Chief Delphi - Team UPDATE

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

- General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124255)

Steven Donow

07-01-2014 16:15

Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0#term127

Game Manual:

Quote:

Game Details
MATCH Logistics
We've received questions about how a MATCH will proceed if a BALL gets stuck on or in a ROBOT or on the TRUSS. We are in the process of refining the process and are incorporating feedback from Chief volunteers to identify the cleanest solution.

Scoring
For BALLS with which the ALLIANCE started the MATCH, points are awarded when they are SCORED in GOALS.

For BALLS retrieved from an ALLIANCE'S PEDASTAL, points are awarded to ALLIANCES per the details below. Final scores will be assessed five (5) seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero (0) or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first.

Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH and as each objective is achieved. Additional points are credited to an ALLIANCE upon each GOAL based on the number of ASSISTS earned by the ALLIANCE for that CYCLE.

A BALL is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if

a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS and into the opposing ALLIANCE STATION without intervening human contact,
the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and
the BALL is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE.
Pre-MATCH
G4
When placed on the FIELD, each ROBOT must be:

in compliance with all ROBOT rules (i.e. have passed Inspection),
confined to its STARTING CONFIGURATION,
entirely within their GOALIE ZONE, or
entirely within the white ZONE and between the TRUSS and their GOALS, and
fully supported by the floor.

TEAMS positioning ROBOTS in the white ZONE have precedence over opponents placing ROBOTS in the GOALIE ZONE.

Violation: If fix is a quick remedy: the MATCH won’t start until all requirements are met. If it is not a quick remedy: the ROBOT will be DISABLED and must be re-Inspected.

ROBOT Actions
G26-1
ROBOTS may not break the planes of the openings of the opponent’s LOW GOALS.

Violation: FOUL. If extended, strategic, or repeated, TECHNICAL FOUL.

Game Manual
Many of the USB Image Restoration Keys that shipped with the Green Totes have been reported as damaged. If you are in this situation, you can follow the instructions here to fix your USB Image Restoration Key. We want to remind Rookie Teams that the Classmate that shipped in the Green Tote has a Windows 7 image on it, so the Team is not required to image the computer.

The Kickoff Kit Checklist for the Black Tote has been updated. The errors that were corrected are:

The Ice Cube Cooler Kit quantity has been changed to 1.
The Panel Signal Device has been added as a “loose” item.

Administrative Manual

Quote:

Interview Process and DVD Requirement
Teams submitting for the Chairman’s Award must provide a DVD to the judges at the start of their Chairman’s Award interview. The content of the video must be in English and should explain what the team has done to earn the Chairman’s Award. The video content may be in the team’s native language, but if that language is not English, the team must add English subtitles to be eligible for the Chairman’s Award at any event in the US or Canada, or at any non-US or Canadian event at which their native language is not generally spoken. The video may be shown to the judges during the team’s 5 minute presentation time or the team can choose to not show the video during the presentation time. Even if the video is NOT shown during the interview, a DVD must still be provided to the Judges in order for the team to be considered for the Chairman’s Award. In addition, the team must provide the equipment for viewing (i.e. laptop/speakers etc.) the video. Teams who do not submit a DVD to the judges will not be considered eligible for the Chairman’s Award and will not be interviewed by the judges. This is applicable at all events including the FIRST Championship.

Changes in bold.

Good to see clarification on some things (precedence in placing robots) and that they're figuring out what to do about stuck balls.

JeffersonMartin

07-01-2014 16:20

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

I may be reading this wrong, but is this saying that auto balls not scored in auto can be scored in teleop?

Steven Donow

07-01-2014 16:23

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffersonMartin (Post 1323285)

I may be reading this wrong, but is this saying that auto balls not scored in auto can be scored in teleop?

I believe so. Now it is providing a distinction between balls part of a cycle and balls obtained at the beginning of a match.

