the other side, extends their pole and... Or runs into the small goal... Or... You get the picture. I've seen a lot of these games, and in most of them it's not hard to get snarled.

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My regional actually had mostly shooters, with a total of about 4 or 5 full climbers. Of the rest (which were mostly shooters with one or two defense bots) the majority used the same sort of shooter as Ri3D, leading to a large number of very similar robots. We still had a few of the tall shooters, and shooters with other designs, but they were few and far between. While I do not think that Ri3D is entirely a bad thing, as it can be useful for inspiration and some ideas, I do think that a few teams relied on Ri3D for ideas too much. Because of that, I can see FIRST deciding to retaliate with a random major change to the game after Ri3D finished. That said, I am still not completely sold on the idea that they will have some sort of trick up their sleeve to counteract Ri3D.

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Truth be told, I don't know if there is a true and sure counter to Ri3D. People are going to use that regardless, ranging from using it as a blueprint to inspiration. I think this is unavoidable. However, I do think switching it up could prevent teams from all looking the same. Assuming they add an endgame, and assuming it requires only additions as opposed to changes, then we can see some more variety. But I definitely believe there will be repeats, clones, etc, and that's pretty much unavoidable.

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I was just looking at the field diagrams (yes, at 12:45 am) to see if they had any thing that stood out in it's design and I found something that made NO SENSE whatsoever at all...

In doing the math, for a human player to retrieve a ball and put it in play, they would need to walk 50 feet to the 'trash can', then another 50 feet back to the field. I can't imagine this being done in a safe manner (watch out for those refs, photographers/media, cables, etc.)...

Likewise, this means that the field reset crew has to have several balls, as the distance between the goals and the balls is all across the field (I couldn't imagine them running back & forth in front of the crowd to deliver the balls to the other side.

Thoughts?

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2 AM here and i am loving the conspiracy theories. keep 'em coming, FIRSTers!

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

That's another thing that one of my teammates noticed but I didn't put much thought into. I assumed it was just an error or a misprint, but what if it's not? I mean, that's a pretty big error to make, placing the wrong color ball in both slots. At this point I feel like I'm grasping at thin air, but this is just another reason for me to be super suspicious.

I need sleep.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I almost just agreed, but I realized three things that will make sense of this: 1) alliances are scoring at the opposite end of the field that the drivers are driving from; 2) If the ball that was just scored goes to the pedestal behind the alliance wall that it was just scored through, putting the ball back in play here would be putting the ball back in play in the same zone to be able to score instantly again; and 3) There WILL be more than one ball outside of the field, so nobody will need to run back and forth. There would always be a ball ready to be picked up from the pedestal (I believe), and field staff would take the scored ball and return it to the opposite side in an orderly fashion. Taking these things into account, it makes sense that the balls are at the ends that they are: they are correct.

While I'm posting, I have a question to be raised that I haven't seen answered in the manual or anywhere else: When does the pedestal light up? Any references to that are obscure and nothing specific about when it actually lights up is said.

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I think staying up late has gotten to your head. ;) The human player in the alliance station puts the ball into play at his end of the field. The other stations are for the two other human players.

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I think this has some merit to it. I don't really understand why they would put a a huge truss in the middle if all you are doing is lobbing things over it. Why not just a bar? Or a net? why a huge big piece?

I'm hoping it's right, anyway, since this game seems pretty boring to me. basically no obstacles, 2 balls in play at a time, no end game, and a huge reliance on your team mates being able to do something. I feel like it isn't NEARLY as interesting nor exciting to build for as Ultimate Ascent or Rebound Rumble... Maybe they thought that the pyramid endgame was too difficult for rookie teams (which it was!) so they decided to dumb it down a bit to give everyone more of an equal chance?

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EDIT: I misunderstood what you were saying. I think you misunderstood what I was explaining, though. The original issue is about the pedestal colors being opposite of what would be intuitive, but it just seems that way because the alliance station colors are not clearly marked. The balls are actually in the correct place.

Scoring opposite of where the drivers are located:

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

You don't put into play the same balls that are scored - the field crew provides the balls, presumably from a stock.

Man, field reset is going to be fun this year... so will refereeing...

