Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I am excited to see Aerial Assist played on the field this year. It's very cool that the GDC chose a new gameplay mechanic to try out.

At the same time, I am worried that only 1 ball per alliance has the real potential to breed ill will. FRC teams for the most part do not build robots that are good at scoring points. (2011 OPR distribution) Having watched many FRC matches, if I had a penny for every second I've seen a robot try to acquire a game piece and come up empty, I would be a rich man. Let's say you're on an alliance with two BLTs and one perennial powerhouse. If the BLTs can't POSSESS the ball well, chances are giving your powerhouse exclusive access to the ball will score the most points. But if the BLTs have mechanisms they want to try/show off, this game plan is obviously not going to fly with them. An additional factor is the damage done if a ball gets stuck in a faulty mechanism.

There are always some threads every year where people complain about coaching. Given that there is only one ball per alliance in teleop and scoring points actually requires coordination, the personalities and persuasive skills of the drive team will be critical. I can only imagine that these threads will be more frequent and more heated.

On top of this, there is a non-negligible portion of people involved with FRC that already hold ill will against high performing robots and their for a variety of reasons. This opinion is not held by many people active on CD, but you don't have to look far at an event to find people that feel this way. Might this get worse if they perceive a team as being ballhogs?

The GDC's solution was to make ASSISTS the secondary sort, which alleviates some of this problem. Is it enough? Am I worried about nothing?

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Assists are the secondary sort (after WLT), which makes them the first tiebreaker. That makes them extremely important.

I'm also worried about animosity this game is going to create between teams.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Was waiting for someone to start this thread.

I am worried as well. We plan on using our scouting database to back up our proposed strategies during qualification matches, but it doesn't negate the fact that we will be asking other teams to sacrifice things like shooting into the 10 point goal and throwing over the truss in order to allow us to.

We plan to do most of the "heavy lifting" to accomplish our in-match objectives. In fact, we would prefer a box-on-wheels robot that plays into our strategy than a mediocre team that takes 5 seconds to pick up the ball and pass it to us. When you're thinking about things like that day 1, it doesn't look good...

As a coach of a moderately successful team, I think the burden of responsibility will fall on me and my students/mentors to reach out more than ever, both before and at events. I hope that goodwill extended off the field will be returned on the field.

One can dream, right? :rolleyes:

-Mike

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Ian I too share your feelings.

I think we all can see how the game will be played at the highest level but the reality is that at the lowest level the game will be extremely boring to watch and if you have one good robot on an alliance with two robots who can do very little issues will come up.

I'm really stuck as to how a/our team would carry out a match on both sides of the spectrum. All of our teams have the potential to be a high caliber scoring robot but looking over past years of FRC it is easy to see that most teams that compete will not perform to such a high level.

For me I don't want to go into a match steam rolling my partners (if we have a great robot) and I don't want to be the one getting steam rolled (if we have a not so great robot). Then again I know we have a match to win and its not right for an a good team (either us or a better robot on our alliance) to get screwed because we have to share the one ball we get with our partners. I'm not looking forward to any scenarios where "ball fights" occur.

This will be one of those games where at really good events the eliminations will be exciting to watch but at early/bad events I'm going to have to say it will be a miss for FIRST.

Its one of those "pie in the sky" games. It would be great if Aerial Assist is played at that level but the reality is it won't.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Thank you. I definitely perceive this as a problem in this game. Teams tend to be irrational about showing off their capabilities, and the strategic reality of not letting some teams get at the ball cannot be denied. There will be a lot of hurt feelings in this game, when teams will be asked to play a secondary role (defense, simple ball possession) in lieu of trying out their sub-par mechanisms.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Do keep in mind that a robot that can do nothing but drive can still assist and score. Three boxes on wheels can score 31 points per cycle; two boxes and one robot that can throw but not accurately enough to score can score 41 points per cycle.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Most teams won't build that robot though. Most will try to build a mechanism for intaking and shooting balls. Unfortunately, most of these won't work (if if they work, not well), and these teams still will want to try out their mechanisms in the match.

If the teams that should build a box on wheels all build a box on wheels, this wouldn't be an issue.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

The key for teams will be to make sure things do not get personal. Yes, this is hard. Have scouting data with you when you are making your pre-match strategy.

Our team started doing this after 2012 when we were at championships and we were negotiating with another team on our alliance about the coop bridge. We wanted to balance but so did they and they had their scouting data to show that they were better at it. We let them balance it and they got it done no problem.

Sure, your first match or two will be very tough especially in the early weeks. If you can show the numbers though I think most teams will be reasonable enough to recognize that they have a role to play to help the alliance.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Well, sort of. If teams build a solid drivetrain and then fail at the upper mechanical work, they should have a box on wheels to fall back on. (We've been in that boat several times in the past ten years; do not plan on being in that shape this year!)

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I don't really like this statement, but it is really true in a sad way. Although really no team thinks they "should" build a box on wheels, many lack the resources to build anything else that is effective. Coming from one of those teams, it really hurts to know that whatever we build may not be allowed to compete simply because we would be better off using our robot as a rolling brick. However, that is the reality of the game, a game in which it is too risky to let the less privileged teams hold the ball.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Honestly, most teams that have been around through a few years and have drive coaches and/or mentors who have been through a few seasons will be able to see past the need to constantly show off what their robot can do and see the bigger picture. I do forsee some matches at each regional and champs to have a little bit of heat between teams, but I think most will rather win the match and forgo completely showing off their capabilities if it means a higher W/L ratio.(And a higher ranking) Most teams will know "how to play the game" in qualifications.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Make sure your drivetrain is nails and that your drivers know how to drive it. Defense will be big this year; and like I said, even boxes on wheels can help an alliance gain mucho points just by being able to push a ball in a direction--and they can score it in the lower goal.

That way, if your upper mechanical systems are all utter, catastrophic failures, you can still be a solid addition to an alliance.

(This advice goes for every year of FIRST I've ever seen, by the way. Drivetrain first; then everything else.)

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a robot "possess" a ball by simply herding it? The simplest robot has the potential to add 10-points to each scoring cycle just by bumping a ball from zone 1 to zone 2. A good team should know how to make the best of the situation if they are allied with 1 or even 2, um... let's say "learning teams."