EDIT: Upon further reading/thought/discussino in this thread, it seems like they are not eligible for Truss/Assist/Catch points

JohnSchneider

07-01-2014 16:23

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

This means Balls acquired in auto and then scored after get goal points. Does this also mean they gain assist points? Or do they just get the 10 for going in the goals?

Glad to see some rewriting is going on for rules regarding dead robots.

notmattlythgoe

07-01-2014 16:24

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffersonMartin (Post 1323285)

I may be reading this wrong, but is this saying that auto balls not scored in auto can be scored in teleop?

That's the way I always understood it. Assists or truss scores won't be tallied but they still count as points in the goal when you score them, just no bonuses for being in autonomous anymore.

JeffersonMartin

07-01-2014 16:24

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevenStonow (Post 1323290)

I believe so. Now it is providing a distinction between balls part of a cycle and balls obtained at the beginning of a match. This update also leads me to believe that autonomous balls are eligible for Truss/Catch/Assist points, although I'm not certain.

Well, if this is true, it could make sense to not score balls in auto. Your possibility for points is much higher in teleop.

BBray_T1296

07-01-2014 16:28

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffersonMartin (Post 1323285)

I may be reading this wrong, but is this saying that auto balls not scored in auto can be scored in teleop?

yes, as all AUTO balls need to be scored before the first CYCLE begins.

But waiting to score until TELEOP is likely wasting your time because you could be starting a CYCLE immediately as AUTO ends.

bam-bam

07-01-2014 16:32

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

The balls not scored in autonomous are not eligible for truss, catch or assist points from what I read.

See:

Quote:

For BALLS retrieved from an ALLIANCE'S PEDASTAL, points are awarded to ALLIANCES per the details below.

Balls in autonomous were not received from the pedastal, therefore not awarded per the specified details (which includes truss, catch and assist points among others).

notmattlythgoe

07-01-2014 16:32

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffersonMartin (Post 1323293)

Well, if this is true, it could make sense to not score balls in auto. Your possibility for points is much higher in teleop.

I don't believe this is what it means. Since all of those rules call under the pedestal section those points are only availbale to you if the ball came from the pedestal, not preloaded. The only points available to a preloaded ball are the extras in auto and the goal points.

PayneTrain

07-01-2014 16:32

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffersonMartin (Post 1323293)

Well, if this is true, it could make sense to not score balls in auto. Your possibility for points is much higher in teleop.

No. Think of teleop as having two time-independent periods. Before you clear all balls from the autonomus period, you are in a Pre-CYCLE Mode. Balls that enter their goals will still receive goal points, but do not have a chance at earning any of the autonomous bonus points (including shooting autonomously and into hot goals) or cycle bonus points (including assists, truss shots, and truss catches). After all of thsoe balls have cleared the field of play, the pedestal is lit, signifying the beginning of CYCLE mode, the second time-independent teleop period.

BBray_T1296

07-01-2014 16:34

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by animenerdjohn (Post 1323291)

I believe that all AUTO balls are not part of CYCLEs and therefore are ineligible for truss, catch, and assist points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Game Manual 3.1.4

A CYCLE is the series of events that recur regularly, and each CYCLE begins with an ALLIANCE member retrieving their BALL from their lit PEDESTAL

Since AUTO balls did not come from the PEDESTAL, they are not part of a CYCLE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Game Manual 3.1.4

Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH

I interpret this to mean these points are only accumulated if and only if the balls are in a CYCLE

themccannman

07-01-2014 16:41

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by bam-bam (Post 1323299)

The balls not scored in autonomous are not eligible for truss, catch or assist points from what I read.

See:

Quote:

For BALLS retrieved from an ALLIANCE'S PEDASTAL, points are awarded to ALLIANCES per the details below.

Balls in autonomous were not received from the pedastal, therefore not awarded per the specified details (which includes truss, catch and assist points among others).

I'm pretty sure this settles it. You can only get a max of 10 points per ball that was left over after auto.

