Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Compared to previous FRC games, there are a ton of defensive opportunities here. You know you can block your opponents' robots as much as you want, right?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I'd be careful with that though. Defending a robot possessing a ball could be an easy way to be ruled as possessing it yourself, if you make any sort of meaningful contact.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This.

If FIRST wanted a free-standing structure that can span approx 27' [1] without significant droop across the span, that is easily transportable, will withstand balls bouncing off of it, and should survive an occasional impact by a dysfunctional robot, a standard lighting truss is a quick and cost-effective solution.

Just because one could hang 800+ pounds from the center, doesn't mean one must. :)

-Karlis

[1] Yes, the field is 25' wide this year. Determining if they narrowed it slightly to simplify erecting the truss is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I agree that Aerial Assist DOES allow for much more physical defence than many recent FRC games, but its simply untrue that you can block your opponents "as much as you want".

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I was taking that rule as a given. It's been in FRC for a long time.

I would be surprised if there isn't something in the first Team Update addressing this "rumor".

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Let's see... We have

Herding or launching imply possession.

Bulldozing does not.

Now we may have possession by both robots.

Is it just me, or will all of the referees and drive team coaches be bald by the end of competition season, as everyone tries to understand what truly defines possession?

"Oh, no Mr. Official, Sir. We weren't trying to deflect our opponent's ball into the far corner of the field. We were driving around, and it just happened to bounce off of us."

-Karlis

( who believes that the GDC is waiting for a water game, to finally replace their FIRST dictionary with one from Merriam-Webster )

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

To add to this, to give you a rough idea on what a field costs, when loaning them for off-season events, teams have to take out insurance for up to $47,000, for the physical field itself. Throw in the electronics and you have to have coverage up to $173,000. :eek: Keep in mind that is just what FIRST would want covered if something happened. The actual prices could certainly be even more.

My point is this, while trusses from most of our perspectives are expensive, in the scheme of what the field costs, they are really a smaller addition.

Remember that most of these fields have to endure anywhere from 5 to 8 competitions during the season, and even longer for off-season events. Plus remember all the abuse they take from on the field action, set-up, take-down, and transport.

FIRST needs something strong that will withstand. By using trusses, they get that, while using a COTS item to save on costs. There's nothing more to the inclusion of them than that.

On a side note: (Something really not important but that has been bugging me)

People keep saying how FIRST has experiences with trusses from using them at regional events. The trusses you see at the regional events are typically owned by the production companies FIRST contracts for the events. It's the production crew that has to fly the trusses, and the curtains, lights, and speakers that hang off of them. That is not the responsibility of FIRST staff or volunteers.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

One thing I think is almost definite is that if there's an added end game, it won't be a hanging challenge. This wouldn't necessarily provide any benefits, seeing as this year's hang on the truss allows for only one level (even though most teams did only one level hang last year, there was at least the capacity to do three) and it was literally just done. I don't think FIRST would reuse the exact same objective as last year, so we are left to deduce that there's a good chance the end game will involve the human players at least a little bit. Maybe not to score like last year, but they can possibly grab more than one ball and place it on the field???? I really don't know, but the human players have almost no role and I feel like they will become at least a little more involved later on. Assuming something is added, of course.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Not seeing it on any of the logs/queues. PM me the link to the thread.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I browsed the subreddit through imgur (http://imgur.com/r/frc) as I was only looking for visual posts (searching for that offseason drivetrain posted a few days ago). Is there a way it can be in the imgur subreddit, but not the real one? I have a link but don't want the guy flamed, should I PM it to you?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

A general request to those who believe a secret endgame can/will happen is for you to kindly keep said speculation out of other threads. There's a chance that it won't happen, and no team should be planning for it to happen (in contrast to being ready for it). Also I think many people would appreciate it if mentioning it in general was kept to a bare minimum (preferably not at all) seeing as it isn't explicitly stated and I doubt everyone wants to keep debating it over and over when they've already formed their own opinions about it.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

There will NOT be a "secret endgame" or "endgame added in later." Of course, I'm not the GDC. But it's not gonna happen.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

If this is the case, then getting assists will be extremely easy.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Another scary thing to consider is the goalie zone is absolutely useless. To set up to block shots is not only impracticable with a six inch cylinder, its illegal. Its purposeful contact with an oponents ball :eek:

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Wow, you learn something new everyday! I never knew about that feature of imgur. Yes, please PM me the link.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I can't help but think that the name is the clue. What about this challenge, as it is, has to do with anything aerial?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