As we go through the quals, there will be occasions of 3 weak teams on an alliance, it always happens, and we were once one of those weak teams, and I'll tell ya: we expected to be thrashed by the powerhouses, and it made us want to be like them.

Back then we were most impressed by those teams that took it is stride that our team was actually a liability to their alliance at a time when they were battling for top 8 placement. The best teams came to us and shared their knowledge of the game, they saw how our hack-bot could work best with them, and we did what we could to follow their strategy.

Ill will can and should be avoided by both the strong, weak and mediocre teams. I don't see why this year would cause any more than others.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

We've pretty well recognized that what are called assists are actually possessions and unlike the usual sports understanding of an assist. That means the assisting in Aerial Assist should be taking place off the field. Starting NOW. Check your tournament rosters. Which teams would you guess to be in position to pick alliances? Contact those teams (NOW) and ask them what sort of robot will they be looking for. Build that robot. Ask for help if you think you need it.

I'm already tired of hearing how "top tier" teams will be starved for alliance partners due to some perception of lesser competence among the general FRC team population. If you have any aspiration to be a top tier team this year, you must consider what sort of talent will be available to help you get there THIS YEAR. Get busy making sure it will be around. There is not a lot of time left.

You do know how to find out which teams will be at your tournament(s), don't you?

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Thank you for raising this topic Ian.
(And also thank you for the twentyfour blog - we started one of our strategy discussions this year with the question "What would Plowie do?". This is going to be Plowie's year!)
This is a game of possession and ball control followed by defense, so it's a bit disappointing yet unsurprising to see it apparently* perceived as a game of sitting unmolested in your scoring zone lobbing exercise balls 8 feet into the air.

Accusations of "ballhogging" is a legitimate concern. But the problems may start even earlier when teams go to pre-load balls into robots which didn't move in their previous match. Unfortunately I expect some animated exchanges in the queuing line this year.

* Statement based on subjective observation of CD activity

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it seems like a really good way to create some animosity if even one party isn't being cooperative, but on the other hand, it also forces higher-capability teams to think more about their alliance partners. It's important to remember that highly competitively successful teams make up a tiny percentage of FIRST teams-- does it competitively suck to know that your success in a match may be tied to your luck in match assignment? Yes, of course! But also remember that this is how 90% of FIRST teams experience a regional.

That being said, I do think that, from the perspective of "I want to see the best matches possible," it's kind of annoying that a little bit of pure dumb misfortune could land some otherwise potentially successful teams playing sub-optimal strategies because they remembered the key to working in a team: compromise.

Ultimately though, at the end of the day, I don't really (shocker) care all that much whether there's a highly focused robotics competition happening at every regional. If other people are still walking away inspired, it's all fine with me. Personally, I would find it incredibly inspiring if a highly-capable team helped a less capable one both show off their mechanisms and still scrape by with a win.

As to whether our theoretical low capability team should just accept the strategy of the elite team, I don't think it's that cut and dry. Just like there's more to FRC than showing off your robot, there's also more to FRC than winning matches. Some teams have priorities other than winning matches. They aren't less or more right than a team has the goal of winning the tournament.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

It is a little sad to me that it comes to this. I know that if my team was a rookie team, or if we lacked the resources to build a highly effective robot, I would be disappointed if we were asked to stay away from the ball and play defense. I wish that the powerhouse teams would try to help the less competitive teams by showing them how to improve their robots and strategies rather then insisting they can't test their systems. Yeah, this is a competition, but it's about inspiring and helping others.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Teams do, but there is only so much teams can do during competition to raise the level of competition of other teams.

Also, if you were a team that didnt build a highly effective robot, with there being only 1 ball per alliance and robot ability/time really decides the score of the match even 1 robot on an alliance that is out of tune or uncapable of keeping up with the others would be detrimental to winning a match if playing offense; therefore, it would be better for all 3 teams if it played defense. I would hope teams, rookies or veterans, would be able to see that.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

There is more than one way to tip the score differential in your favor. Some prefer all-out offense, scoring lots of points. Others prefer all-out defense, preventing points from being scored. The best strategy, of course, is a mixture of offense and defense.

If you can't play offense because of X, then I HIGHLY encourage spending lots of time practicing and playing shutdown defense. I could see picking a team that could consistently and legally prevent the ball from going to the scoring side of the truss, particularly as a 2nd pick, regardless of offensive capability (though opponents might be pretty offended :p ).

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Exactly.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

In 2012 it was pretty common for an alliance to have a robot that chased around the same ball for half a match. This reduces the alliance's score by roughly: 1/3*1/2=1/6. That's not good, but the match can still be competitive. On the other hand, since there's only one ball this year chasing it for half a match might reduce the alliance's score by 50%. When that happens this year I would expect the alliance to almost always lose.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

When I coached last year, I let teams know that I knew what I was doing, and that all I wanted to do was to help them during the match, and to help them win. I calmly talked to the students about strategy and made them understand what had to be done, so they were more enthusiastic about what will be done to win the match, rather than what they really wanted to do. If a team wants to test out a system, they can certainly do so if our scouting data predicts a high chance of winning the match in the first place. If not, there is a reason for practice fields.

It takes some communication skills and good body language to let others understand that you're not being dominant, but being a leader. If a team has to give up something they want to do, they need to understand that every decision in strategy is done for the good of the alliance. I just ask them "do you want all of us to get these seeding points?" and they usually agree to a strategy that wins the match, whatever it may be. Using strategy mats or boards to make strategies and plans visible and clear and can also help quell any disagreements. See my post on strategy mats if you want one. IT'S FREE!!!!!

Once students and mentors see the plan laid out, and how it will work, there is generally no rejection, and breaking of the original plan while on the field. But this has happened in the past, where teams say they agree to a strategy pre-match, but do something else for no good reason, and ruin the match. I never had problems with alliance members challenging what the plans should be, because everyone participates in making the strategy, and coaches will make compromises if they see a reason to trust me (I rely on my drive team experience), and that my role is to be a leader, not a boss.