BEN35678

07-01-2014 16:44

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

When it says "TEAMS positioning ROBOTS in the white ZONE have precedence over opponents placing ROBOTS in the GOALIE ZONE."

That means that the robots in the white zone can move their robot after the robot in the goalie zone right?

SM987

07-01-2014 16:49

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

This is somewhat disappointing. A flawless auto now gives you a smaller point advantage (plus a faster cycle start). Takes some emphasis off auto.

Duncan Macdonald

07-01-2014 16:51

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

A BALL is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if

a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS and into the opposing ALLIANCE STATION without intervening human contact,
the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and
the BALL is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE.
....
ALLIANCE STATION: the area bounded by the ALLIANCE WALL, LOW GOALS, white tape depicted in Figure 2.11: The ALLIANCE STATION.

emphasis mine

Perhaps I'm being overly cautious, but I am reading this to effectively say "A ball must land within the alliance station to score" because the alliance station is defined as an area and not a volume (or projection of an area). This would limit the maximum range to get credit for a goal at about 10 feet. (Also increase safety for anyone walking behind the field if you like that kind of thing)

Thoughts?

jee7s

07-01-2014 16:52

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SM987 (Post 1323310)

This is somewhat disappointing. A flawless auto now gives you a smaller point advantage (plus a faster cycle start). Takes some emphasis off auto.

How do you figure? You still get the bonuses, right? Just making the high goal and driving forward is worth two goals. And, the less performing you are in Autonomous, the longer it takes to start your first cycle of the match. I don't see how there's that much of a change here.

JeffersonMartin

07-01-2014 16:55

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald (Post 1323313)

I don't know if it increases safety. I see this getting a lot more coaches and drivers, who can't really be aware of balls coming in through the goal, hit by scored balls.

jee7s

07-01-2014 16:58

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald (Post 1323313)

The definition of ALLIANCE STATION is:

Quote:

The Red and Blue ALLIANCE STATIONS are located at either end of the FIELD, behind the ALLIANCE WALLS. The ALLIANCE STATION extends 10 ft. back from the ALLIANCE WALL and 1 ft. 8 in. beyond the carpet on each side. The ALLIANCE STATION includes the three (3) PLAYER STATIONS and one (1) PEDESTAL. The STARTING LINE is marked with white 2 in. wide gaffers tape 2 ft. 6 in. behind the ALLIANCE WALL. The ALLIANCE STATION includes the area up to the entry gates of the FIELD, with the end of the ALLIANCE STATION marked out in 2 in. white gaffers tape.

Since it extends "behind the ALLIANCE WALLS" and the ALLIANCE WALLS are vertical, that means the ALLIANCE STATION is a volume, by my interpretation.

IMHO.

vhcook

07-01-2014 17:06

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

I'm thinking that

Quote:

a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS and into the opposing ALLIANCE STATION without intervening human contact,

is an addition mostly to clarify that for the low goals, they have to go into the low goal box and through the alliance station wall to be scored, rather than indicating that high goal shots have to land inside the alliance station tape.

ToddF

07-01-2014 17:21

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhcook (Post 1323323)

I'm thinking that

is an addition mostly to clarify that for the low goals, they have to go into the low goal box and through the alliance station wall to be scored, rather than indicating that high goal shots have to land inside the alliance station tape.

Correct. Previously, the low goal was scored when the ball passed the planes defined by the outer faces of the cubes. It was possible to shoot a ball through the side face of the cube and have it bounce back out, available to be scored again and again. This clarifies that the ball does not score the low goal until it passes through the wall, into the alliance station, where it can be recovered and placed on a pedestal.

Taylor

07-01-2014 18:30

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

The best and most significant part of this update is the one about the Chairman's Video. Thank you, HQ, for making this change.

Bald & Bearded

07-01-2014 19:09

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddF (Post 1323340)

But now I wonder how hard it would be for a ball to get stuck in one of the low goals. Hopefully someone with access to a real field will provide some information on that. Also, with the fact that the low goal is so close in size to the ball itself plus the 7" lip at the bottom high goals might just be easier to score.

