Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Sounds like a reasonable resolution to the ball stuck issues. Glad to see an activation fix.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

"If a BALL becomes stuck on the TRUSS, the Head Referee will shake the TRUSS to free the BALL. In this situation, the ALLIANCE will not earn TRUSS points. While shaking the TRUSS, the Head Referee will take care not to impact gameplay of the other ALLIANCE."

New criteria for head referees, be very strong.

On the serious note, if the truss can be shaken enough so that a stuck ball will be freed, what precautions will be made to prevent the truss from falling down if a larger force was applied (ie. robot with ball extending above 62in)? Also, what happens if the ball stays stuck for an extended period of time or even the whole match?
(#trussfall)(#trussfail)

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Good solution, the best way, to do this.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Lots of weights on the truss bases. ;)

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Agreed. This season is 2/2 in terms of good team updates so far!

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Look at what is the base of the truss... It aint falling over from shaking or a robot hitting it.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Great solution for a ball stuck during teleop.

However I'm not sure I understand what this means at the end of autonomous, likely for balls "stuck" in a non-moving robot.
More interestingly how about two balls stuck in multiple non-moving robots?

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I speculate that the truss is not so rigid that it will not vibrate, so a ball can be dislodged using that vibration, but it not so compliant that it will fall over.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Question: does this mean that teams will suspend work on their automatic ball eject systems? :yikes:

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I think FIRST has accounted for the occasional failure or communication error with this update. The teams now have to hold up their end of the bargain, and design their robots so this does not happen often.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

pertaining to the opposing alliance getting your ball stuck: "If the stuck BALL is freed, that ball will be considered FIELD debris."

Is this ball going to be handled the same way as a dead ball?

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Field debris: Better known as out of play permanently. See Section 3.1.2.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

It appears that the team update was revised. Here's the new stuff:

It also looks like the classmate windows activation info was deleted.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Sure hope they come back and clarify saying that traditional red card rules apply in that instance (offender carded in qualifiers, alliances in elimination) because that could be a real gem-of-a way of tanking an alliance partner you are randomly matched with.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

So by the terms of possession, if the robot is immobile with an opponents ball, is it considered possession since the robot is not moving? If it is considered possession, then that means an immobile robot with a ball on an allied robot is also considered possession meaning any robot, mobile or not, that is fully supporting a ball is considered in possession of the ball. Unless of course an immobile robot with a ball on it is not considered possession. Right?

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I just made a thread for this very topic not 5 hours ago:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=124434

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I think it's a way of ensuring that you keep your partners off of your opponents' ball.

If your own is stuck, you declare dead ball, the ball is dead, assists are reset, and you get a new ball--and to be clarified, you might get goal points from it if it comes free.

If your opponents' is stuck in you, you get 100 points in fouls, possibility of an alliance red card...AND they get a fresh cycle! Translation, if you know a partner has a tendency to chase and possess the wrong ball, keep them far, far away from the opponents' ball, by using the E-stop if you have to!

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Am I the only one who let out a hearty laugh when reading this?

Also, I wonder if you can get Catch points if you got it after it was shaken off the truss?

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Can't get Catch points if you don't get Truss points--and if it's a Shake instead of a Truss, no Truss points are awarded.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

So...sounds like we would all be better off designing our robots so they CAN'T catch. Too big a risk for infrequent 10 pt gain verses risk of 100 pt penalty or worse? I can just see big basket fold outs waiting innocently for their partner to lob their ball over the truss and their opponents misfire bounces right in. I think the penalty is too extreme for an incidental event like an unintentional catch of your opponents ball...it would seem more fair to allow a no harm clause if the catching robot immediately returns the ball to the opposing alliance.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

While I do agree that you would want to keep your partner as far away as possible to stop them from incurring such large penalties, you cannot just go around e-stopping teams for stuff like that because one it can damage their robot and two only the team controlling the robot or the FTA has the right to hit a teams e-stop. If it becomes an issue during the match you should discuss it with that team and tell them to stay out of the way for the remainder of the match. If it seems intentional that they are incurring penalties talk to the field officials about it.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Agreed. E-stopping (or trying to e-stop) another team's robot seems to me like a nuclear option.

I know teams like to win, but common courtesy is another thing.

That being said, I sincerely doubt anyone would actually do this-- aside from the moral aspect, it may also be a tad difficult to get at your parters' e-stop buttons, considering they aren't in your alliance station.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I think in this case (unintentionally catching a ball), you should be just fine - as long as you get rid of it as quickly as physically possible.

