The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Aerial Assist is one of the most technically boring challenges we have had so far, and with the smooth gradient of difficulty each year as the league matures. This simply does not make sense, it is clear there is something missing.
Our team first picked up on this during this video in which Woody says

"We are doing this a bit differently this year, making changes from kickoff to championships this year"

Now this would be normal, if it wasn't for this year being one of the most cookie cutter to date. No major shifts in origination, challenge, or league size. It is weird that this would be mentioned if there was not something further to back this up.

Our suspicion peaked further when we looked at the massive Truss eliminate. Keep in mind this has to bear no burden (as is), it serves the same purpose as rope would. However, this is not some weak little rope, at the Drexel Hill kickoff we had several people hanging off of it. The truss did not sag with three, healthy, adult males hanging off of it. Again, in the video we see an adult male sitting on it. According to this spec-sheat, this thing can support 1726 lbs.

We really knew we were onto something when we looked at the rules about the goalie. The Goalie has little or no purpose in this challenge, with the 6 inch limit playing defense is nearly useless. Along with articulating movement at the other teams shot being counted as a foul (I believe, as we are redirecting their ball). Why would they go into so much detail for such a little feature, that defeats the purpose of the task (no tri-assists with a goalie)?

We believe it is because we have not heard about the full game yet. The only real challenge thus far is team coordination, the rest is just reused code, and driver twitch skills. Now, think back to last years end game. We sucked at it collectively, what was meant to be a race to the top resulted in single level hangs for most of us. It was a collective disappointment (learning experience), and certainly not fun to watch.

Now, think about it. This truss can bear the weight of all six robots, is low enough that it can be grappled if the height limit was dropped, yet not high enough to be above most people for risk of dropping and injury, and is out of place in the easiest challenge thus far.

Removing the height limit during the endgame means that teams can grabble the truss and attempt to raise onto it. With all the talk of changes, it only seems fair to see a mid-season addition.

I, personally, think that we have not seen the last of the hanging endgame.

Team 4269 picked up on this as well. Wonder if it has anything to do with FIRST completely redesigning the 2013 game (Ultimate Ascent), and this was recycled from the original 2013 game. So to make up for lost time, FIRST threw out this generic game with the intention of adding something halfway through the build season.

Just a thought though...

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

If you notice 2014 is much the same as 2013, it just feels like a better edition of it. High scoring top values, lower scoring low ones, a climbing challenge, vertical elements that (attempted) stopped long throws. 2014 feels like it improved on all the aspects 2013 was missing, an achievable endgame, a real motivation for teamwork, and the end of full field launchers.

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Another point:
These lighting trusses can't possibly be very cheep; lots of welded aluminum cross bracing. Why would FIRST buy a bunch of these if they are only to be used for a 'volley ball net'.

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This seems highly possible to me. It would make sense of the pointless 6" cylinder that can extend upwards

Seems like a strong possibility to me too. During the kickoff I remember Dean talking about trying things over or having to redo certain parts of the robot. I can't remember exactly when. Or maybe my memory is just blurd from the big morning

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Much of our team has a similar opinion -- that Aerial Assist seems rather bland and marks a departure from the design elements of the games in the last few years:

• FIRST has been attempting to move to games that are easily accessible to an arbitrary audience -- like Rebound Rumble or Ultimate Ascent. This was in response to the inexplicable Logomotion where a person not in FIRST had a hard time understanding or getting excited about the game.
• FIRST has been moving towards more and more live scoring and penalties and it seems like a direct step back go back to referee scoring
• The last few games have seemed very well put together (Pyramid doubles as end game and lining up device, top of pyramid had climbing goals and shooting ones etc...) but this one has "missing pieces" -- There has to be another point to the truss and the goalie as the OP mentioned.
• Rules last year were very well written with few inconsistencies, this year we have quite a few weird things (what happens if a robot dies while holding the only ball? Not to mention the absolute mess that is the definition of possession that the poor referees have to call)
• Aerial assist does not do a good job of describing the game. What is the aerial part?
• The gamepieces are not very common or easy to get; they are also quite expensive.

Back at an FRC Live! I went to, Bill said the GDC keeps a game in backup in case they run into a major problem with the game they were planning to play (ie supply problems). I feel like this is a backup game from circa 2010/2011. They definitely had something more in mind with the truss but cut it for some reason; I assume it was the part that was supposed to be aerial -- maybe a skyhook reverse ascent (descent) from the truss to the ground to start the match.