As for the Truss, why? Simple: They're cheap, they got/have a bunch from somewhere (haven't they been used in previous fields?), and it needs to be able to not collapse (dangerous!) if it gets hit by a ball launched at it.

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I understand that. What i was trying to say was that the ball that was scored needs to go to the opposite end of the field again before being put on the pedestal. A ball will already be on the pedestal when the ball in play was scored, so as for the human player running to the opposite side of the field to get the ball and back again (as runneals thought), that won't happen. The balls on the pedestals are on the correct side of the field to be put back into play.

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Really? Can you find a price for 25' of 12" truss? I'm not trying to be snarky or whatever, I just can't find a website that gives a definite price for a definite length.

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That's not the problem... It's just not having adequate sleep the past few days lol (dreaming of kickoff)! Thank goodness my team doesn't start build season until next Monday :) (lots of time to get sleep and collect our thoughts)

Anyway, I was looking further into the drawings, and noticed something... Why does the Team Truss (TE-14022) need to have the truss span supports if all it's doing is sitting there? Couldn't it be something they enclosed like their team truss supports? Also I'm wondering why they chose to have the sides enclosed and the top open (as far as the team truss supports go). Turning the design would support more weight if teams were hanging.

Also, I just noticed the text "If the string is GREEN, then the Head Referee has determined that the FIELD is safe for humans." Has this been in the book before? I wouldn't think that balls would be dangerous.

Better get to bed before I can get any more crazier :yikes: :ahh:

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Got a quote for the exact sections of truss used: $3200 from a large sound/lighting/stage dealer in SoCal. Global Truss brand (was the cheapest of the ones they offered). This is probably typical. This stuff is pro grade, built to last for years and hold tons of heavy, expensive sound and lighting gear, and isn't cheap.

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Ah, interesting. Now why would first use a field element that costs >$3k to act as nothing more than a barrier for robots to go under and balls to go over? :yikes:

Goodnight everyone, hope to see some crazy conspiracies when I wake up! :D

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It's curious. Occam's razor says it's probably for durability, appearance, and possible re-use in future fields.

Thought of buying the real stuff to do double duty as pit trussing but at that price, it's not worth it. Smaller trussing is more space and cost efficient.

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I may be half brain dead, but it looks like the human player area is down near the respective alliance's goal (so they still would have to walk that 100ft to/from if they wanted to use their human player area. *See figure 2-15

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There are 3 HP zones. 1 for the inbounder that is behind the driver's station and wraps around the side of the field and extends a short distance down the side of the field. There are also 2 HP zones on the side of the field at near your team's goals. No one can leave their zone once the match starts. So the in-bounder only has to walk about 15 feet from the pedestal to the location that they can in-bound the ball. Once they have in-bounded the ball they can return to the pedestal. Of course they could stay at the side of the field until the ball has left the first zone however there is a possibility that the ball could go out of bounds on the other side of the field so it is likely in their best interest to return to near the pedestal so they have an equal distance to either side of the field.

So the total distance the HP needs to walk is from the in-bound area to the pedestal and back, about 30' and only half of that needs to be done after the pedestal lights up.

With 3 balls per alliance, one in play on the field and two out of play there should rarely be a case where there should not be a problem of not having a ball on the pedestal when needed.

I do see a need for say 4 ball handlers and they could potentially walk a couple of miles over the length of the competition.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

we have a 4CIM 4Mini-CIM Drive. ;)

My opinion on truss strength / durability and people feeling it's unnecessary: I think people are overlooking the fact that there will be 3 pound balls shot at the truss at high velocity, multiple times per game. The GDC is probably just trying to insure the thing doesn't break or fall over when all those shots fail to clear the truss. A rope or simple bar wouldn't do it. Plus as some have pointed out it looks like standard lighting rigging that they have plenty of experience with and access to.

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Oh... There's a small possibility that the truss can fall on to robots... *multiple cringes and nightmares*

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I hope to god this is true, that would save an otherwise terrible game IMO. Especially considering how awesome Rebound Rumble and Ultimate Ascent were. When we've seen the game for the first time I've had the same thoughts as other people around here stated before:

• The lack of an endgame is weird.
• The game is incredibly underwhelming.
• It seems really hard to explain the game to an outsider.

