Chief Delphi - Why only one ball?

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- - Why only one ball? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124100)

austin4169

05-01-2014 15:35

Why only one ball?

It seems like only one ball is in play during the teleop period, which really doesn't make any sense:

Quote:

Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

I would think more time would be spend with human players running around with balls outside the field than will be spent with the balls being controlled by the robots. Did I get something wrong? thoughts?

Zuelu562

05-01-2014 15:37

Re: Why only one ball?

The field staff handles balls that are not in play. Human players other than the primary inbounder are there pretty much to save you from starting almost completely over if a ball goes way out of bounds for some reason.

jgcoded

05-01-2014 15:39

Re: Why only one ball?

Technically, in the beginning, more than one of an alliance's balls can be in play at a time, but a new cycle won't begin until that last ball is scored. Once the last ball is scored, the light on the ball pedestal will light up.

Autonomous mode could hurt an alliance if their robot misses. It might just be better to roll into your zone and claim the 5 points, rather than go for a shot, unless you're 100% certain you won't miss.

austin4169

05-01-2014 16:50

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuelu562 (Post 1321621)

The field staff handles balls that are not in play.

regardless of who handles it, I kinda feel like its gonna take a while for somebody to get the ball to get from past one end of the goal to the other end of the field. And thats gonna be annoying if your robots are just waiting for more balls.

alectronic

05-01-2014 16:59

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by austin4169 (Post 1321686)

while they are getting the one you scored, another has already been placed on the pedestal, so there is no delay. They put a new one on the pedestal as soon as the light goes off, so it is already there and good to go once the light comes on.

MrForbes

05-01-2014 17:18

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by austin4169 (Post 1321618)

My though is that you haven't watched robots trying to manipulate large balls....it's hilarious to watch, and agonizing if you're on the team that's trying to do it. It's not as easy as you might think. I expect that if an alliance can get the ball from one end of the field to the other, using 3 robots, it will take roughly a minute to do so. If they have their acts together.

yash101

05-01-2014 17:33

Re: Why only one ball?

This game will be quite some challenge. I guess one possibility could be some hammer assembly meant to bounce the ball. When the ball is in the air, the robot can get under it. However, that still seems quite impractical!

Kevin Sevcik

05-01-2014 19:42

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1321704)

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

Koko Ed

05-01-2014 19:45

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1321828)

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYNEAL_dK6I

GaryVoshol

05-01-2014 19:53

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by austin4169 (Post 1321618)

HP's better not run around outside the field, unless they want to rack up FOULS.

Quote:

3.2.7.9 G39
During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN
PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and
inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.
Violation: FOUL

MrForbes

05-01-2014 20:01

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1321828)

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

I was there....the robot generally had to pass the ball to itself (over the overpass) once per lap.

It'd going to be hilarious....I described the game to my mom today, she could immediately imagine how much fun it will be to watch. I hope she can make it to the competition, to see her grandsons play :)

Alan2338

05-01-2014 22:53

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

3.1.2 MATCH LOGISTICS
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

Are there 3 or 4 balls total available to be put in the rotation of cycles?

Also

Quote:

G5
For ROBOTS starting in their GOALIE ZONE the TEAM may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

With the definition of a match as the full 2:30, if it's removed from the FIELD for the MATCH, is that ball permanently out of the rotation of Red or Blue's Match balls?

Quote:

G5
For ROBOTS starting in the white ZONE, the TEAM may preload one (1) of their ALLIANCE’s BALLS such that the BALL is touching their ROBOT.

Even more with the auto balls, do you have to take one if not in the goalie zone? And if you can choose to opt out, and leave it out of auto, is it out of the FIELD for the MATCH?

-------------

If we are correct about this whole limited number of balls in a rotation, and there is not a stockpile, do you lose out by choosing for a goalie or choosing for someone not to take a ball? If this is true, you could end up with only two balls. I am already worried about the speed of the field worker being a variable to worry about, but if you only end up with 2 balls, it becomes even worse.

alectronic

06-01-2014 00:37

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2338 (Post 1322031)

Is there anything that explicitly states a ball is on the pedestal to begin the match? We haven't found any...

They stated during kickoff that field crew would stage a new ball anytime the light was off, so that it would be available to the team when the light came on. (I'm not sure how else you would get the first ball into the CYCLE?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2338 (Post 1322031)

Are there 3 or 4 balls total available to be put in the rotation of cycles?

I don't think there is a specific number. The idea is that whenever a ball is scored, another is available for play. That is what they imply in the Kickoff videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERuue...qTbhru_5#t=107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2338 (Post 1322031)

With the definition of a match as the full 2:30, if it's removed from the FIELD for the MATCH, is that ball permanently out of the rotation of Red or Blue's Match balls?

As with above, I think that is over-analysis. I don't think the crew will "only" have those 2 balls to use, it is just a queue from all the balls they have back-stocked so that one is always available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2338 (Post 1322031)

Even more with the auto balls, do you have to take one if not in the goalie zone? And if you can choose to opt out, and leave it out of auto, is it out of the FIELD for the MATCH?

For starting positions, please see G5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manual G5

For ROBOTS starting in the white ZONE, the TEAM may preload one (1) of their ALLIANCE’s BALLS such that the BALL is touching their ROBOT.

For ROBOTS starting in their GOALIE ZONE the TEAM may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

If a ROBOT does not report to a MATCH, its ALLIANCE may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

You never have to take a ball. But any ball you take in auto must be put into a goal before you can score ANY points in teleop.

bduddy

06-01-2014 13:55

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2338 (Post 1322031)

Okay, so a few of us on 2338 think we are either missing something or we found something interesting.

First off, a few things.

Is there anything that explicitly states a ball is on the pedestal to begin the match? We haven't found any...

Next

Are there 3 or 4 balls total available to be put in the rotation of cycles?

Also

With the definition of a match as the full 2:30, if it's removed from the FIELD for the MATCH, is that ball permanently out of the rotation of Red or Blue's Match balls?

Even more with the auto balls, do you have to take one if not in the goalie zone? And if you can choose to opt out, and leave it out of auto, is it out of the FIELD for the MATCH?

-------------

If we are correct about this whole limited number of balls in a rotation, and there is not a stockpile, do you lose out by choosing for a goalie or choosing for someone not to take a ball? If this is true, you could end up with only two balls. I am already worried about the speed of the field worker being a variable to worry about, but if you only end up with 2 balls, it becomes even worse.

You only "end up with" 1 ball no matter what. After you score your 3 or less autonomous balls, only 1 ball is placed onto the pedestal no matter what. That is what 3.1.2 means.

Racer26

06-01-2014 14:26

Re: Why only one ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1321828)

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

Multiple times a minute, yes.

BUT

Even 2008 World Champion team 1114, with Simbot SS being arguably the most dominant robot in FRC since 71 in 2002, was only consistently doing 6-7 hurdles in a match.

I expect that a top team flying solo in 2014 will be able to achieve 6, maybe 7 1-assist cycles. Top alliances at championship will be lucky to push 5 3-assist cycles in a match.

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