Changing the game sure would be a game changer, by definition.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I would like to point out there is a rule stating that a robot cannot extend past 60 inches unless they are in the goalie zone. So I highly doubt that would be the case.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This is just to prevent a traveling goalie. If something so drastic as an added endgame was to happen, I am sure extending this rule to the endgame would be so stretch.


Our team holds a similar opinion, this game feels like a remittent of an earlier first. In a couple of ways, it even feels like an improvement of last years game, as I listed above. I wonder if the light up bins are part of the game we could have seen this year, they are odd to include, and expensive. For simply providing us with permission to grab the ball, they seem really complicated.

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Wow. That DOES seem to make a LOT of sense.

The 6" cylinder seems completely useless to me as a defence mechanism -- simply playing physical defence on the shooting robot seems much more effective, given the large width of the goal.

The truss is additionally way overbuilt for its stated purpose, and 2014 would be the first year since 2000, and possibly earlier (I was a rookie in 2003, and have only a loose grasp on the 2000-2002 games), for an FRC game to be without an endgame. That seems really unlikely.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

The point is that since adding a "secret" endgame would require changing the rules anyway, the GDC could change the 60 inch rule as well.

This screams crazy conspiracy theory to me. (Like many other Chief Delphi theories.)

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I'm currently on the road, but is there anything in the manual similar to the past two years that says FIRST can adjust points by X amount prior to Championship? This was in the manual for the last two years for endgames. I don't recall seeing it on my initial readthroughs.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

RTM:
::rtm::
G10 The following actions are prohibited with regards to interaction with FIELD elements (excluding BALLS):
A. grabbing,
B. grasping
C. grappling
D. attaching to,
E. damaging,
F. becoming entangled
Violation: FOUL. If the Head Referee determines that further damage is likely to occur, DISABLED. Corrective action (such as eliminating sharp edges, removing the damaging mechanism, and/or re-Inspection) may be required before the ROBOT will be allowed to compete in subsequent MATCHES.

They could add something but hanging from the truss...based on G10 I don't think so...

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

In my mind this may be what FIRST has come up with to throw a spanner in the works for the Ri3D and Build Blitz groups. I'm sure that someone at FIRST would have taken note of how similar many of the mid level robots were. Changing the game, while really sneaky, is probably one of the best ways to make things more interesting without doing anything to the build groups. You can still have the three day builds that teams can take as much as they want from, but when the "end game" is released, teams are on their own to come up with an effective mechanisim. Not to mention it will space out the team who engineer their robots more flexibly and can adapt and change mechansims easily.

I for one really hope that your prediction is real, just to see some of the crazy changes teams will make, and to see CD's reaction!

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Yes:

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They can adjust the rest of the scoring values instead. (Blue box below Table 3-2)

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

It's a blue box. They say they can change the scoring values by up to 10.

Also, in reference to Woody's comment, it may be worthwhile to go read through the Tournament Section this year. There are some changes to Championship Alliance Selection that I think is AWESOME. Fourth team part of the alliance. 3 Robot Lineup that is unchangeable unless there is a timeout. All 4 teams have a rep in the Driver Station

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

There are a lot of fluff points this year. The mobility points are a joke, along with the low goals being worth nearly nothing (without a combo-assist). There are a lot of balancing to do for this not to be a horrible challenge (all the same design, cookie cutter bots). Sadly, I think my tinfoil hat is the only one talking at this point.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

The game does feel incomplete, but I'm not sure FIRST would go so far as to add a whole new endgame. Also, I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out yet, but the team version drawings definitely aren't as strong as the actual game element. It can't be hanging because the team drawings use wooden planks for the bottom of the truss not aluminum tubing. Unless of course they decide to change the rules AND the team version drawings.

On a different note, it wouldn't be overly difficult for a 60" robot to pop a wheelie so that part of the robot is above the lower 62" part of the truss.

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Just gonna leave this here... :p



/Sarcasm

I think this might have been an end game that was cut last minute. I feel if the game was changed significantly from kick off that would set a bad precedent. Teams who work hard to get a design quickly would be punished. It would also change people's strategies and make the initial brainstorming worthless.

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The team drawings have in the past left out perfectly viable strategies available with the real field, or been such poor facsimiles that successful teams needed to build something closer to the real field.