And the fact there's a giant truss in the middle of the arena, only used as some sort of a height border to mark scores, doesn't do any better for the 3rd bullet up here.

Personally I'd love it if FIRST and the GDC tried to emulate a real-life situation where you as an engineer are forced to replan your design because of a new restriction or requirement. Then again, if I were a student in this situation, the reaction would have probably been a little different :P

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It looks to me that the human who inbounds the ball can do it anywhere. They throw it in from outside the human player zone in the game animation, and the manual doesn't say they have to. The two human players in the human player zone are for decoration, or for passing to.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Can a robot enter the goalie zone on the side they are scoring on?
also, can parts of the robot enter the low goal?:confused:

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

And the robots that were blocking, that didn't lower the extension(s).

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For questioning if the Truss is too expensive or over-engineered there is another thing to look at. If you are going to span the full distance of the field without sag, you have to use a truss design or a seriously heavy duty steel beam that would require machinery to set into place. An aluminum truss can be set by people and span the distance necessary without sag and provide the durability necessary for robots potentially running into it if they were oversized.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Also, the cost of one truss assembly made from COTs truss sections is probably way less than two custom fabricated pyramids.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This thread is an awesome stress reliever. Thanks for the chuckle :-)

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Also, Also, there are two options for the Team Element truss. Cheapest option is two strings strung between 2x4s. Which works fine for just making sure you clear it, but you couldn't hang a robot off it.

More expensive option is a truss-like construction of 1/2" plywood all around. Plywood for the sides of the truss and plywood strips for the "angles" of the truss. Which might, maybe, be stiff enough not to sag (much) across a field width span. But you sure aren't hanging any robots off it without turning it into splinters.

But if the GDC is willing to spring an entirely new game on us, they're probably more than willing to make teams waste $100 on wood for a useless game element.

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Agreed.

Honestly, the angriest I've felt towards the GDC was when, in 2012, we got to competition and discovered the mechanism we'd developed for pushing down the bridge we built to spec wouldn't even budge the actual bridges, which as you certainly recall, were so significantly heavier that they were entirely different.

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my 2¢ about the truss...

these are standard lighting/rigging trusses that I'm sure FIRST has plenty of easy access to (and they really aren't that expensive). The GDC is not only responsible for creating a game, but also making it look good, and ensure that it can stand up to the rigors of competition. Sure a rope or volleyball net would have done the job but 1)it'd look really cheesy, and 2) when one of these big balls hits it, it would give, lose slack, sag, and have to be re-tensioned between each match. The trusses simply look good, and won't ever change dimensions.::cool::

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A volleyball net would absorb the force of a ball perfectly fine...

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I strongl diagree with how you mentioned how a full-court shooter could not have a 30 point climber. If we fitted our robot with a more powerful shooter, we would have been able to do both: climb to the third rung and shoot full court. It all is based off how the team designs and prototypes the robot

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Did I miss something, or was there actually no release of the Encryption Code in the Kickoff Broadcast?

Did I miss something, or was there actually no close to the Kickoff Broadcast, in the form of a few "good luck teams" words from Dean, Woodie, and Don?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

You and/or your kickoff missed something (the end of the broadcast). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWb2...PZcMFF3#t=1722

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But it would be worse if a robot got entangled in it, which would likely tear the net. A truss, on the other hand, while still allowing the robot to get entangled, would not break.

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Just something else I found.
According to R18, you can carry 30lbs of robot parts not in the bag.
Hasn't it been 20lbs in previous years?
Maybe they expect us to need to bring more. :P

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

No, that is not correct. It's been 30 lbs.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Ah ok, wasn't sure.
Thanks for the clarification. :-)

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I feel the need to point out that thinking the GDC might add another game element is not akin to "conspiracy theory", as in Area 51 aliens, vaccinations=autism, and any of the twisty ways of discovering a Water Game. It is much more like adding bonds to your stock portfolio when Ben Bernanke hints that interest rates might be allowed to rise. If anyone is actually building for a game that doesn't exist based on hints that don't say much (if anything) about what that game might be, they are foolish. I don't think there is actually anyone doing that. What I think SHOULD be done is, plan for the game as it is now, and leave room in your thinking and designs for changes that might occur. Hedge your bets.