The balls. Being shot in the AIR. Aerial.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Aerial can also be in reference to the 6 inch extension that robots can have, which could be considered an antenna.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Though your idea is very valid, I doubt that FIRST would subject us to such torment by throwing new rules and requirements at us mid-season. I may be a rookie, but I've done my research on a lot of past competitions as well as looked through many old posts on this site. I've never heard of a surprise endgame that wasn't heavily hinted. Usually FIRST makes it quite obvious what our tasks must be, and don't like to throw in surprises, nor do they enjoy creating new rules. I have no worries about this game, but I would not discount it entirely. Keep the notion in the back of your heads, but I wouldn't rely on this rumor.

~Rose Emma, Mechanic, Rookie

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

It is a pretty small part of the game though... You don't even have the throw them in the air. Does have a small point.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Throwing balls can earn you an addition 29 points per run. And even more in autonomous. I'd say its a fairly decent part of the game.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

The truss is approximately 62" (give or take up to 5") above the floor. After you take into consideration the hight of your robot, it will most Lilly be mor than the 5 inch grace zone. So this would be very plausible.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Actually, it's not illegal at all. You are allowed to block the ball, as long as there is no POSSESSION of the opposing teams ball. My team actually looked this up in the rule book today. We assumed the same thing, but apparently this is a bit of a loophole. FIRST might edit the rules though, if their intentions don't coincide with this. But I doubt this will be changed. Otherwise, the goalie zone WOULD be useless. What point would there be if blocking balls was illegal? You might as well pin the robot so that it can't make the shot, but pinning is illegal too... it really sucks that we can't do battle-bots!! Ha ha! But anyways, I do think that FIRST will let this loophole slide. Otherwise defense would be almost non-existent.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

That's a 0.50" tolerance, not a 5" tolerance. (Or, as it could have been read, a 50" tolerance.)

Which, I might add, is pretty standard tolerance for large parts of an FRC field, which can be expected to vary by an inch or two over the full field.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I don't really see how this is a loophole. In blocking a ball, you in no way have control of it. You never possess the ball. Goalies are definitely legal, and teams will definitely use this strategy. Hands down.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I would still consider it to be a loophole because it is not directly stated in the rules, per-say, but is implied. It could be determined a few different ways, if read incorrectly.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

We had a huge argument about goalies and "launching/impelling in a desired direction". Our main conclusion was that it the rule was ludicrously vague.

-Obviously having a goalie blocker pre-deployed and the ball hitting it is fine, or else goalies, the goalie zone, and their extendable blockers are pointless
-But what if you have some sort of rotatable shaped blocker that directs the ball somewhere you'd like it to go? Is that launching and impelling in a desired direction?
-What if you time your blocker deployment so that it punched the ball upwards (maximizing air time), or so that your shaped blocker bounced it hard towards the other end of the arena? Is that launching and impelling in a desired direction?

I think (hope) there will be many, many rule updates attempting to clarify the possession rules.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

We're ready.

Endgame
 

It hasn't been revealed yet, but I want to know what this year's endgame is. Leave your thoughts here!

Re: Endgame
 

Who says there will be one?

Re: Endgame
 

There isn't one. Please speculate in the thread already chock-full of conspiracy theorists and dumb ideas.

Re: Endgame
 

Read the FRC Blog.
They rarely flat-out lie to us.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...ther-Fun-Stuff

Re: Endgame
 

I am going to trust Frank that he didn't lie to our faces in saying that there isn't an end game.

I think this thread should be locked.

Re: Endgame
 

BWAHAHAHHAHA.


That is all.

Re: Endgame
 

I appreciate Frank more than ever for nipping this speculation at the bud.

Re: Endgame
 

A very straightforward statement, clearly there shouldn't be any question now.

I stayed off this thread for a while, but now have a few things I'd like to share. It became clear to me that there was no hidden game this week. If there had been, I would have expected to see posts or hints from the GDC, and quite quickly; nothing. The kicker was the rules update that said a ball stuck on the truss could be dislodged by having a ref shake it. No way that truss was being used for anything else if it wasn't bolted to the floor! And how would they bolt it, anyway, given the nature of the venues?

Ah well. Occam wins! But people who took this seriously enough to be unkind to others who speculated differently than themselves, on either side of the debate, didn't win in my reckoning. Let's not turn CD into Facebook.

Re: Endgame
 

...too late....

Re: Endgame
 

:(

I have cat pictures for you, then...

