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jee7s 09-01-2014 16:47
2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
FRC 2789 tried to consolidate our game breakdown into a single page...and we did. We narrowed the margins and used 9 point font, but it fits. Please comment, critique, or throw it in the trash as you see fit.

Quote:
Scoring notes
Maximum Autonomous:
25 pts/team
75 pts/alliance

Maximum Teleop per Cycle:
60 points (10 TRUSS, 10 CATCH, 10 HIGH GOAL, +30 ASSIST BONUS)

Penalty for low goal:
9 points, constant

Pertinent points about the game:
* Top goal and Truss are roughly the same height
* Low goal easily defended
* Game is all about possession
* Possession is well defined.
* No “safe” zones. Robots are subject to contact across the field.
* No max score by rules
* Cycles don’t start until all Autonomous Balls are scored
* No provision for a ball stuck in a robot that is dead -- may never start cycles
* No requirement that all robots on an alliance possess a ball at start of match

Strategic estimates:
* Minimum estimated cycle time is 14 seconds, so max 10 cycles in game → Theoretical Max 675 points per match
* Realistic cycle time is 30 seconds, so max 5 cycles per game → Idealized 375 points per match
* Three well coordinated robots is unlikely, so drop catch chance to 1 in 5 → 335 points per match
* Nominal 2 coordinated robots, so drop match score to maximum expected 225 points per match. ← This is the Champs score expectation
* Average 1 in three can score all 25 auton points, 1 in three score 16, 1 in three score 5. In teleop one half of performance expected → Realistic Maximum of 121. ← This is the Regional Elims score expectation
* Defense is VERY signficiant as there are no safe zones
* Possession is key. Herding gets you the assist, but opponents will likely disrupt your movement down the field.
* Pay attention to human player rules re: balls that leave the playing field
* HOT goal will be hit-or-miss for most teams
* Three fundamental roles: Shooter, Midfielder, Inbounder
* Shooter is maneuverable but not necessarily fast, scores in top goal reliably, can catch
* Midfielder is maneuverable and fast, can score in top goal, can toss the ball
* Inbounder defends the opponent’s scorer and pushes their ball up the field

Robot Design Notes:
* Extension is 20” all the way around the robot, so no cylinder rule
* Solenoid Cv restriction is lifted
* 5’ Height restriction limits arm viability
* In the end, it’s an energy problem to shoot the ball -- they gave us those constant force springs for a reason
* Mecanum drivetrain is potentially trouble since there are no safe zones
* All robots need a fast on-the-fly pickup and good possession mechanism
* Midfielder needs to send the ball over the truss, but not necessarily accurately
* Scorer needs to hit the top goal. Period.
* Bumper rule is extra strict this year...build them well
* No reason a team can’t score 5 points in Autonomous with a modicum of effort.

Team3266Spencer 09-01-2014 17:00
Re: Game Breakdown
 
I would really love to see a 600 point game. Sounds like cheetahs playing catch XD. I think we hit mostly all the stuff you guys did with your discussion.

I'm feeling better we didn't miss anything big ourselves as well. Good luck!

Short Stuff 09-01-2014 17:16
Re: Game Breakdown
 
This will become a high scoring game but defense will be play a huge role however they will have to be very careful based on the penalties for committing fouls.

Johhey 09-01-2014 17:42
Re: Game Breakdown
 
Hate to be that guy, but I caught a typo.

"Defense is VERY signficiant as there are no safe zones"

It should be significant. Sorry :)

Kyle Love 09-01-2014 17:48
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
I would add a point under the robot design notes that you can extend past the 5' limit, but can only be within the 6" diameter extension.

Quote:
R3.D Any extension above 60 in. may not exceed a 6 in. diameter vertical cylinder (see Figure 4-3 and Figure 4-4 for examples), per G23.

Animal Control 09-01-2014 18:05
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
do you know what the dimension of the goalie zone is?:]

Canon reeves 09-01-2014 18:06
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Sounds about what we got, I would add however the midfielder could be able to catch and the in bounding robot shoot over truss and the midfielder assist then either play defense on opponents in bounding robot and play anti defense for their shooter? It could go either way, but we were planning on being a midfielder and catching it assisting, than playing defense.