I think I'll leave this one alone for a while now. If I'm correct, and there is more to be revealed, well, we'll all see it sooner or later. If I'm wrong, then that's fine too, and no one will have to adjust. Either way, it doesn't make much difference to keep looking for more and more obscure (or nonexistent) clues, and keep debating points of conjecture. The idea is clearly out there now. Let's just wait and see what happens.

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While showing the animation last night to a casual observer of FIRST challenges, their initial reaction as the animation started was: "oh, is it volleyball this year?"

Volleyball also has assists. Imagine an endgame where extra points were awarded for each successive throw and catch over the truss during the last 15 seconds. Or even a bonus multiplier (1.1x, 1.2x, 1.3x) that increased for each successful volley as long as the ball never hit the floor.

It would not require any new ideas or designs that hadn't been considered or were already being created.

It would have a crowd pleasing excitement that would improve this game.

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Neat idea.

As of right now the rules state that therenis no "grabbing, grasping etc. With field elements" so I think that it is very wishful thinking that the rules will change within the six weeks ...that seems to be a huge change for a mid season rule change. But that is just me.. also historically looking back when gas FIRST ever changed the game that much.. usually they are small changes like last year they said there is no throwing white frisbees.. but all in all I suppose it is quite suspicious that there is a truss that can hold ~1800 pounds ...why woud it hold 1800 lbs. When 6 robots weigh about 900 lbs ..

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I believe that there is a pretty significant challenge, that would get you approximately the same amount of points as an end game would, that everyone is missing.

First off, it has been mentioned that the truss can support a lot of weight and they could have just used a rope. A rope or even a 30 foot long metal bar would end up sagging and robots would get caught in it, nevermind that it needs to support cycle lights and posts. It seems pretty easy to put together and transport given any situation and I feel it is a guarantee that a robot will not accidentally break the truss; last year some teams had some issues when the pyramid slightly lifted off the floor.

All this in mind, There is a huge, very challenging, yet very worth it part of the game that people aren't putting their full thought into, and that is passing and catching a ball over the truss. If two robots had the ability to pass and catch over the truss for EVERY cycle, and lets say that each cycle of pedestal->HP->robot zone 1 ->robot zone 2->robot zone 3 lasts about 30 seconds, that's around 4 cycles per match. If the ball goes over the truss, that's another 40 points. If the ball goes over the truss AND IS CAUGHT, that's 80 points, the equivalent of 2 3-assist cycles, and given this game, a proper "end game" score, if the game were to have one.

The pass-and-catch, I feel, is the equivalent of the end game that seems to be lacking from the game, and I think that a lot of people are underestimating how hard it will be to pass a ball from robot to robot, with little knowledge of how far/high alliance members throw their balls and how good they are at catching. As this game is centered around communication and cooperation between teams, I think this will require a ton of effort and communication between all alliance partners to make work, and a lot of testing and practice beforehand, as some people did for the double or triple balance in 2012. That is the spirit of this game, assisting one another, and so I don't believe there will be another catch (pun intended), but I do think passing and catching will be harder than we think.

That's why I think it would be a pretty idea good to coordinate with teams in your area to practice with each others robots during build season. This isn't about building one robot that can do everything anymore, teams will really need to cooperate and know how to work together more than ever.

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There is a BIG difference between static load bearing capacity and dynamic load bearing capacity. Typically you should double or triple the load bearing capacity for a dynamic load. FIRST Robots? Better believe they're a dynamic load.

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Looking at how they designed the team on (the truss supports going horizontal, instead of vertical or even just a 12x12 box) support your thought about the 3 pound balls... but wouldn't not making them go vertical just sag the wood?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

In regards to real-life situation where you are forced to replan your design...
This is certainly true for a software engineer, but is it true for a mechanical engineer? From what I've heard ME tend to design as simple as possible which means to avoid creating something that is expandable (e.g. modular) to be something else. This question is one I've been in conflict struggling with to understand... is it common for ME to have to change designs late in the design phase? or even during implementation?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I laugh as I read people calling this game boring, underwhelming, etc.
Its WAY too early to call that.