Re: Endgame
 

Re: Endgame
 

Holy smokes, your name isn't actually Koko Ed. My life is a lie.

Re: Endgame
 

Mine too but I did it on purpose.:cool:

Re: Endgame
 

...but it was a close shave

Re: Endgame
 

:snort:

:D

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

maybe the secret end game is one of the hints, for example where does the glow in the dark tape measure fit in?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

No use speculating now, friend. Please do your research; you will find that the idea of a new game element has been DEFINITIVELY put down.

Moderators are welcome to close this thread, unless they feel there is more to gain from it being left open.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

FRC Lies once again about the endgame they cannot deny. I have clear mathematical proof of the secret end game. Check this:

The year is 2014

FRC is in cohorts to make an HL3 themed endgame this year. If we look into the second level of the original Half Life Blue Shift there is a scientist that looks a lot like Dean Kamen. I think that this endgame is the herald of the end of the world.


FRC is part of the endgame, the worlds endgame.

Hold on, I hear a knocking at my door. I will type the rest out when I come back, but I think they are onto me.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

You sir, have quite the imagination.....

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Your just one of those sheeple aren't you. Wake up and smell the numbers

Dean Kamen converted to Binary is:
01000100011001010110000101101110001000000100101101 1000010110110101100101011011100000110100001010

If we remove the 0's we get:
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111

That is like a gigilion zeros, so we have to add or subtract some. I don't really get this part but It is clear there is a link. Here is the proof



SEE. IT IS THE SAME PROOF. The feds are onto me, I might not be able to get on to show you the real players in the end times.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Has first ever actually intentionally changed the game in such a drastic way mid season?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

No. And Frank (FRC director) directly stated in his most recent blog post (here) that there won't be such a change.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I honestly think that its all because of those full-court shooters last year. Maybe this year is an "In your face" challenge, so to say, from FIRST. Also, you have to remember that next year, there is the new RoboRio that is comming out. Maybe this year was a filler year so they can test the new controller out. But personally, a secret end game would totally make the year :yikes:

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I know, I know, Frank said it wouldn't happen. But how do you explain the sudden appearance of this new game piece?



-dave



.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

So the reason the pedestals are green is because they represent the pigs and we have to knock them down with the angry birds ball! It all makes sense now!

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Dave, you're instigating again....

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

We have to knock down the truss with the ball! It all makes sense now!

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I've been so busy (well, who isnt?) that I missed the 1/10 blog that confirms NO endgame!
Then I read further down about the story behind having 4 team alliances for eliminations at CMP.
I am glad Frank reads CD!!!!!!!:)

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

C'mon Dave, we don't need to give the GDC even more crazy ideas... :rolleyes:

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

That's fantastic!

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

A Lavery--not going to guess which--with an airbrush... or maybe MissInformation up to some old tricks.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

First isn't technically buying these- they're being rented. Saves cost all around, and the technicians at most district tournaments are experienced playing around with that exact stuff.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

End part missed? :mad:



It seems very much.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Parts are recalled?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

If you really want to see a similar game, I would suggest looking up the 2008 game, Overdrive, as we (2987) found that it is quite similar to Aerial Assist. We have gotten some helpful tricks from game videos of Overdrive, as well as mixing our knowledge of Aerial Ascent last year.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Still not too late for FIRST to announce a secret end game!

Hear me, FIRST? IT'S NOT TOO LATE.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Maybe we should suggest some: land the ball on the truss - 50 pt bonus.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Last second game-winning truss shots worth 100 points.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

What's funny is that doesn't change the outcome of the match since its only game winning shots. :D

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Last 10 seconds hot goals.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Make a goal or truss in the last 10 seconds and get an amount of points based on your team number.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This one is interesting on the surface. May be right in line with a truss-shot bonus in the last 10 seconds.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Not specific to the end game, but for the Championships, truss catches should have their point value raised from 10 points to at least 20.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

20 is the max it can be changed to. That said, I expect catches to move up to 15 or 20, but would not be surprised if they stayed the same.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

It is the one scoring aspect that is totally out of line with risk to reward. However I don't know if it was intentional or not, like shooting into the pyramid goal last year or climbing up to the third rung in a time longer than 25-30 seconds.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

End game:

1) Get the other Alliance's ball and shoot it into your hot goal.
2) All the balls are put into play by the Field Personnel, and shots into the Hot Goal are worth x points.
3) One ball of a different color is put into play. The ball can only be bulldozed (can't load the ball into your bot). Score the ball in your low goal for 75 points.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Sorry if this was mentioned in the last 20 pages but. St Louis has a really big arch. Truss/arch? Arch/truss?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

You know... in pinball there was a multi-ball mode... that would be a cool ending... that would be easy to implement... say 2 or 3 balls to score per alliance in the last 15 seconds. :)

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Great idea! The refs seem to be standing pretty idle all match so maybe giving them 3 times the balls, possession, and scores to keep track of would help them stay busy :p

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

So, for the finals on the Einstein Field, the Truss is replaced by a replica of the St. Louis Arch.