See:

2010 Breakaway, Team drawings used 2x4 wood for the vertical supports of the tower. If you wanted to hang from that vertical member (a la 1114 and many others), you had to build something closer to the real field.

2012 Rebound Rumble, Team drawings of the bridge resulted in a bridge that was considerably lighter, and behaved totally differently to the real bridges.

2013 Ultimate Ascent, Team drawings of the pyramid were not really realistic, especially in the corner areas. Corner climbers would have had to build a mockup closer to the real pyramid.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

No.

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So, why can't the goalie be the first assist and then go back to goal tending?

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Perhaps they were donated. I remember seeing them around arenas in other areas a lot in recent years.

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It has to take down its arm, with the defense only robots of late, could take several tens of seconds. Then it has to be able to pass, which I am guessing many teams that use the defense bot as a training tool for younger members (Normal Team: Elders, Defense only: Freshmen learning shop skills) is not going to be able to do well. Having a dedicated goalie is a major detriment, rather you buy into this theory or not.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I suggest the posters saying that the game feels "incomplete" really sit down with their teams and imagine how the game will be played. There is a lot of underlying depth to this game that I feel some of the posters in this thread aren't really grasping.

I really doubt that an entire new challenge would be added to the game mid-season. Such a move would only tell teams not to trust the game rules in the future.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

So far I thought this thread was hilarious, until I realized these folks are serious...

I think what Big J just wrote should be re-read until it is understood.

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The ball is as big as the robot, +/- a few inches in one dimension or another. Adding a climbing element after week 1 (or even after 72 hours) would fundamentally change the design (and potentially the entire strategy) of any launching robot. This would essentially cut the build season short by 1 week and also potentially waste money on the teams who've actually put in much work in the first 72-168 hours of the build season. It would also reward teams who waited for 72 hours before putting in a lot of effort into breaking down the game & designing a robot.

I bet FIRST knows better than to pull shenanigans like that.

Until we see something official, this thread is really just some Nobody inciting speculation.

(edit - man, just a minute too late - durn you Sithbusters!)

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

As one of those posters, I do agree with you that this game has much more depth than we give it credit for. I think I understand some of the uses of the far HP's and the low goal.

That said, it just feels like a very 2011 game, not one that follows in the footsteps of the last few years. Maybe they are shaking things up intentionally. If so, I can't wait to see how this game develops!

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

While im not fully on board of the secret endgame. I dont think they would do this, but I will agree that the game is missing its special oomph. That both rebound rumble and ultimate ascent had. Maybe we over-speculated and are living in the past hype or maybe we are secretly correct and FIRST is holding back. The world may never know (unless they tell us)

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If you can drive, you can heard the ball into the next zone where it can be picked up by a alliance partner

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I really don't know what to think about this. I've seen that number somewhere before.....

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

At first, I dismissed this thread as some crazy theory that somebody came up with. The game this year seems a little boring. After two easy to explain, crowd pleasing exciting games, this one seems, well, a little dull. We thought the GDC learned their lesson with relying one alliance partners in 2012, and hard to explain games in 2011. Try explaining the assist system to an outsider, or how cycles work. If a robot e-stops, dies, breaks etc..., then no points for that alliance. To be the minimum competitive concept, you need to be able to pick up balls, drive, and put them in goals. The most competitive robot, will do the same three things.

My first explanation for the truss was that it originally held something, but for some reason, the GDC decided against this. Then, I watched the video. Even though I'm fairly certain that this is just me fantasizing about getting a different game (I don't like this one), Woodie's sentence struck me as being really weird during the kickoff, and there's no explanation. Usually, FIRST wants to spend as much time showing sponsors, scholarships, or inspiring speeches, and Woodie's sentence doesn't really mean anything besides for in this context.

Woodie says
"launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes throughout the season from kickoff to championship"

He's not talking about one (possible) change for just championships, he's talking about changes for ALL parts of the season.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I don't think it will be that easy. These balls are really light and slippery. I think even a slight tap(with a 150 pound robot), let alone "herding" (as defined in the rulebook) will send them off very unpredictably and fast.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

This kickoff was just plain weird. From the talk of failure, to the talk of changes, it just didn't feel normal. I am starting to not think that this will be an addition, however I am not thinking this was meant to be an addition. As others have mentioned the concept of backup games, this game feels like it comes from a first gone by. It will be interesting to see, if my crazy theory doesn't come true, how this will turn out.

