Chief Delphi - The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

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Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

- Rumor Mill (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15)

- - The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124038)

alextound

04-01-2014 21:44

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

I love that this thread is here. . . and seems obvious, but there is no grappling rule, which is why I came to the site today. How are we supposed to pass the ball with nothing going beyond the outside of perimiter

DavisC

04-01-2014 21:46

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saberbot (Post 1320919)

These trusses are a very standard part that are mass produced and widely available. I've seen at least four of them at every single FRC event I have ever attended. They can easily be rented from production houses for an extensive period of time. They aren't going to break if anybody runs in to them, and they won't flex at all. FIRST didn't have to do any engineering or manufacturing (which in itself would probably be just as expensive as the truss) and don't have to worry about replacing broken parts.

I don't see any argument as to how the presence of the trusses proves that there will be an endgame that involves hanging.

Aren't they used for the support of the black curtain behind the FMS people?

Maybe with the expansion of districts, event dates are more spread out and the small venues can't handle such a large display, so therefore they probably had extras on hand.

MetalJacket

04-01-2014 21:47

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Quote:

Originally Posted by alextound (Post 1320940)

Two things - there is a grappling rule ...

Quote:

G10
The following actions are prohibited with regards to interaction with FIELD elements (excluding BALLS):

grabbing,
grasping
grappling
attaching to,
damaging,
becoming entangled

and you can go outside of your frame perimeter (20" in any direction) ...

Quote:

G24
A ROBOT’S horizontal dimensions may never exceed 20 in. beyond its FRAME PERIMETER

EDIT - If you were talking about going outside of the perimeter of the field, that is allowable too if you are passing to a human player

Steven Donow

04-01-2014 21:49

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1320943)

Aren't they used for the support of the black curtain behind the FMS people?

Yes, similar trusses are used. Go to any music event and you'll see similar structures.

AWB	04-01-2014 21:50

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

endgame: win

Darth Drew

04-01-2014 21:50

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

At first, the idea of a big rule change/addition in the middle of the season was intriguing to me and this game does seem different from recent years so I thought it might happen, but Kevin makes a good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1320891)

…I think you guys are misinterpreting that statement. Try understanding it like this: "launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes to all parts of the season from kickoff to championship"…

The kickoff was definitely different, this game is different from previous years (there isn't much one elite robot can do without help from teammates), and the championship is going to be different too (with the four team alliances and the submitting of a three team lineup card).

DavisC

04-01-2014 21:53

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Where I think this "secret" endgame lies, is within the Autonomous period.

I believe Triple Play had an endgame where players drove to the end of the field (extra points for getting onto another robot).

I think they added this to the autonomous as to try and encourage more programmers to have some kind of moving autonomous instead of 6 robots sitting there.
Also note they usually don't have this double option to score in Auto...

gabrielc1266

04-01-2014 21:53

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

In my opinion, I do believe that there is a secret end game. That has to do with the Truss, and Human players. Because going through the manual the only thing the human players do at this point is stand there, and if a ball goes out of bounds they get to put it back in, and human players have been a lot more involved in the past years. Especially during the end game. No changes to the robot, but a Not So-Secret Secret End-Game. (Just a thought)

Robby Unruh

04-01-2014 21:56

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalJacket (Post 1320944)

Two things - there is a grappling rule ...

and you can go outside of your frame perimeter (20" in any direction) ...

EDIT - If you were talking about going outside of the perimeter of the field, that is allowable too if you are passing to a human player

I saw someone mention this in another thread and have been frantically searching the manual since and can't find anything on it. Where's this rule at?

DavisC

04-01-2014 21:57

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robby Unruh (Post 1320965)

I saw someone mention this in another thread and have been frantically searching the manual since and can't find anything on it. Where's this rule at?

He quoted Rule G24.

Robby Unruh

04-01-2014 22:00

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1320967)

He quoted Rule G24.

I meant specifically the rule about the human player. G11 mentions it in passing.

Quote:

BALLS may not be intentionally or repeatedly ejected from gameplay.

Violation: FOUL per instance.

Passing a BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER is within gameplay and not considered a violation of G11.

but this is literally all I can find on the subject in the entire manual.

MetalJacket

04-01-2014 22:05

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Unfortunately right now the only mention of passing to human players is the fact that it is "within gameplay" I have no idea what exactly that means but would interpret it to mean that it is ok for me to drop a ball on the floor in front of my human player and have them pick it up (remember they can't touch a ball that is touching a robot)

mrnoble

04-01-2014 22:10

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

As I see it, here are the arguments for and against. I hope I'm doing everyone's statements justice.

Arguments for a secret end game:

-Woodie's statement in the video that they would change things up
-The lack of changes in the game as presented (rather the opposite; recycled and repackaged strategies and game pieces)
-An over-built volleyball net
-An expensive light toy to hold the next ball
-Both the light and (especially) the truss featured prominently in the video as teasers, and in the manual
-A useless but highly described "defense" strategy that no team will choose to focus on, but might be an excuse for a hanging appendage
-The disruptive presence of Ri3D projects, potentially leading to vanilla robots
-No end game currently
-Shorter game play

Arguments against a secret end game:

-Perhaps hidden depths to game play strategy that, without deeper understanding and practice, are not yet discernible to most teams
-The possibility that the truss was donated, borrowed, rented, or already part of FIRST's stock and therefore an easy choice for a field element
-The possibility that FIRST made last-minute changes to the game, or put in place a backup game
-The furor that a major gameplay change would cause among many (most) teams, especially veterans and teams with a quick design/manufacturing process
-The fact that FRC is, after all, made up of humans. They can't always hit a home run; in fact, they might just have made a less-than-exciting game (at least on the surface; see above)

I am inclined toward there being a hidden game. I think it will be revealed soon after Ri3D is complete; certainly no later than next Saturday. I would not be surprised if "assist" were to extend toward helping other teams with a multi-robot hang, perhaps off of a yet-to-be-revealed attachment to the truss.

Kevin Sevcik

04-01-2014 22:45

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalJacket (Post 1320978)

Rules:

Quote:

G21
ROBOTS may not extend outside the FIELD.

Violation: FOUL. If continuous or repeated violations, TECHNICAL FOUL. If contact with anything outside the FIELD, RED CARD and the ROBOT will be DISABLED.
G40
TEAMS may not extend any body part into the FIELD during the MATCH.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL.

If not actively engaged with receiving or releasing a BALL, we strongly recommend that TEAMS stay fully behind the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER during the MATCH.

G41
TEAMS may not contact any ROBOT or any BALL in contact with a ROBOT at any time during the MATCH.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

I didn't find any exceptions anywhere. I'm pretty sure that combination means your only option is to launch the ball at your human player. Preferably lightly. There might be further rule changes to simplify this, but that's how I read the current rules.

Kevin Sevcik

04-01-2014 22:50

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

To all those who believe there will be a secret endgame revealed in 3 days, 1 weeks, etc. I suggest that if you believe that's the case, don't do any serious designing, strategizing, or prototyping until the secret game is revealed, because it's just going to invalidate all that work you've just done.

What's that? Sitting on your hands for 3 days would be a serious disadvantage and would compromise your competitiveness? It'd be a large waste of your time? Huh.

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