But yes I think this will be expanded upon. NOT with a hanging challenge.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Our team has been thinking of the ball like we thought of the frisbees last year. The game "objective" is to place the Frisbees in the goal, but really the game comes down to off the ball movement. Sure you could steal the ball, but in higher levels it is really coming down to off-ball movement as changing a 100% shooter to an 80% shooter when you are shooting 0% does no good.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I do agree that the spontaneous end game could be a factor, but there are a few problems with the idea.

1. I've heard people propose a lot about hanging from the truss, but why would FIRST do that? Everyone would copy winning designs from 2013, and add scores to each team? I may not get it.

2. Others have said things about balancing the balls on top of the truss. A 2008 FIRST Overdrive copy. Again, why? To copy designs and incorporate them into modular robots? Again, I may not get it.

Having said this, there are many ideas to support an "unanticipated" end game.

1. "The truss is unnecessarily robust." We may have to glide along the truss, hanging, from one end to the other, with the assistance of alliance members. The only problem: 2 alliances can do that at once :(

2. The poles that sense the ball flying through the infinite plane above the truss, but also keep the ball in play, maybe unnecessary, but an endgame: like the minibots from Logomotion, but that seems unlikely and again, useless.

I do enjoy ideas of different end games, so keep them coming! I hope they do introduce one, despite my negative points xD

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Blue robot gobbles up the ONLY red ball and holds it for the entire match. Not very exciting. That kind of defense just isn't allowable with the game as it's designed. Not if you want to watch something other than six robots playing keep-away.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I think we can all agree that last years endgame did not go as first planned. During the opening Kamen talks a lot about failure, and about how FRC is meant to be a place where we can experience healthy failure, and learn from it. What happened in 2013 was not failure, it could not fail for most teams as they did not even attempt more then one rung. Why not allow a second chance?

As regards to another possible endgame, our team discussed the idea of the return of the minibot, much like you mention. A member had the idea of teams needing to lift and attach a small robot to the beam. This small robot would have to detach and lodge itself, hanging off the beam. This would fulfill both the Ariel and Assist parts of the challenge. :deadhorse:

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Finally, a good use for that one :p

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Ways to score in Aerial Assist:
Goal Scoring (including all types of goals in all periods of the game)
Assists
Truss Throw
Catch
Fouls

Ways to score in Ultimate Ascent:
Goal Scoring (including all types of goals in all periods of the game)
Pyramid Climbing
Fouls

But I guess there will be a secret endgame because this game is so generic and it needs more scoring opportunities.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Either refer to him as Mr. Kamen or Dean Kamen. This isn't a newspaper article, nor have you mentioned him previously. Please have some respect for FIRST's founder.

It's AERIAL Assist. Seriously, people. It's not that hard to spell.

Also, after pages and pages of speculation, I still see no reason for the belief that FIRST would release such a large aspect of the game after kickoff. Why would they wait until teams have made their priority lists, designed their robots, and maybe even fabricated a good portion of them before adding something to the challenge? That'd just be cruel, and there's no precedent for it.

Why is this even worth so much time and thought? The truss works in the middle of the field because it's strong, will last through the season, and looks clean & nice. Accept it for what it is.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This thread is insane, like tinfoil hat crazy, but I don't think it would be cruel if they did (which they won't) add this. A team that is that on the ball to be fabricating this early is going to be able to adapt. For real life engineers, at least here in Israel, have the rug pulled out from them all the time. If FRC wants to be a microcosm of the industry, this is a necessary evil.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

With all these posts I have yet to see anyone address HOW the Truss is mounted to the floor. There is nothing that I can see in the drawings that will prevent the truss from tipping over if a robot hits it squarely. If robots attempt to hang from it, there could be a swinging motion, which could tip it over.
FIRST would not put anyone's safety at risk by not providing adequate structural side-to-side support if they intended robots to hang from the truss later down the line. Yes there will be a lot of speculation & a lot of hopeful thinking, but maybe we need to look it square in the face & take it at face value. A truss to toss the ball over & remind teams of the height limit.
If on the other hand I have become narrow-minded, then I will eat my words.