Shadowreaper513 09-01-2014 18:28
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
How do you get "Theoretecal" points?

thursam 09-01-2014 18:52
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Control (Post 1324671)
do you know what the dimension of the goalie zone is?:]
All three zones have the same dimensions. Here's what I found. If I am incorrect, someone please tell me so I won't be using incorrect information.

Width: 296 inches + or - 1 inch (24.6 feet)
Length: 216 inches + or - 1.3 inches (18 feet)

Rynocorn 09-01-2014 20:21
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Love (Post 1324665)
I would add a point under the robot design notes that you can extend past the 5' limit, but can only be within the 6" diameter extension.
But only when you are touching the carpet in the goalie zone, not other times. Wouldn't want any robots hitting that big lighting truss

Kevin Leonard 09-01-2014 21:10
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thursam (Post 1324696)
All three zones have the same dimensions. Here's what I found. If I am incorrect, someone please tell me so I won't be using incorrect information.

Width: 296 inches + or - 1 inch (24.6 feet)
Length: 216 inches + or - 1.3 inches (18 feet)
He's talking about the "Goalie Zones", or the area marked by black tape under each set of high goals and bounded by the corners of the one-point goals.

I would mention your "inbounder" should have a blocking extension for blocking shots in the goalie zone.

The three roles as I assumed them were:
The "Goalie"- responsible for the first assist, passing, blocking shots. A good goalie will also be able to truss score.

The "Midfielder"- responsible for the second assist, truss scoring, passing and having a floor pickup. A good midfielder will also be able to catch.

The "Forward"- responsible for the third assist, scoring in both goals, having a floor pickup, and catching. A good forward will have a powerful and maneuverable drivetrain.

We'll see how the game strategy evolves, however. Some team might come up with some crazy 2010 469 strategy that utterly dominates.

I'm quite excited for this year.

Kyle Love 09-01-2014 22:08
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rynocorn (Post 1324721)
But only when you are touching the carpet in the goalie zone, not other times. Wouldn't want any robots hitting that big lighting truss
Very true. That would be a detail to add to it.

jee7s 10-01-2014 09:48
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowreaper513 (Post 1324683)
How do you get "Theoretecal" points?
By "theoretical" we mean a scenario where three specialized robots are aligned to complete a cycle as quickly as possible without opposition. Our definition of cycle is the same as the Game Manual definition.

The basic timing looks something like this:
3 seconds: Human player(s) retrieve the ball from the pedestal and enter it into play.
1 second: first robot establishes posession
2 seconds: ball is in motion between first and second robots
1 second: second robot establishes possession
3 seconds: ball in flight over the truss
1 second: third robot catches the ball and establishes possession
3 seconds: third robot launches the ball into the top goal and cycle completes

We call that "theoretical" because it involves no opposition. Also, note that the points aren't theoretical, the scenario is. Someone mentioned cheetahs in reference to this. It's not just cheetahs, it's cheetahs playing speed billiards with a yoga ball.

The "idealized" scenario is one where we account for real world slip ups, like missing shots and the ball behaving in unexpected ways. It's still not something we expect to happen in real life, but it gets us closer to a realistic estimate.

After that we enter reality and make our estimates based on the above numbers.

arizonafoxx 10-01-2014 10:18
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jee7s (Post 1324915)
By "theoretical" we mean a scenario where three specialized robots are aligned to complete a cycle as quickly as possible without opposition. Our definition of cycle is the same as the Game Manual definition.

The basic timing looks something like this:
3 seconds: Human player(s) retrieve the ball from the pedestal and enter it into play.
1 second: first robot establishes posession
2 seconds: ball is in motion between first and second robots
1 second: second robot establishes possession
3 seconds: ball in flight over the truss
1 second: third robot catches the ball and establishes possession
3 seconds: third robot launches the ball into the top goal and cycle completes

We call that "theoretical" because it involves no opposition. Also, note that the points aren't theoretical, the scenario is. Someone mentioned cheetahs in reference to this. It's not just cheetahs, it's cheetahs playing speed billiards with a yoga ball.