Or,

During the last 30 seconds of a match, a replica of the St. Louis Arch is lowered onto the field. Bots are able to drive onto (and fall off of) the arch. X points for each bot that ends the match on the arch. Bonus points if you shoot a ball into a goal while on the arch.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

A white coopertition ball introduced for the last 30 seconds which gives all alliances on the field an additional 2 quality points if one colored alliance throws it over the truss and the other color catches it.

Before everyone piles on...I'm kidding...just trying to stir up the anti 2012 crowd!

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

294 has been practicing and getting ready for the end game.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Any robot that, in the last 5 seconds of the game, bounces the ball off the truss, catches it, and scores it in the high goal immediately wins Einstein.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how this pays off for them.


Not an end game but how about the catch gives you 10 points and a hot goal or something of the sort. Maybe 2x on the base score of the goal (without assists)?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

The end game should have been like the golden snitch in quidditch (sp?):
(1) Start with a yellow game piece sitting top center of the truss
(2) It may get knocked off during teleop, but cannot be "manipulated" by either team. Could be a penalty if "clearly" manipulated.
(3) At 20 seconds remaining in teleop, the snitch can be manipulated. Get points for passing if desired like regular game pieces. THEN 50 pts if scored high and 20 pts scored low.

OR
(1) Each alliance can introduce thier own snitch at 20 sec remaining.
(2) Passing points apply, scoring points apply
(3) Both snitches are available to both teams


The snitch option could have significantly changed the strategy as the end game approached. Seeing refs and human players occasionally getting whacked by the regular game pieces sure remind me of the bludgers (sp?).

One can dream. . . .

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

So I was at the Airport today during a layover on my way to St. Louis when I happened to chance on meeting one of the head refs also headed towards the game.

I related to him the entire controversy regarding the truss and simplified game and all the fun jazz and shenanigans that were listed above, and asked him what his take was on it.

His response?

"This year's game was designed by a different group of people than previously."

That's right. It was actually really interesting; a different group of FRC Staff did the game this year, which was why they reverted from sensor scoring back to ref scoring, and the game 'felt' different. It also explains the lack of an endgame.

As for the truss, he didn't offer a direct answer, but it seems to be that it was designed simply to resist hits as well as be sturdy. It was simply the best thing they had that was available and durable.

Nothing he said indicated the addition of an endgame, or even that an endgame was intended to begin with and later removed. It's just a different design of game made by a different group of designers, and there's nothing to fuss over.

I'll see all y'all in St. Louis tomorrow, and hopefully we can see some great games without climbing! ;)

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Well, I guess that's the reason why this year went the way it did. Can Frank make sure to get a lot of real FRC vets onto the GDC next year? You know, people that actually know what makes for a good/bad game?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

If this is true (I find it hard to believe that the group was entirely different, and that nothing was lost in translation between JLiang, this head ref, and whoever he talked to), I think that the "new" and "old" groups can both bring something to the table. Yes, this game has a couple of major flaws, but I don't think anyone can deny that there are other areas where it is strong.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

FWIW, I think that other than the problems with reffing and the pedestals this is the best FRC game of recent memory. It's certainly far more interesting than Ultimate Ascent or Rebound Rumble.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

And I would say that the major problem with the reffing was that the refs were understaffed and overworked--and everything was a judgment call.

Now if only there'd been 4-6 scorekeepers and 4-6 refs at each event...

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Apparently, that's just what they're doing this weekend. There'll be 10 refs for each field, with 8 of them active a game. Imo, this game as played at champs will be the best game in FRC history, even better than last year.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I should really learn to stop clicking on YT links on CD... :p

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Well, now that Champs is over, does that mean IRI is going to reveal the true secret end game to us all?

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Now that the season is over, I will interject here.

This isnt the original game that was intended.
If what you are saying is true about the scoring, I think this year above all others indicate that we need to change/improve it due to the hundreds of missed assist points that alliances did not earn.