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Again, don't believe in this but...

That truss is super sturdy. The weight alone will make it hard to tip that thing. If the robots are not swing like monkeys, their weight might actually make it harder to tip. They should act like a pendulum if they are centered. It will take an act of G-d to tip that thing.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I believe that FIRST will have its minor changes throughout the build and competition season through the updates and they may even finally change the value of scoring at the Championship this year like they have held the right to the past three years. But I find it very hard to believe that they would ever change the game so drastically halfway through the build season. I know by that point most teams are working towards their final designs and are getting ready to debug and to have to totally change their robots would be insane.


Also the idea that one team could still dominate is really not the case this year. It is much more likely that three teams will be able to assist three times and score in the top goal for 40 points and do three cycles than one team doing six cycles for 20. Yes there will be cases in the early qualification rounds that one team could win it by themselves, but in eliminations and later weeks that will not be the case. It is very simple to pass and control the ball this year, all it requires is repeated contact with the ball and then something as simple as ramming the ball to an alliance member that could pick up and shoot.

This will become a very complex game with the strategies of passing, shooting and defending and I think it will start boring like most years do but will end up being one of the more exciting games in recent FIRST history.

And as for the name of the game it's Aerial Assist because of the passing and catching over the trust. Not some super secret endgame in my opinion.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

With a CG well above the floor... and the supports only 2' wide... I don't think it'll have to go far sideways. It's gotta go about 13" sideways... and once it does, don't get under it.


I predict that at some point during the competition season, a field fault will be declared when a robot carrying a ball inadvertently rams the truss and sends it over. The robot in question, sadly, may not survive.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Agreed. The game seems rather barren at first glance, but the sheer amount of strategy and cooperation between teams that is required will make it very interesting very fast. Also, the Aerial being the truss makes more sense than most theories about the name. As much as I do like the idea of FIRST throwing a wrench into the works to avoid people just copying Ri3D and make everyone be more creative, I doubt it will happen.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

First of all, I think this is a good game. Even though this is only my second year in FIRST, I have looked at many older games, and most are extremely supportive of "independent" robots, not really team players. The challenge this year makes the gap between "super-teams" and rookies much smaller IMO because robots will need to rely on each other. And even less sophisticated robots can compete.
An endgame might be added, but I think that it will have to do with cooperation.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I never once thought about that... since teams can build robots that are 5' and a ball is 2', if the ball is sticking up even ~3" you might have problems...

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

The good news is that the robots themselves should not be hitting it squarely. The bottom of the truss is 5' 2" above the ground (rule 2.2.5), and the maximum robot height is 5' (R3). Although the field staff are occasionally lenient about a few extra inches on robots in the early rounds, we just have to make sure this isn't the case this year.

I believe that the bigger danger is the balls. A robot carrying a ball could very conceivably hit the truss (and likely will).

For now, I'm going to wait and see how week 0 events turn out. I trust that the GDC did a good amount of throwing balls at the truss to see how sturdy it was, but week 0 will be the real test. If it becomes a danger, I also trust that FIRST will add additional support during week 1 events.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

For the truss, also keep in mind that if the baseplate is steel, it weighs around 300 pounds. My team's pit uses a similar truss system with 50 pound baseplates, and it's very difficult to move even though it's essentially an open-sided cube.

I haven't done any calculations for tipping point on the truss, but I'm willing to bet it's a beast to knock over, especially if those are steel baseplates.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Robots must pass inspection in order to play. Robot inspectors are responsible for insuring compliance with all robot rules. A 60.5" tall robot violates R3 and will not pass inspection.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I suspect he means they're lenient about size, weight, and all the other inspection requirements during the practice rounds, since robots don't have to pass inspection to play in practice matches. They can be banned from practice matches if the LRI, FTA, etc deem them unsafe, though. Which a 63" tall robot would probably be.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

There is no secret end game! There is no way the GDC would have teams work on a build a robot then make a major rule change like that. Some teams have robots thay are made of custom sheet metal and if they change it so that there is an end teams will most likely have to redo their entire robot. This means a lot of money is wasted because of something like this. Even teams that just use a standard build system would have to scrap what they have made. There will be no end game and there doesn't have to be the GDC does what they want and what is best for teams.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

More or less this. Both the inspectors and the field staff really want to see your robot compete on the field. Sometimes this means overlooking a minor rule violation (maybe one of the numbers on your bumpers fell off) on the condition that you fix it in the near future.