The "idealized" scenario is one where we account for real world slip ups, like missing shots and the ball behaving in unexpected ways. It's still not something we expect to happen in real life, but it gets us closer to a realistic estimate.

After that we enter reality and make our estimates based on the above numbers.
If Robot 1 is able to shoot the ball from zone 1 over the truss and robot 2 is able to catch the ball while completely in zone 2. Robot 2 could then pass to robot 3 in zone 3 and robot 3 could score in the high goal. This could potential save a few seconds in this theoretical scenario.

Anthony4004 10-01-2014 10:24
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
In the new update, they say they are working out what to do in case a ball gets stuck in multiple ways. No official rule yet as they need to process it.

jee7s 10-01-2014 10:25
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arizonafoxx (Post 1324936)
If Robot 1 is able to shoot the ball from zone 1 over the truss and robot 2 is able to catch the ball while completely in zone 2. Robot 2 could then pass to robot 3 in zone 3 and robot 3 could score in the high goal. This could potential save a few seconds in this theoretical scenario.
I think that adds up the same if not more. The longer flight might add to the 14 second number.

Ultimately, regardless of order you need:

1 human player entry @ 3 seconds
2 tosses @ 3 seconds each
1 pass @ 2 seconds
3 possessions established @ 1 second

So, it's 3 + (2 * 3) + 2 + (3 * 1) = 14 seconds.

heritageorchard 10-01-2014 10:48
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Thank you very much for the synopsys.

Coach Norm 10-01-2014 11:34
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arizonafoxx (Post 1324936)
If Robot 1 is able to shoot the ball from zone 1 over the truss and robot 2 is able to catch the ball while completely in zone 2. Robot 2 could then pass to robot 3 in zone 3 and robot 3 could score in the high goal. This could potential save a few seconds in this theoretical scenario.
I think a long launch from zone 1 over the truss might be difficult to catch in zone 2 (all dependent on the angle).

Could robot two not catch it in Zone 3 and then pass to robot in zone 2 who then shoots from long distance?

Or could robot 2 catch in zone 3, move to zone 2 and pass to robot 3 in zone 3?

Abhishek R 10-01-2014 12:12
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
I would say the cycle time of 30 seconds is a bit harsh, though it may be accurate. I think the number one alliance can get their cycles done in 15-20 seconds.

Pault 10-01-2014 18:46
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
I think you forgot to mention possession :rolleyes:

I agree though. If you plan on just pushing the ball, or don't put in enough effort to make a decent floor pickup, you won't be getting picked. I don't care if you have an accurate shooter with reliable hot goal tracking and a decent catcher, if you can't reliably pick up from the ground you aren't going to be worth much to an alliance.

Qcom 10-01-2014 20:00
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek R (Post 1325023)
I would say the cycle time of 30 seconds is a bit harsh, though it may be accurate. I think the number one alliance can get their cycles done in 15-20 seconds.
I'd say that for region qualifiers, that is a fairly good average. While many teams will perform faster, at the beginning everyone is going to have to figure out the best strategy with their alliance to get things running.

Perhaps the first cycle of the matches will take 30, but by the end it will approach 15 sec.

@MeyerJasonB 11-01-2014 13:07
Re: 2014 FRC Game Breakdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Control (Post 1324671)
do you know what the dimension of the goalie zone is?:]
Did you ever get a certain and precise answer to this question?

We did some math to calculate it:

The trick was figuring the width of the LOW GOALS, which we finally deduced as a 29" opening + twice the width of the posts, which appear from the drawings to be 1.75."

So the GOALIE ZONE dimensions are (we hope):

WIDTH = Width of field - 2*(width of low goals)
= 296" - 2*(29"+1.75"+1.75")
= 231"

DEPTH = Depth of LOW GOAL box = (29+1.75+1.75") = 32.5"

BUT BUT BUT--- Does that sound right to you?:confused:


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