This is something that I need to teach to the coach for our drive team this year, since I will not be coaching for this season.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Regardless of how well you plan before a match, it does often boil down to whether a team is able to keep up with the rest of the alliance. Yes FIRST is about inspiring, but on the field, it's a competition. And in this competition, it's the alliance that wins regionals, not individual teams. So it comes down to how your alliance plays each match, for better or for worse.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Looking at the title of this thread, I started thinking about a different (and unthinkable?) scenario being discussed, similar to the co-op bridge in 2012. Glad we're not discussing it, and I hope the discussion is never needed.


Back in 2008 there weren't enough game pieces to go around. There were certain teams (like mine :( ) that picked a wrong strategy for the game and ended up building a sub-par robot. During regional competitions, it was a rare occurrence to be paired with two robots that were significantly better than average. This meant that the best robot got a ball, and the other two shared.

During the championship event, it was a rare enough occurrence to have two below average robots on an alliance. Ultimately, teams like mine tended to be deferential to the other two - which is to say that we didn't go after a game piece until we were told we should by another team.

From experience, I can say that there will be plenty of opportunities to demonstrate your abilities. My team catapulted the trackball several times that season. If you don't think your robot is good enough to pick or be picked in the first round, your offensive abilities likely won't be the only reason you would get picked for elimination. One thing that is guaranteed is those picking will remember uncooperative teams and bad attitudes. If you do your best to be a team player, you will do better than you would otherwise do.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I like to think that build season and off season is for building character, and competition season is for getting wins. Of course, winning is not the absolute most important thing, but it's the cherry on top. Getting the most out of FIRST does not require winning, but what team in their right mind builds a robot designed for losing?

This is the kind of conversation a crazy team like this would have:

Student 1: "Hey, let's make this robot have no wheels, and no scoring mechanism"
Student 2:"why?"
Mentor: "Well, it's not all about winning!"
Rookie Student: "This is so uninspiring... I'm joining 1114"

My point is, that everyone builds a robot with the intent that their robot will score as many points as possible to win, but what is just as good as your own robot contributing to the alliance win is another alliance robot contributing to the win. You get the same seeding points for whatever amount of participation in the match. I would be grateful for that, even if my team didn't do what we wanted.

We willingly did this at the 2013 Colorado Regional. We were the number one seeded alliance, and chose 2169, King TeC, the best cross field shooter in FIRST as our alliance partner, who I believe was either in second or third seed. But anyway, our robot was designed to shoot, and although it did well doing that, and the students put their blood, sweat, and tears into making a really good shooter, we understood that King TeC's was even better. At our matches, we played defense with our other alliance member 2259 1/4 Twenties, to keep away blocker robots. We broke 200 points a few matches, and we were glad to have our wins, even though our robot didn't contribute to the actual disk scoring, but we defended to keep 2169 safe to shoot cross court. Were we disappointed that we didn't do what our robot was designed to do? No, because we did it for the win, and we dominated eliminations because of it.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

If such a situation occurred in Aerial Assist (where an ineffective team deliberately hogged a ball for half the match just to prove that their design and/or driving was poor), that would be the case of the weaker team bringing "Ill Will" upon the game. Such an attitude is just as offensive as a strong team eschewing any interaction from a weak team simply to avoid the possibility of that weak team from disturbing the scoring drive.

As I implied before, the truly great team will be able to use anything that moves to their advantage. If a team has built a weak-bot, they should acknowledge that, and do the best they can with it. If they can't shoot, and their alliance partner knows it, they should be prepared to take the advice of the de facto leader of the alliance.

This is a zone game. In any qual match-up, a non-shooting robot can be an effective zone 1 or 2 bot. For example, Bot 1 bumps the ball into the white zone. Bot 2 bumps the ball twice (herding) in the white zone, Bot 3 takes the ball and scores.

If, on the other hand, the above Bot 1 thinks it deserves to keep the ball, and sloshes it around for 90 seconds without doing anything, that team is rejecting the spirit and written intent of the game. Well before that point, a strong-bot would and should intercept the ball and score it. If that team can't do so, then it is not as strong as they think they might be.

In any case, this will be a huge year for scouting, I think everyone saw that very early. The standings will have almost no bearing on the effectiveness of the robots being picked; an alliance will need to find robots that are strong for each zone. If a hack-bot causes a strong team to lose in the quals, knocking them out of the top 8, or even back into the 20's,,, well you know the rest.

Our team has clawed it's way past the middle, but we are still in awe of the superteams out there. We still find them inspiring. Stay gracious everyone!

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

This is the main reason I suggested that teams aspiring to win tournaments need to start now to raise the level of competition at their upcoming tournaments. Teams that have lower estimates of their abilities need to seek help, AKA offer the opportunity for other teams to help.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I am glad we have started this thread early because I have also been worried about the single game piece in the game causing a ridiculous amount of behind the scenes human anger and drama. FIRST seems to think this game is played by robots and is not taking into account the human nature teleoperating them.

For instance, lets take a suboptimal team's perspective. We have spent minimum $9000 to compete in this regional. We have spent the same six weeks of late nights, hard work and stress as any other team out there and here comes a team that tells us to play defense only. Sure my mechanism is slow and janky but it does allow us to score once a round. My student's parents are out in the crowd and I want to show off what I have been putting the late nights working on off. To be able to win I cant do that. 50% of the teams at the regional are in this situation. In the past there were other game pieces to play, now there aren't.

I dont even want to start the things that teams will do as the seeding starts to close and they start to realize that they can break up traditional power house teams by simply throwing a game by goofing around with the one game piece. Ill will everywhere indeed.

I predict that one of the lessons learned in the First game design handbook after this year will be no more games with a single game piece. Humans are competitive and they are also justified in their desire to play the ball after sinking so many resources into their robot. The behind the scenes is going to be more high strung then usual this year and that is saying something considering how high strung it is to begin with.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

This is (at risk of perpetuating a quite loaded and vague phrase) against the spirit of FIRST.

FIRST is about pushing your boundaries and learning. If the teams who "should build a box on wheels" build a box on wheels every year, then they'll never learn how to do better. Trying new things is one of the premiere things that makes FIRST fun. If I were on a team that stuck to building a box on wheels every year, I would get bored very quickly.