I've also seen plenty of instances in which a team adds something to their robot (such as a frisbee blocker in 2013) during qualifications, and the refs aren't entirely sure if it is within the height regulations or not. If it is not an egregious violation and either it is early enough in the competition or the field is running significantly behind, they might let it slide for a round.

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In this case, though - it's obvious that 'taller than 5 feet' isn't something to let slide. It's a significant part of even a preliminary inspection-- because otherwise they wouldn't fit on the field.

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Remember all the hate & consternation with a simple clarification of the robot size cylinder during climbing the pyramid last season? Clarifying what it meant to be on the bridge for balancing in rebound rumble? I expect the rules at kickoff will be the rules unless there is a glaring issue that needs to be corrected.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

My point exactly. As I mentioned in my first post, it is something that shouldn't (and won't) happen this year. I have 100% confidence in the field staff that I have worked with.

With regards to ri3d type mid level robots at every competition. It team went the same route last year (as rookies) and at championships quickly realized our mistake. :-) I think the trick for this year to throw over the truss, that should completely cut off the basic robots due to the bonus points.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

With all the people calling the game boring, easy, generic, etc., I look forward to all their teams fielding expertly driven robots that can throw, catch, floor-load, hit the goal, and play goalie, as well as have modular possession units (roller claws?) that they can slap onto any of their box-on-wheels qualification teammates in order to ensure a strong alliance in each match.

This game has one of the greatest opportunities for specialization to aid one's alliance in years. In 2011, the top teams laid tubes and then minibotted. In 2012, the top teams shot basketballs then bridged. In 2013, the top teams shot frisbees and then did a 1-level climb (with some exceptions)

This year, you can make a huge contribution to an alliance simply by being a really good catcher or a really good launcher. And since you can be a huge contributor by specializing, I hope we'll see lots of variety in robot designs.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I would hate to think that FIRST would do something like add something that drastic at the last possible minute and send thousands of high school students scrambling to make allowances for such a thing. Unfortunately, the more I read this thread, the more convinced I am.

The thing that has me most suspicious is the use of the truss. Money does not grow on trees, and FIRST would not spend that kind of money on a giant, 1726-pound lighting truss from which multiple fully-grown people can hang with no problem, only to use it as a glorified volleyball net.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This just got posted to /r/frc but was quickly deleted (by the mods I think). I think this endgame is becoming a Half Life 3 type of thing.


See the notes. :eek:

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Considering what the fields cost (hundreds of thousands of dollars), this not a surprise to me at all.

The fact that it's COTS is also nice, as they don't need to get some things designed and welded.

$3k per field is not bad compared to the cost of the above engineering and fabrication time. It's also nothing compared to the cost of the field.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This speculation is very interesting and it would add a great deal of excitement to the game its self. Right now to me the game seems somewhat boring and a blur to watch.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

That is a photoshopped version of the truss team drawing provided. The mod more than likely took it down due to it's "incorrect" information.

The actual note says "Glue, staple or screw where neccesary"

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

After watching the animation of the game again, it is illuminating to notice that the four human players stationed at the sides of the field serve no purpose at all, since the third human player of each alliance is the one who takes the ball from the pedestal and puts it into play (inbounding)! So there could very well be more to the game. The comment at rules G11 and G40 imply robot-human interaction of an unknown sort. Here's what they say:

Passing a BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER is within game play and not a violation of G11.
If not actively engaged with receiving or releasing a BALL, we strongly recommend that TEAMS stay fully behind the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER during the MATCH. (G40)

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What is "unknown" about that? The rules and game video both state that robots can pass and receive balls from the HPs.

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My major motivation for believing in any of these modified-game theories is that this happens in industry all the time, especially in software development. Programming for a company almost always requires you to be following a moving target, with features being added and removed faster than the programmers can even document them.