We did do some testing with the balls on our 2013 robot. Those thinking they are going to control the ball by just hitting it with the bumpers are plain wrong. We have had the ball go under the wheel pinched and stuck, over the bumper, to the right and get pinched, to the left and pinched, off and up, and (surprisingly) forward. You are going to need a cow catcher to control this thing.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I think that this game is not so much about the technical challenge as it is about the strategy that will going into maximizing your efficiency. Personally, I see the 3 zones breaking down into 'jobs' that the robots are essentially assigned by virtue of position. I highly doubt that every robot will be able to do everything, so planning out the match in advance will be key. Of course, there are many different ways this could play out. FIRST only makes the rules, it's really us who decide how to play the game. I don't think Aerial Assist lacks challenge, it's just a different kind. Last year it was simpler as to what we had to do, the challenge was doing it. This year strikes me as the opposite.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Quoted for truth. If you think this year's game is simple or boring, you clearly haven't thought it through very well. Playing this game well is going to take flexible strategies and rapid tactics changes.

I'm guessing the people who think it's simple figure they'll grab a ball, pass a ball, ???, ???, their allies score, and start the cycle over. As with basketball, movement away from the ball is going to be critical for success here.

Also, given the outrage and ruckus that's come from MINOR ruling changes late in the season, does anyone really think the GDC is going to drop an entirely new endgame challenge on teams in the middle of build? Please give them a little more credit than that.

Finally, I think you guys are misinterpreting that statement. Try understanding it like this: "launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes to all parts of the season from kickoff to championship". That sense of the statement has the dual advantages of being true and also not insane.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

To add to the conspiracy, look at the bolts holding the "guides" onto the top of the truss in the video, there is 1-2" of thread exposed, very sloppy for a field element, seems like the guides were a last minute addition.

Having that much thread exposed is generally considered a safety hazard and the field elements are usually very refined

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

That makes a ton of sense, and I am doubting that my original theory has any validity. However, I don't get how they added anything this year at all. I have seen nothing particularly new, format wise, this year that would justify that statement

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These trusses are a very standard part that are mass produced and widely available. I've seen at least four of them at every single FRC event I have ever attended. They can easily be rented from production houses for an extensive period of time. They aren't going to break if anybody runs in to them, and they won't flex at all. FIRST didn't have to do any engineering or manufacturing (which in itself would probably be just as expensive as the truss) and don't have to worry about replacing broken parts.

I don't see any argument as to how the presence of the trusses proves that there will be an endgame that involves hanging.

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The major one I've seen is changing CMP alliance selections to the IRI model.

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This. FIRST would never introduce a surprise endgame. It's just not going to happen.

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The more I read topics like this, and some of the other general game discussion, the more I wonder whether people are even reading the rulebook before they post. I know this has always been a problem, but seriously... it seems like at least one in every 5 posts is someone seriously misunderstanding the rules.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

In my 18 years with a FIRST Team I always come away the first day with a thought...."What is the Smoke and Mirrors", "What is the real intent of the game" and most of all "First Game creators are really smart..... can the game be as it seems".

After a few days, weeks and even into the season the "Real" game emerges, teams re-design and re-adjust to the reality of how the game actually plays.

Yes, some games are better than others - this is the perception of each and every one of us and what we really expect to happen.

Look deep and hard at this game....was the Woodie comments "Smoke and Mirrors?

Great thread guys!

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I love that this thread is here. . . and seems obvious, but there is no grappling rule, which is why I came to the site today. How are we supposed to pass the ball with nothing going beyond the outside of perimiter

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Aren't they used for the support of the black curtain behind the FMS people?

Maybe with the expansion of districts, event dates are more spread out and the small venues can't handle such a large display, so therefore they probably had extras on hand.

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Two things - there is a grappling rule ...
and you can go outside of your frame perimeter (20" in any direction) ...
EDIT - If you were talking about going outside of the perimeter of the field, that is allowable too if you are passing to a human player

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Yes, similar trusses are used. Go to any music event and you'll see similar structures.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

endgame: win

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At first, the idea of a big rule change/addition in the middle of the season was intriguing to me and this game does seem different from recent years so I thought it might happen, but Kevin makes a good point.
The kickoff was definitely different, this game is different from previous years (there isn't much one elite robot can do without help from teammates), and the championship is going to be different too (with the four team alliances and the submitting of a three team lineup card).