So cut out your elitism.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Testing out systems is what the practice field is for

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Dude, at some point teams just need to step it up themselves. You see "top tier" teams building the robots they do at the levels they do because they are able to put their heart and souls into them. If you see them having to gout out to 2, 3, 4, etc.. teams to help them actually get a half competitive robot, then you will drop the total competitiveness of everyone.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

if any one has a idea on the scouting can you please share it because I am completely lost in this arena. :confused: :]

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

The problem there is that some teams are simply incapable of building a half-competitive robot without help. Our team consists of fifteen people, two hand drills, two bladeless hacksaws, a ratchet set, a cutoff saw, and a virtually nonexistent budget. I challenge any "competitive" team to try to build even their most simple mechanism with those tools, and 80-90% of the students building it having never picked up a screwdriver in their lives, and then tell us that those teams are capable of lifting themselves up without outside intervention. Without help from another team, it's not going to happen in many cases.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Not with that attitude. Other teams help other teams(more unfortunate than themselves or not) all the time. But teams that build amazing machines cant send half a build team to help a less fortunate team for an entire build season to make sure they can move and gather a ball for a regional/competition.

And yes, I've seen teams with the minimalist of tools and building in garages build elimination caliber robots.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

We built out of a mentor's garage for a few years till 2012.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

We still build out of a mentor's garage:)

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

You make a good point and I can understand your position, but I would encourage all teams that would be in this situation to realize that the point of the game is not just to shoot. This game is about passing between robots. If a team spent 6 weeks to make a sub par shooting device, then they have not spent the build season wisely.

A pass/receive mechanism is much simpler, and ultimately worth more points. Any robot that spends their build season focused on a 50% successful catching mechanism should see eliminations, repeatedly.

I would venture to say that all strong teams will be looking to maximize the the capabilities of all their alliance partners.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

One thing that indefinitely plagues our team, and many others, is ambition. While not inherently bad in and off itself, to much can cap logistics and can lead to a team trying to do it all, especially the lower class teams, like my own. many people fail to see the big picture in first competitions, I have been a voice of reason within my team so that when my team says lets shoot and feed well when we have no experience except for one very poor year that ended up being simply a robot that could drive. I believe while yes teams will try to do it all, and many fail, soon they will realize strategic advantages. If you have three box on wheel robots against three high end teams, they can still make a difference, no they won't win, but there is only one ball? I think as a regional progresses the maturity of the newer teams will too, teams will soon learn that they can't win if they don't work together, and the teams that believe they have something to prove and don't care of their alliances agendas, they will fall behind and eventually learn. So while in the beginning there will be some negative things happen, over all I believe by the end of the season the people of FIRST will have a new attitude towards working together, one for the better. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats just how I see it.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

In describing this game to a fellow teacher who has followed FIRST and our games for the past 5 years his first comment was, 'Hmm, finally getting back to gracious professionalism and teamwork are they?'

This game is all about team work between alliance partners. I agree with BedHed and the other posters regarding this game being all about strategy. We are one of those 'mid-level' teams who usually make it into the top 12 - 15 at our regional and into quals but never seem to make it to finals. We know that we are our own limitator in terms of design, ideas, etc. We fully recognize the importance of strategy in all our games both on the field and off and it is because of that willingness to do what is necessary for the alliance that we have both hurt ourselves and helped ourselves over the years (hurt because we forfeited ranking points to play a particular role for an alliance strategy and helped because teams knew that we would do whatever was best for a strategy regardless of what we 'wanted to show off').

I think that is what the GDC is really shooting for this year without calling it co-opertition. This game is all about working together to complete a goal and serves to (hopefully) teach our rookies as well as remind some of our veterans how to effectively strategize with other teams.

As far as 'ill will', let me state that we are not perfect, either my team or myself, but after 7 years of FIRST I believe that the game is the game and how you handle your emotions about match outcomes is an indicator not of how much you care about FIRST and your robot but instead an indicator of your emotional maturity and ability to see yourself and your robot rationally and realistically. And as far as this game goes...alliance strategy has never been more important.

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tl;dr

Actually, it is Drivetrain First, Driver Practice Second, then everything else.

A drive team should be able to do the routine maneuvering routinely, and drive that robot wherever they need to with almost trivial ease. It needs to be second-nature. Then they can focus on accomplishing the task that is the reason for the driving, not the driving itself.


.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I dont worry about motion-only bots, or highly capable bots. I am most concerned with pairings that involve a mediocre throwing bot that is in love with their engineering. If they have invest sweat equity in the a throwing solution that is less than 50% accurate, how do we convince them that we can score more points going for the low goal?

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

You put them on truss launcher duty. You don't have to be accurate to get those points. Win-win--as long as someone can corral the ball after it goes over!

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In keeping with the original poster's theme I agree very strongly with BedHed and rsegrest. Although this game is about the abilities of the individual robots, I'd bet a paycheck that a red alliance of average/poor bots could and will beat a blue alliance of good/very good bots this year specifically because of strategy. To be successful that strategy session necessarily needs to take place prior to the match and the teams need to adhere to it.
Yes, elite bots will love to strut their stuff (as would most team, including ours), but they can be defeated this year by a minimum of defense by one or two opponents. This would force the single playing piece (ball) to be tied up. The assist component of the scoring forces you to utilize allies.
I actually think that this year's game is "the great equalizer". Elite teams can shine--and they will, but rookie and poorly supported teams can do quite well with the plethora of info. out there (here) with even the simplest of tools. In fact, just making a bot that can take-in and hand-off a ball is a very valuable asset--especially if it does it quickly. They would be a definite 3rd choice in the elimination rounds.
Finally, if a very weak ball handler has a decent drive system and can tie up the opponents and prevent them from scoring, each point they prevent is just as valuable as the points his allies do score! In fact, they might be even more valuable. If he prevents 60 points in the time that his allies score only 10, his alliance is +10 for that given time period.

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That can be said for any game that FIRST has had. Also, his team would be +70 for that cycle period.

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When a robot was chasing the same ball for half a match in 2012 it wasn't because it was planned that way. The driver just couldn't get the intake to work quite right, and always thought that if he just tried for a couple more seconds he would get it.

Similarly, I expect that this year there will be teams failing to pick up the ball for extended periods of time, and not because the drivers want to do poorly. Sure, you could go steal the ball from your partner, but don't expect them to like it. If they didn't think that they were going to get the ball they wouldn't still be trying to pick it up.