JesseK

07-01-2014 19:50

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jee7s (Post 1323314)

It reduces the point advantage to 15 points from what it was. The faster cycle start is arguably non-existent as well since the missed ball can be retrieved by the best high goal scorer (who will most likely stay in the colored zone anyways) while the other two robots go delay the start of the opponents' first cycle via defense and setup for the start of their own cycles. The only reliable counter to that is a goalie bot, which then puts the 3rd autonomous ball at risk (unless it's a NASA bot...).

Gregor

07-01-2014 22:53

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

TEAMS positioning ROBOTS in the white ZONE have precedence over opponents placing ROBOTS in the GOALIE ZONE.

I'm not sure why they chose the word precedence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Precedence Definition

The condition of being considered more important than someone or something else; priority in importance, order, or rank.

I assume this means that a robot positioning itself in the white alliance gets the last move, because it is more important?

What does more important mean, in terms of positioning?

PayneTrain

07-01-2014 22:54

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1323432)

I know it's not always great to make direct comparisons, but in 2013, if an alliance took advantage of all discs availalbe on your half of the field, they could score 78 points (the points available at midfield would give an extra 12 points). In 2014, the points an alliance can score in autonomous is 75. It's not that bad.

Karibou

07-01-2014 23:05

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1323522)

I assume this means that a robot positioning itself in the white alliance gets the last move, because it is more important?

What does more important mean, in terms of positioning?

I believe that answers the question asked in this thread. Makes it a bit harder to block in auton.

Lil' Lavery

07-01-2014 23:34

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

One of the best team updates ever!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SM987 (Post 1323310)

This is somewhat disappointing. A flawless auto now gives you a smaller point advantage (plus a faster cycle start). Takes some emphasis off auto.

If you thought they wouldn't be worth points before, yes I agree that it takes "some" emphasis off of autonomous mode. But there's still a huge emphasis, not the least of which is starting your cycle sooner. Five bonus points for each ball scored (regardless of goal), five points for moving, and a possibly five points further for scoring in a hot goal. That could be 15 points per robot in bonuses alone.

cbudrecki

08-01-2014 01:16

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

disappointed that they didn't really define G4, C - "their GOALIE ZONE". although, the "opponents placing ROBOTS in the GOALIE ZONE" does indirectly clarify it a bit.

Akash Rastogi

08-01-2014 02:25

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1323522)

I'm not sure why they chose the word precedence.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

DampRobot

08-01-2014 02:35

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1323628)

I was thinking the exact same thing.

It is a rather confusing word for the situation...

themccannman

08-01-2014 02:43

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

prec·e·dence
ˈpresədəns,priˈsēdns
noun
1.
the condition of being considered more important than someone or something else; priority in importance, order, or rank.

priority usually means first, but in this case you don't want priority, you want to go second. I'm pretty sure we all get what they mean but the GDC really needs to think through some of the stuff they write in the manual, it's really easy to get lawyered.

Akash Rastogi

08-01-2014 02:58

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by themccannman (Post 1323635)

I'm pretty sure we all get what they mean but the GDC really needs to think through some of the stuff they write in the manual, it's really easy to get lawyered.

Yep.

MikeE

08-01-2014 09:52

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by themccannman (Post 1323635)

I'm pretty sure we all get what they mean but the GDC really needs to think through some of the stuff they write in the manual, it's really easy to get lawyered.

I'm certain the GDC do think very carefully about what they write in the manual.

But as any computational linguist will tell you, human language is a extremely imprecise form of communication. To be effective it requires a significant set of shared assumptions by all parties.

It's far easier to find ambiguity in the rules than to write them.

themccannman

08-01-2014 15:08

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeE (Post 1323711)

Very true, it just seems that this years manual has had a lot more ambiguity than previous years. It just seems that the obvious way to state the rule would be "teams in the goalie zones must position their bot before teams in the white zone."

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:04.