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Where I think this "secret" endgame lies, is within the Autonomous period.

I believe Triple Play had an endgame where players drove to the end of the field (extra points for getting onto another robot).

I think they added this to the autonomous as to try and encourage more programmers to have some kind of moving autonomous instead of 6 robots sitting there.
Also note they usually don't have this double option to score in Auto...

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In my opinion, I do believe that there is a secret end game. That has to do with the Truss, and Human players. Because going through the manual the only thing the human players do at this point is stand there, and if a ball goes out of bounds they get to put it back in, and human players have been a lot more involved in the past years. Especially during the end game. No changes to the robot, but a Not So-Secret Secret End-Game. (Just a thought)

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I saw someone mention this in another thread and have been frantically searching the manual since and can't find anything on it. Where's this rule at?

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He quoted Rule G24.

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I meant specifically the rule about the human player. G11 mentions it in passing.

but this is literally all I can find on the subject in the entire manual.

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Unfortunately right now the only mention of passing to human players is the fact that it is "within gameplay" I have no idea what exactly that means but would interpret it to mean that it is ok for me to drop a ball on the floor in front of my human player and have them pick it up (remember they can't touch a ball that is touching a robot)

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As I see it, here are the arguments for and against. I hope I'm doing everyone's statements justice.

Arguments for a secret end game:

-Woodie's statement in the video that they would change things up
-The lack of changes in the game as presented (rather the opposite; recycled and repackaged strategies and game pieces)
-An over-built volleyball net
-An expensive light toy to hold the next ball
-Both the light and (especially) the truss featured prominently in the video as teasers, and in the manual
-A useless but highly described "defense" strategy that no team will choose to focus on, but might be an excuse for a hanging appendage
-The disruptive presence of Ri3D projects, potentially leading to vanilla robots
-No end game currently
-Shorter game play

Arguments against a secret end game:

-Perhaps hidden depths to game play strategy that, without deeper understanding and practice, are not yet discernible to most teams
-The possibility that the truss was donated, borrowed, rented, or already part of FIRST's stock and therefore an easy choice for a field element
-The possibility that FIRST made last-minute changes to the game, or put in place a backup game
-The furor that a major gameplay change would cause among many (most) teams, especially veterans and teams with a quick design/manufacturing process
-The fact that FRC is, after all, made up of humans. They can't always hit a home run; in fact, they might just have made a less-than-exciting game (at least on the surface; see above)


I am inclined toward there being a hidden game. I think it will be revealed soon after Ri3D is complete; certainly no later than next Saturday. I would not be surprised if "assist" were to extend toward helping other teams with a multi-robot hang, perhaps off of a yet-to-be-revealed attachment to the truss.

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Rules:
I didn't find any exceptions anywhere. I'm pretty sure that combination means your only option is to launch the ball at your human player. Preferably lightly. There might be further rule changes to simplify this, but that's how I read the current rules.

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To all those who believe there will be a secret endgame revealed in 3 days, 1 weeks, etc. I suggest that if you believe that's the case, don't do any serious designing, strategizing, or prototyping until the secret game is revealed, because it's just going to invalidate all that work you've just done.




What's that? Sitting on your hands for 3 days would be a serious disadvantage and would compromise your competitiveness? It'd be a large waste of your time? Huh.

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Very interesting thread, with great, thought out, points from both parties. i am personally thinking that they will add something new with the human players, as they aren't doing much during the game right now. or perhaps i'm not "appreciating the depth of the game"

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Or you could just hedge your bet and work anyway.

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I'll keep that in mind, Kevin.

Sarcasm aside, I really don't want to be either a conspiracy nut, or an advocate for a pet theory. We're all just making our best guesses, on every aspect of the game, every year, from pre-season hints clear up to week 1 of competition. We do our best, and sometimes what we predict turns out to be correct; other times, with hindsight, we see that we missed the mark. I do think that there are plenty of reasons to think that something might be up. There are also plenty of reasons to think that it's all just our overactive imaginations.

As things develop, I will continue to plan and work with my team, and we will strategize with the information and expertise we have, and we will absorb new information as it presents itself.

“If the Day of Judgment erupts while you are planting a new tree, carry on and plant it.”, the Prophet said.

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I'm having a really hard time with the way that Aerial Assist seems like such a step backward from the leaps and bounds made toward simplicity of explaining the game to casual observers in a handful of seconds in 2012 and 2013.