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On the side about Showing off a team's robot:
If it is between Winning - ranking 15th and losing -ranking 25th, if the match allows our team to show off the full potential of the robot, we will take the loss (not trying to be mean here).

As captain and head of drive team it isn't even my decision, I present the situation to the team in the Pits and allowed people to talk in front of everyone (sorta a debate) and the team essentially votes on our strategy, it becomes evident they want to be in the finals (who doesn't?).

Last Year, we lost our last match to show off our climbing to the 3rd tier even though 1 of our alliance partners was in the top few seeds and wanted us to drive around on defense only and go for 10 point hang.
We were specifically chosen for the finals just because of our 30 point hang. (our alliance said after choosing us, from the start, make that 30 point hang happen).

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

There are some valid concerns in this thread, and I do hope the alliance-dependent nature of the game doesn't bring out an uglier side to some of the participants. I think we'll have to wait and see.

However, a lot of posts here to the tune of "less-capable teams ought to just get out of the way" really irk me. FIRST is about inspiration. How "inspired" do you think members of those teams would feel reading some of the posts earlier in this thread? If you are on a successful team, then that is a great thing and you should take full advantage of it. But the program does not only exist to serve you and your interests. I find it extremely disheartening to see an attitude of dismissal (or even outright scorn) towards teams that arguably have the most to gain from FRC.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I've never understood the aversion to doing a box on wheels or similarly simple robot. 179 made Einstein in 2007 with a robot only capable of scoring inner tubes on the bottom row. 842 consistently captained alliances in the elimination rounds at the Arizona regional in 2005-2007 by building robots that could only score the 1 point or low goal challenge but then had a solid drive train and shut down defense. We took note of that and built a simple low scoring lap bot in 2008, and until last year that is the robot that broke down the least of any I've worked on in the last 10 years.

Building a robot that never breaks down and performs consistently is more impressive than building a hardest scoring challenge mechanism that works once a match a best, imo.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

From a team member's perspective, I am very glad that I won't be on the drive team this year, because dealing with sticky situations like those proposed in this thread sounds like it could lead to some pretty hard dilemmas.

From someone that likes watching human behavior, I think it's going to be super interesting to see how teams adapt to the emphasis on cooperation and the conflicts that will inevitable occur at least a few times this year. I'll probably hang out in the pits for the sole reason of watching pre-match strategy sessions :yikes:

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Or 148 in 2008 as well.

Really, you can argue both sides, and there's never one right or a wrong answer. It's going to be dependent on how each team works it out as situations will vary. It depends on what the motives and goals of the team are.

Your goal can be to demonstrate all abilities of your robot, and there's absolutely nothing wrong there.

Your goal can be to sacrifice that if it means a higher probability of winning the match, and there's nothing wrong there either.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I'd argue that teams don't have a right to lose a match just because they decide it's to their advantage to show off. If these matches were 1v1, sure that would be fine. You'd only be hurting yourself. Of course, it doesn't work that way aren't. That team, which might just barely make the top 8 if they win this match? You're screwing them over if you lose this match. The other member, which might see their first win of a long, hard season this match? You'll be hurting them too. Like it or not, teams have some obligation to their alliance partners.

I can tell you for a fact that teams that decide to show off their robot and cripple their alliance are not going to be teams we'd like to work with for eliminations. A box on wheels (well, traction wheels) that can work with their alliance partners is exactly what you want as a third pick for this game. You don't want a robot that's a mediocre shooter, you want one that's a beastly inbounder and a great defensive bot.

Ultimately, the decision to hurt your own alliance for your own potential gain isn't just self-serving, it's the wrong way to achieve your goal. If your shooter is inaccurate and it takes you 40 seconds to pick up a ball, you won't get chosen for those capabilities, even if you demonstrate them at your alliances expense. You will get chosen for showing off your awesome drivetrain, defense and assist capabilities, which are going to help your alliance anyway.

If you're going to hurt your own alliance, don't shoot yourself in the foot while doing it.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Right, I agree, but what I'm saying is that from the point of view of the team that chooses to showcase rather than fill a role they believe that's right, and you'll have a hard time convincing them otherwise. Likewise can be said about the alternate case.

Personally, I think winning by fulfilling the alliance requirements is better, but that's just my opinion.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

In 2008, there were 3 robots and 2 balls, and there were still robots on the same alliance fighting over the ball, because people's scouting data sucked, and egos were too big. We were once partnered with a team who insisted we should just make laps, because they could make 3 (!) hurdles.... During match play, they literally stole the ball from our posession. Yes, they stole it from their own partner, and we could not score it all match while they fumbled around with it. Their arrogance and lack of data cost us that match, when we regularly made 6-7 hurdles in every match prior and thereafter.

To me, part of gracious professionalism in being on an alliance with a team who is clearly better than you is defaulting to the better team's plan, for the benefit of the whole alliance.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I do not think anyone in this thread feels that teams building robots that can't score many points should stop participating in FRC. Instead, they feel that these teams should build the best robot they can with their skills at this point in time. Most of the time, this ideal robot is much more limited in scope than the robot these teams bring to the event.

You can always point back to Karthik's "it is better to be a 10 at one thing than a 5 at two things." There are absolutely teams in FRC with very little build space, very few tools, and very little knowledge of how FRC works. For those teams, the best thing for the team is to build a solid kitbot with maybe a very simple manipulator, teach everyone on your team that basic level of skill, and drive the snot out of it. Then they can come back the following year and build upon those skills to do something better.

1778 has mostly rookie members. This week we were teaching kids the difference between a regular wrench and an allen key, and I think that's awesome. We aren't shooting. We're gonna be great at picking up off the floor and passing, and maybe catch if we have time left over. Would it be cool to have a whiz-bang shooter? Of course. Could we build a shooter? Sure. But we'd much rather be a 10 at one thing than a 5 at two things. It is much more important to us that we train the kids so next year so our team can be prepared to build an even better robot while we mentors have even more opportunities to sit around and drink coffee. We also recognize the importance of driver practice.