That being said, your point is still valid since as the rules are written, you would be carrying an opponents ball and could, in theory, be assessed a technical foul according to G12.

I'd imagine that this would be a fanstastic Driver's Meeting question at each event assuming that the Manual hasn't been upadated by then. I think the head ref would more than likely rule no tech foul - assuming that the catch was unintentional (weird bounce, shot angle is off, etc) and the robot obviously got rid of the ball as quickly as they could.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

First off I'm not advocating this strategy, I just think FIRST needs to fix a hole they just opened up.

Possessed balls don't count as part of the robot otherwise a lot of robots will break the height restriction and the extension restriction.

That means that an alliance could get a ball "stuck" on the end of their goalie's 6" blocking device and now have a 25" wide blocking device in front of their opponents goal.

This is obviously not in the spirit of the rules but from my interruption of the rules currently legal. Strategic use of the new dead ball rule should be a Red card or technical foul.

Overall FIRST put a very nice solution to a potential big problem in the flow of the game.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

How is 36 square inches of anything going to hold a ball rigidly enough to deflect another ball? I really, really don't see this happening.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

This is FIRST. Anything can happen.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I have learned not to count a lot of things out in FRC. I didn't think a sub 10 sec climb was possible last year but the Poofs proved that to be incorrect. I can conceive of a strong enough vacuum system that could do this.

It definitely wasn't within the intentions of the GDC to originally allow this and it should be prohibited unless that's how they want the game to be played. The rules shouldn't even allow teams to try it.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I think the trade off of not scoring any points is worth a 25" diameter blocking device.

Additionally, does a dead ball score the base amount for being scored through the alliance goals?

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I saw a video the other day of a team holding a ball with a shop vac. It seemed pretty stable to me, and wouldn't violate the 6" diameter cylinder rule. Also, a 6" diameter cylinder isn't 36 square inches in cross section. That would be the area for a square cross section 6" per side, and as the diagonal of such a square would be longer than 6", it would be illegal per R3. The largest cross section available is about 28 inches, per the area formulae for a circle, pi*r^2.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

I feel sorry for the refs.
This is a tough task and will require much interpretation.

Rather than shaking the truss, I'll bet that we see 12' PVC poles on each side of each field. They will become the nets of 2014.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Repeat in your best Boris and Natasha voice:

"Head referee strong like moose."

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

if the alliance's ball gets stuck on the truss, is there a penalty?:confused:

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

This is a totally different scenario. Basic math could be done to show that a system using even just a few CIM motors would be able to lift quickly enough for a ten second climb. This is something you essentially can objectively prove *is* possible. The question mark was whether or not a team could tune a system to transition between layers smoothly and quickly.

Okay, so 27*pi square inches. I've seen vacuum setups work okay, but I haven't seen any using a 6" diameter circle that are strong enough to deflect a ball being shot into it. And honestly, if someone gets a ball up there onto their scoring mechanism *and* wastes the alliance's "dead ball" card on their blocker, I think they've earned the right to attempt to block a shot. I'd be more inclined to believe a 12" diameter suction cup with a well designed, high powered impeller could do it, but I don't see it here.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

It does shake off, the GDC tested it before making that the official way to remove a stuck ball.

Personally I was expecting them to send a piece of pipe to knock it off.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

Does anyone know if the GDC reads CD? (fun with acronyms)
I have an idea for signaling a dead ball, which is apparently still being discussed. Basically, the alliance currently possesing the ball can give the signal as soon as they believe it is dead. Alternatively, if the team is holding on to it strategically (to tank rankings), both alliance partners can give the signal and overrule the team holding the ball. Possibly something different for Elims, to give alliance captain more power. You would hope this would never be the case in Elims, but you never know.

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

They read CD all right. They just don't necessarily say anything about it, and rarely if ever post anything here. (I'm not even sure they have logins, in most cases--though I'm pretty sure some of them have older ones if they really need to use them.)

Re: Team UPDATE - 2014-01-10
 

By definition of a CATCH, I believe if you stop moving your robot (as in on the x/y plane that is the field, which is considered HOLDING) and quickly get it out of your robot (therefore not shielding it inside your machine, or TRAPPING it) and as long as they don't consider your attempt to get the ball out of your machine as LAUNCHING, it would be legal, right?

I perused the Q&A and didn't see a question about it. I might submit it myself tomorrow if no one does by then.