2011: Convoluted scoring system with multipliers and logo bonuses that is hard to explain

2012: Its robot basketball, and they get points for balancing the bridge at the end of the game, more robots, more points.

2013: Throw frisbees into goals for points, hang from pyramid for more points at the end. Climb higher, get more points.

2014: Throw balls into goals, but you get more points along a non-linear scale for more robots touching it, plus theres this truss you can throw it over, and you get more points for catching it out of the air.

ADDITIONALLY

Aerial Assist is going to have difficulty being scored consistently. The only way to score Aerial Assist is to have refs being VERY careful to watch who touches what balls where, how they caught them out of the air, and what goals they've been fired through.

In the last several years, FIRST has being trying really hard to make games that can be scored automatically by means of sensors on the field, because realtime scoring on the videoboard near the field is important to helping casual observers follow the action.

I'm just seeing this as a big step backwards from the "New FIRST" we've seen in 2012 and 2013.

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This is probably the biggest thing that gives me hope for this theory. With all the awesome vex versa gear and the multiple Ri3D teams I am kinda... disappointed.

There isn't a whole lot of incentive anymore to design your own system when something (better) is readily available and good to go. Even if a team came up with a design themselves the Ri3D teams are holding a precedent that is hard to ignore and hard not to follow (or at least use as a starting point).

Either way I'm excited to see how Aerial Assist plays out.

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I'd argue the system was not convoluted. (3 points, 2 points, or 1 point depending on height, double points of a tube for being over a yellow tube, double points for a complete row.)

There are 5 refs and only at most 2 balls to keep track of. It's not as hard as it sounds.

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Did you ever try to explain that scoring system (and why teams always went for the high pegs first), plus the minibot race, to a casual observer in 10 seconds or less?
I'm not saying they can't do it, but having experienced every FIRST game since 2003 first hand (except 2005), games heavily dependent on the refs for scoring tend to have a lot of issues related to human error.

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I'd personally highly doubt any major changes to occur. There was an explosion on CD and throughout FIRST last year when they changed the "blizzard of frisbees" at the last thirty seconds. Now imagine if they changed something that didn't just slightly affect some teams in a negative way (ground pickup robots were rightfully frustrated), but something that changed what everyone had been planning all throughout build season.

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I don't think this game is too tough to describe to a "casual" observer.

Sure, it's not a short sentence like 2012 and 2013, but I think it's clear enough to get the general idea across.

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This is completely and utterly false. I suggest you go look at some match videos from 2008, where the balls were quite a bit bigger than these.

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Don't know if this has been mentioned, but we just started watching the kickoff video again.

It starts with:
"They thought X, they got Y" themes with previous inventions.

Game hint:
"Sorry, we made a mistake. These numbers give the same result but look different and are formatted differently"

Maybe, a completely different challenge, solvable by the same robot.

Food for thought.

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Can someone explain to me the word AERIAL in the game name please? Yeah you throw a ball, but game pieces have been 8' in the air for years now.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

It starts with 'A' and they wanted to be alliterative, I guess.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I also disagree with this statement. There are a huge number of ways to make a robot that can extend up to 20" outside it's perimeter pick up, pass, catch, hold, and shoot a relatively small and light ball like the one we have. Video of past games (especially 2008, as was previously mentioned) will be extremely enlightening, and hopefully motivating.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Or there's a climbing based end-game using the seemingly over-built truss that they plan to release after Ri3D's have done their thing but early enough in build to not screw people up too bad.

FIRST knew (at least as early as a few weeks ago) that there were going to be first 1, then 3, then 5, then 6 Ri3Ds this year. They saw the effect just one had in 2013. It significantly raised the floor of the competition, but it caused a fair bit of limiting to the diversity of designs. Having 6 Ri3Ds in 2014, we're going to have 6 good examples, made by teams of people with several world championships and countless regional wins under their collective belts. Those 6 robots will likely show us most of the major design themes 2014 robots will have. I can see how the GDC would see that as a negative thing, and try to do something about it.

Doing something like a surprise game element released AFTER the Ri3Ds are done would be a way to restore some of that unique design challenge without diminishing the beneficial effects that the Ri3Ds have.