FRC for a four year student is a marathon disguises as four sprints. I'd much rather win the marathon than a sprint.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

My take on some of this:

If the ALLIANCE agrees on a strategy, and nothing happens to disrupt the strategy, then the TEAMS on the alliance need to stick to the strategy. Of course, if something happens to disrupt the strategy, all bets are off.

In my opinion, any alliance partner who cannot stick to the alliance strategy and doesn't have a good explanation (such as heavy defense altering the strategy, or a broken robot--showing off is not a good explanation if it wasn't brought up in the strategy meeting) should be off of the other alliance partners' picklists, on the spot. Ditto for any team that just can't work well with their alliance partners' drive teams. Again, that's only my opinion; the scouts on my team probably have a different one, and I won't even try to get into what scouts/strategists on other teams think, because there's no way of knowing.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Now, I'm no Car Nack, but if I were, I would predict that at least 2/12 teams on Einstein have no way of throwing the ball. They have super fast "assist" mechanisms and a killer drivetrain and driver, that's able to play some awesome shutdown defense. Good on you for realizing your limitations and building a robot that will dominate what it's intended to do!

Edit: I just found out about the 4 team alliances at champs, this clearly changes my prediction, but I'm not sure what it should be changed to yet... same idea though

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Ill will goes both ways and those team that sabotage strategies to go off and do their won thing will found themselves off lists very quickly and before someone goes throwing around GP like a righteously wagged finger of justice just remember: you signed up for a competition with the intention of doing your best not to drag other teams down to the bottom of the standings with you because you can't be bothered.
In the three team alliance era there is a place for teams who do one thing a do it well so long as they are willing to be honest with themselves and their alliance partner of what they can and cannot do. But if you go off freelancing just don't go expecting a pat on the back and a "that's ok". Sometimes the best love you can give teams is tough love and let them know there are consequences to your actions.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Historically, 1551 has been inconsistent with our ability to score, but since our third year we've always built the absolute best, no-holds-barred drive train we possibly can. There have been years where we've been relegated to defense only because of our own inability to score (or we just couldn't score fast enough, or reliably enough)--and most of those years we made the elimination tournament.

Defense should have been huge last year; I watched so many streamed matches where I was frustrated by teams that couldn't score well enough to change the outcome, who didn't play defense instead, where that could have made the difference in the match.

Defense should be monstrously huge this year, but probably won't be as big as it should be for some teams/alliances.

The things that teams can do to avoid any sort of ill will whatsoever are pretty simple:

1. Be brutally honest with yourselves and your alliance partners about your capabilities--not what you hoped/planned to be able to do, not what you think you might be able to do because of what you changed after last match, but what you know you can do reliably.
2. Use those capabilities to determine your strategy for a match.
3. Play that strategy to the best of your abilities.
4. Play every match to win.

A brick on wheels is usually a defense-only robot, but this year that's simply not true. If you can ram a ball in a given direction, you can assist and you can score in the low goal.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

50%? I dunno, sounds pretty unreliable to me.

Exactly what I want to say. Thanks Ian!

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

This is a hard thing to talk about with an alliance, and I think that this mentality of "we have to show off our robot's new functionality" has been in FIRST games for a long time.

There are plenty of examples (probably for every regional) where teams compromise the total alliance strategy for the ability to show off a function that was not previously working, and might still not work.

There is a significant advantage to showing a mechanism working in a match, and certainly there is something to be said for a mechanism that works on the field during a match, than just a mechanism that works while you are in a controlled environment. The alternative is a much less satisfactory demonstration a robot's capability is demonstrating in the pits/practice field, because matches are played on the competition field, not the pits/practice field. Just because you show this function, doesn't mean that you will get picked. Just because you try to do it during the match, doesn't mean that it will actually work.

Just be aware of the reputation that you give to these teams that you essentially decide to not work with. Even if these other two teams aren't in a picking position for this regional, maybe they will be next regional. Perhaps it's not even this year that they are going to pick you, but next year, or the year after. Stories spread, people remember. (You can even see it in this thread, all the examples of "that one team that") Reputations stay for a long time, even if you may have the best intentions later. If it comes down to you and another team in the scouting meeting, you can probably bet that they will be picking the other team.

Just be very careful about doing something for a somewhat small gain, that could affect your team's image for several years to come.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

This is an opportunity to direct greater focus on gracious professionalism. And for goodness sakes, no coaches or mentors on the drive teams, please.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

The worst thing I saw a team do to another that permanently damaged their relationship with a team happened at Texas Robot Roundup in 2011 where a team accepted being selected in an alliance and then went home. The team that selected them was so furious they vowed to never pick them again at any event.
It turned out the team had actually already left and a lone stud net stayed behind and was inadvertently the lone representative for that team in alliance selection (he obviously did not understand what was going on). After he accepted he left too.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

:rolleyes: Here we go again...:deadhorse:

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I'm just gonna go get my 10 foot pole to not touch this with.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

So is gracious professionalism the dead horse, or is it the bit about grown ups playing in a kid's game?

I'm new here; help me out.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

The whole coach thing Some of the best and brightest mentors in FIRST (including National Woodie Flowers award winners) are robot coaches. Saying they don't belong on a drives team is a bad idea and is just gonna start up another fight that goes nowhere.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Do a quick search on the topic of mentors/coaches as the drive coach to see previous threads.

There are plenty of threads on the topic and it gets debated several times a year. I'd recommend reading through it as there a lot of sides and view on the matter.

But please let's let the topic stay out of this thread to stay on topic.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Another thing that generates ill will is when a team comes in and says, "This is what we're going to to this match, so you have to do ..." I don't care if it's the top ranked team in the event, or in the country for that matter. Don't go dictating what others will do just because of your standing or reputation.

If you're an alliance captain in eliminations, then you have some say. Still, as an alliance captain, you should be soliciting information and advice, not making demands. The alliance captain has the final decision, but be sure you're making an informed decision.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

That's why this year more than any other year it is important to get into the que line as early as possible to consult with your partners to come up with a suitable strategy for the match instead of just stumbling up onto the field at the last second and winging it.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

In my experience match strategy (even in qualifications) happens before you're in the que line.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

If it isn't, you need to change that!

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Alot of people fail to see the big picture, including pretty much all of the team except me. They don't realize that winning every match isn't as important as you think because you will get paired with the worst possible alliances against the best teams, it happens. But whats important is that YOU and YOUR team focus on what they can do and preform well. Last year, our robot only had an arm that could flip over, if thats how to word it, but if we extended all the way it was a penalty. We had our last match against the top team at our regional, who also proceeded to win worlds, that we were against. We could score a few frisbees in the low goal but it wasn't worth it, we were with total rookies, who couldn't score. I had to fight my whole team for 20 minutes to convince them we would be better off showing that we could do good defense, which we did towards the end of the matches but not yet notable to scouts, than to try and out dump the best team. In the end our own alliance member broke their promise and tried to play D on them, which they couldn't at all, and ended up making us miss the other robot by trying to shove us out of the way so they could do it which caused us to get nowhere. Was it our fault, in a way yes, like I said, we hadn't done anything noteable until day two of quals, but moral of the story is, I believe that if you do what you do well, every match, than your alliance won't hold you down. Its about getting picked for finals for teams like me, not trying to prove yourself every match when you obviously can't. People need to realize this, and this isn't directed towards the top teams, yall do what yall do, I am in no position to tell yall anything, but rookie and newer teams, do what everyone has been saying, they say it for a reason, do what you can do and do it well! If I'm wrong anywhere, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm all about constantly learning!

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

He's got a lot on the ball and I think we can count on another notable robot from his team this year. However true this pseudo math homily may be, do you think it translates into other versions? Say maybe "better to be an 8 at one thing than a 4 at two things." Or "better to be an 9 at one thing than a 3 at 3 things." I mention this because there may be cases where a team cannot be a 10 at anything.

I find that the most difficult task for many, many people is evaluating external advice. Even the advice of your own mentors gets rejected without supporting rationale, so what chance has an alliance captain at a competition? I never cared too much for Vince Lombardi's quote about winning being the only thing. It turns out he had a lot more useful advice about teamwork and many other subjects. I especially like: "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence." I need to make a large version of this to grace the shop. It won't be perfect or even excellent. Could be good though. :)

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

At regionals or championship, I'd agree with you. Strategy discussions happen much more frequently in the queue line at district competitions, thanks to the tighter match turnarounds. Often at least one of the members of your alliance won't have returned from their previous match until it's almost time to queue up again and/or will have to spend the little time they have between queues to repair their robot.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Then you need a strategy person (we use our drive coach) to seek out other teams ahead of time to iron out who is doing what in the next match. If they have to talk during repairs, so be it.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

It does translate a little better with the context added of considering your resources when he uses that quote. Teams that have people, money, machining resources, and experience accrue "robot points" over time in a way, so when you come to the "robot store" you can cash them in for creating a number of core functionalities that meet higher and higher levels of quality as you have more points to spend. So yes, o na scale from 1-10, a team may only be able to do one thing at an 8/10 instead of a 10/10.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I've competed at a 36 team regional with 12 matches each (smaller than most district events), and we still managed to find the time. If your alliance partner is going to have a match close to your match with them, run through strategy before that match then, it's so important that you have everyone sit down and talk together. It avoids conversation dominance by one team since everyone is relaxed (reletive term :P) with plenty (again, reletive) of time for everyone to contribute.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

2 things.

1) Do people not realize that a box on wheels can still score an assist? That's huge, and pretty hard to do while defending. I haven't tested it, but I would guess it could probably push a ball into a low goal, too.

2) For some teams, building a kitbot and then spending 4 weeks doing drive testing may very well be their best shot at building a competitive robot. Would that be the most inspirational build strategy for those teams? I highly doubt it! Are we really going to insist that those teams do it anyway, just so the "elite" here don't have to suffer the indignity of dealing with their less-than-perfect mechanisms?

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

As mentioned, often it's not even talking during repairs but they're still on the field for their previous match. 2 or 3 match turnarounds are not uncommon in districts.

Smaller in terms of team quantity, sure. But not in terms of schedule. Keep in mind that there's no true practice day at districts, and the first few hours of day 1 are spent on practice matches before qualifications even start. At smaller regionals, the event crew often runs longer cycle times between matches. The 2012 GTRE regional, which I'm assuming is the one you're referring to, ran a relatively leisurely 8:02 cycle time, the second longest cycle time among regionals that year (behind Waterloo). Because of the compressed schedule, that's a luxury that districts cannot afford. And those extra couple minutes between your matches is frequently the difference between discussing strategy in the pits and in the queue line.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

This is an interesting thread, but 6 pages in, shouldn't there be more focus on solutions?

I see two core requirements:
1) the ability to adapt to alliances with widely varying capabilities
2) the ability to coordinate play with little or no time to strategize (and none at all to practice)

I think both of these point to doing a lot of up front planning, and then socializing those plans.
Sports analogy: every team has different plays, but most have common elements. If I am playing touch football I know what a square out is. Whether I have never met the other guy, whether I am playing qb or wr, a 10 yd square out is understood by both, and can be practiced separately.

It could be as simple as a published playbook for a variety of common situations, and an agreed terminology.

(Maybe I'll do some football style diagrams later, when I have something better than MS Paint)
play 001, Rolling Wedge:
3 herder robots against heavy defense
Form a right triangle against the inbounding zone wall
Inbound to robot at 90
Robots move as a group to center
Robot at 90 switches off with robot on its flank
Robots move as a group to scoring zone
Robot on point opens up a lane, robot with ball pushes it down the lane
Robot on point slides in behind the ball and pushes it into the goal

...
play 093, Pick and Go
2 Shooters, 1 Blocker, against moderate defense
Shooter1 and Blocker in inbounding zone, Shooter2 other side of truss
Blocker holds off defender from Shooter1 until in passing range
Shooter1 passes to Shooter2
Blocker moves scoring zone
Shooter1 moves to middle zone and stops setting a Pick
Shooter2 uses pick to shield a move and pass to the Blocker
Shooters both move to scoring zone
Blocker passes to whichever shooter is open
Shooterx shoots
...

Look at the alliance and opposition and downselect to the 'plays' that are appropriate, so that every match isn't reinventing the wheel.