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It just seems incredibly strange that half the game name is a complete lie

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Maybe the secret post-Ri3D twist is that your robot has to be a helicopter. :P

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

"Yeah, it'll completely change game strategies and add a whole new system to design, but it won't be THAT bad. It's not like anyone will be done with their strategy rundown and robot capabilities requirements by then, right? It'll be exciting for them to have to do that all over again after we change the game on them!"

Honestly, I think everyone in this thread should back away from the caffeine, get some sleep, and ask themselves tomorrow if they really think the above is something the GDC would actually say.

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THIS!! I am more inclined to believe this then a change to the current game that would require new mechanisms.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

You could say a lot of the names are lies though... I mean rebound rumble didn't really have a lot of rebounding or surprise earthquakes. And breakaway means nothing ( to my knowledge ) so I think the same is just catchy.

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Last point then I'm out of this for good. Say the GDC releases a brand new endgame after all the Ri3Ds are done. What exactly do you think is going to happen then? You think ALL the Ri3D teams are going to throw up their hands and say "You think we're going to spend any MORE days showing people how to meet this new challenge?". Nope, you're just going to get bonus material as several of the Ri3D teams go back for seconds. It's not like they're contractually limited to only 3 days of posting youtube videos or something.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

I always thought the rebound was a basketball doing a rebound(didn't happen but fit the theme), the rumble was the movement of the bridge. Breakaway fits soccer in the same way that rebound fit basketball- it's a term from the sport but not in the FRC game really.

There is no sport to pull aerial from and doesn't really seem to be a major part of the game.

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If you asked the GDC two years ago if they thought someone could design and build robots to play their games effectively in 72 hours, they'd have probably told you that you were crazy.

I think you're being seriously naive if you don't think the GDC would do something to combat the effect that Ri3D's have on the robots we see at competition.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't necessarily think this will happen. I think its a significant possibility. There have been enough clues, things that seem just a little out of place. Maybe the changing game hint was intentional. That truss is way stronger than it needs to be for its stated purpose. "Aerial" Assist having essentially no "Aerial" component. The first FIRST game in 14+ years to be devoid of an endgame. Aerial Assist as is, the minimum competitive robot, and the elite competitive robot are very similar in design.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

At first I was thinking this was just a conspiracy theory cooked up by those veterans who were disappointed that the game was forcing them to collaborate with other teams.

However.... the more I read the other comments, the more I'm open to the possibility that FRC could change things up mid-build season. The one factor that gives me pause is the proliferation of the Ri3Ds this year. If FIRST is looking to force more innovative approaches, introducing an end-game mid-way would be a way to do that.

One other point that hasn't been mentioned yet is that changing requirements mid-stream is extremely common in the real-world. It is pretty much how most of the software projects I've worked on pan out. It is very good skill to learn how to adapt and improvise. Frustrating -- you bet. But it can also be extremely rewarding when the team pulls it together at the last minute.

ant

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Or they may not change the game up enough to actually require a large change of the robot. The game is so generic this year that you are almost required to build a robot that is a jack of all trades. That would allow GDC to change most game rules without severely punishing teams. That all ties back to the build for one thing, get another that ad talked about. We are building for one game, but are forced to build in such a generic way that it will work for the real game revealed later.

Just a thought

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Not if they, like a significant portion of the FRC community, view that effect as one of the best things to happen to FRC in recent memory.

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The fact that you have to go back to 1998 before you hit a game that didn't feature an endgame makes me think this is easily a possibility. FIRST is all about replicating a realistic engineering environment and what better way to do that than with a last minute wrench in the system.

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The "endgame" in '08 was almost nonexistent (there was no special "finale period," and it netted you a completely negligible number of points).

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I'm not saying that the raising the floor of competition effect is a bad thing at all. Of course that part of the Ri3D effect is excellent, and should be encouraged.

Ultimate Ascent's game design contributed, and I think Ri3D exacerbated, a limited diversity in 2013 robot designs. I think this is a negative thing.

Changing the game after kickoff would be one way for them to attempt to bring some diversity back, as some teams will choose to not attempt to change their design, while some will.

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I'm just a dumb teacher-coach but working with my team today, It seems as if the "truss" is like a destractor I would use in a multiple-guess question. Please bear with me if I completely illustrate the obvious, it is late and I'm an old guy. After re-reading the manual and watching the game animation over and over, the truss is not the focus of play regardless of the conspiracy comments above. The game is not focused (currently) upon just shooting the ball. What the game is focused on are several different ideas (in my opinion):
1. FIRST needs to keep growing. Rookie teams are the lifeblood of FRC. The autonomous +5 points for just getting from the starting zone to the end zone gives rookie teams a success. Your team and my team will find a way to move, shoot and score in the "hot zone" during auto. We kicked around camera, lazy susan turret and are working on several ideas for a shooter. Again, this part of the game buoys up the rookie teams giving them points for moving. Judging from our own team's experience, just getting the robot to move and do SOMETHING in auto. was a major accomplishment given the relative STEM inexperience and lack of longer term STEM systems in our school. One man's opinion only.

2. The multiple passing point system is an extension of the cooperative game from 2012. It is also something that FIRST has been gradually working on since we've been "in the game". The biggest obstacles for us are deciding how we will pass the ball and if we will get multiple points for 2-3 passing and concentrate on the lower versus upper shooting targets. Adding an elevator system is another system that has the potential of breaking down during the game and complicates both construction, and driver training. Our jury's still out but as of this afternoon, we want to be consistent enough to score and consistent enough to add to the team aspects of this game. Flame me if you want. I've got big shoulders and certainly can learn from all responses.

As posted above, the truss IS a destractor only unless FIRST changes the rules and offers points for doing more with it. 10 points for popping the ball over the bar is not something we want to be trying to do during the shortened game time. It would be cool, and we'll probably build a prototype to gather and shoot. Again, it is consistency of scoring points and team work that we want to sharpen up. For us it's about doing the picking in the finals rather than getting picked.

Fancy engineering is great if you've got the facilities and financial backing. Keeping it simple and to the goals of the game is how smaller, less funded teams operate. I'm thinking FIRST may have had this in mind too. This game is not as complicated as our first game in 2010. That's a good thing. As a teacher, I want my students to work the problem rather than having the problem work them. Great thread though....I'm quite interested to see how y'all work the problem, if you deal with the truss, or just stay the course, keep it real and score lots of points in partnership with others on the course.

Again...I am NOT an engineer but a mere AP Human Geo, AP Government, AP Economics instructor. I truly want to get your thoughts on this. Your thoughts can only make all of our teams better. See some of y'all at the Dallas Regional?

Steve Miller
Team 3355-Purple Vipers

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

Touche.

For those that weren't around:

In 2008, throwing a TRACKBALL over the OVERPASS (HURDLING) was worth 10 pts. The endgame bonus was 12 points for a TRACKBALL being ON the OVERPASS at the end of the MATCH.

In practice, teams just tried firing from a little further back than their usual shooting spot, and hoped it landed on top for the bonus 2 points, but weren't too bothered if instead they scored a HURDLE.

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And yet there was still one(I said endgames in general not good endgames). the last game where it was "score, score, score till the clock ran out" game was '98.

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Pragmatically, though, the endgame has not universally been been an important part of FRC for any significant period of time. I don't think it's all that unbelievable that they decided to do a game without one.

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Perhaps the endgame is to have the human players get the balls balanced on top of the truss. This game seems to have several 'recycled' elements anyway (the balls from '08, the goals from '13, etc.), so maybe they'll strengthen the Overdrive throwback and have the endgame be to put the balls on top of the truss.

More generally though, I'm inclined to think they'll introduce something new. Ri3Ds are limiting the diversity of robots (especially with a game like this one where I imagine most robots will be able to do most things like capture balls, move with them, and get into a goal).

Climbing on the truss seems like too much of a '13 repeat, though.

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I don't know. It was pretty important in:

2003
2004
(I don't remember 2005's endgame, as I didn't compete)
2006
2007
2010
2011
2012
2013

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I don't think it is either, but FIRST knows how to make a competitive exciting game and having an endgame has played a big roll in that since 06-07 minus 2008 as stated before

edit: 05 had a homezone endgame rule where you were awarded points if your robot made it back to that zone

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Well, maybe if... Ya know, I'm just not gonna think about this and focus on the actual game as of now rather than planning for something that may not happen :P

That being said im inclined to think something will change during the season


We have a robot to build.

Re: The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game
 

In the launch video he talked about how he liked that first was a lot like the real world and how he wanted it to be even more realistic. In the real word the project parameters can and will change at inconvenient times. So if first threw us a curveball and added a climbing element after week 1, it would be a lot like the real world.

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Why 6 Cims? That seems a little excessive to me....

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And 4 MiniCIMs as well.