I tried to focus on examples that used all 3 robots on offense, rather than sending someone away to defend, which seems to be a bone of contention. A decent blocking robot can neutralize a better defender just by being in between them and the action. That would be more desireable against opponents with long cycle times or inaccurate shooters, than defending.

Each team could focus on and develop schemes that play to their strengths. Everyone should practice close passes, long passes, human passes, etc., not just shooting. And be prepared to play any position they are capable of.

My, rather wordy, two cents.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

^^
Great post. :)

Congratulations on recognizing the game -- we've been asking the GDC to let us play football for several years now. And this is the year.

Aerial Assist is football.:cool:

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

This thread is rather interesting! I feel that although plays would be very interesting to develop and plan. There is very little time for teams and drivers to have them fully memorized.

For example, even if you get the teams at the tournament as soon as you show up to the regional or district event the information it is still not enough time with out practice unfortunately. Anyone remember orchestrating a triple at championships at 2012? Teams would have a hard time doing it without practicing with each other and getting the flow of working together.

The football analogy is really good comparison. The amount of coordination before hand in my opinion is going to be way crazier than other years past because you are no longer working by ones self. although at least you can talk to your teammate in match unlike sometimes in 2012. (qualification white bridge balancing)

I ultimately think drivers will incoherently develop a sort of flow of offense and defense just as they always have due to certain game elements. I do think that the robots that are in the second tier of a regional will want to show off their capabilities. For example, climbing in 2013 even if it will take them longer than per say epic scorer would. This is all apart of the game by design in my opinion. It is going to take gracious professionalism to win and to lose due to partners. The Robot in 30th place may just want to show off what they want which is ok. This is the reality of what powerhouses will have to deal with.

Long story short TLDR The game is from what I can tell intended to be this way. Its unfortunate for powerhouses because they may come off as the bad team, but its the way the game is meant to be worked though. Teams that minimize this will have great success in my opinion

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I agree, I am thinking more a 3 ring binder with laminated copies of useful plays. Before a match the alliance can get together and agree on a primary approach and maybe an option or two. So you are starting from a pre-thought-out place, not inventing on the fly. Each team has a laminated copy for at the drivers station for reference, if needed. But even as a discussion starter it could be useful.

I understand, but we are talking pick-up touch, not Bill Belichek film study. For instance the triple balances had to be specifically planned for the exact robots involved. This is much more open ended. Under what combinations of alliance partners and opponents will a long passing game be better? Which call for close passing? When is it best to skip that last assist and shoot from the center zone?

By thinking though the combinations that can work, and having noted them in advance, you can come up with a practical strategy more quickly. By having them diagrammed its easier to explain to partners. "OK we are 3 tall shooters on mecanums facing 3 short herders with 5' nets for defense. Lets play two up and one inbounding. The inbounder passes to whichever is more free the other backs it up for missed balls, and defends on caught balls. Shoot as quickly as you can before the defense can get to you."

You won't have every answer to every situation. But the excercise of systematically thinking about the problem, and recording and testing hypothetical answers can't hurt.

Agreed, and the ultimate arbiter is always what actually worked, in a real contest. But I like the DDE quote "Plans are nothing, planning is everything"

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

This thread seems to be less about ill intent and more about how this year's game may create dissatisfaction with some teams. There seems to be some worry that all non-elite bots will be cast aside if they are on an alliance with an elite bot since there is only one game piece per alliance.

While I understand how this concern exists, I would be shocked if this became a common occurrence. Assist points are the first tiebreaker, so elite teams are going to, at very least, attempt to implement strategies that heavily favor assist scoring, especially if they feel the opposing alliance has a lower scoring capability.

Also, I have considered a great amount of robot combinations for this game and have yet to come up with one where even one bot would not have significant strategic impact. Even if a bot is playing defense, the zones they stay in, the bots they choose to defend, and the situations in which they may need to interact with the ball all affect what each alliance member needs to do to efficiently contribute.

I think the format of the game this year will allow for more teams to take the spotlight as people will be following the game pieces as opposed to particularly impressive bots. A strong defensive play will be more visible and a smooth assist will be highly regarded.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Elite teams will not have as much control of their own destiny based on robot/driver ability alone. Given the point structure they may have to work with, not around, non elite alliance partners.

I expect to hear stories about teams working together DURING build this year.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I would be agree. but if you have two robots that "think they can" It's not the team that can place to tell them they can't. I would hope teams work together. :]

I guess the question is how does a team minimize this and everyone goes home happy!

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Don't start that again....teams will work out the best strategies for their alliance and those that can't without being ungracious or unprofessional will find themselves in the stands during eliminations

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Agreed and have seen this happen on more than one occasion.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Well the question isn't really about giving teams the "spotlight" I think every year has ways for teams to individually shine. People will from the get go know an impressive bot when they see one. The question is will a robot take an loss due to the fact of trying to give others the "spotlight"? Because there is only one game piece this year. I think it just enhances the chances of teams who build fantastic machines year in year out who may already have a not so great reputation to become the bad guy.

I would love for every robot to contribute to a match but after 6 seasons I know that there will be some that struggle. It would be different if there were more game pieces but there is not. This game even though others have said everyone can play this game may have people playing "Roles" more like in 2008. I think even Alliances with roles can be formidable this year more so than any other year (kinda like 2012 robot feeding triple auto.) (don't remember if MAR or somewhere else)

So my question is does the team who is in the running for a ranking cooperate or do they go rouge like Sarah Palin ? I think we will see both. I do not personally want this to happen but I feel its unavoidable. Gracious Professionalism is going to be pretty interesting to see this year because it comes into play more than other years due to the one game piece per alliance.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I would argue other wise considering 2008 (Overdrive) provides us with a lot of methods for piece acquisition this year. Though the ball sizes are not really the same, they're close enough to use the same methods.

I know. However another mentality that can be taken is that the other alliance robots are goals. If you don't think of the target as an indefinite and unpredictable, but a definite target, then passing becomes much less of communication and more instinctual. Instincts and patterns are reliable, communication that can be garbled by the tension of the moment is not.

Teams will always have personalities. Some are more aggressive while others are more submissive. You'll always encounter this problem but especially in this game, I agree. In order for teams to succeed in this heavily alliance based game, it will require teams to be willing to follow as a pose to lead. Every team will think they know best, and each is right. Any good strategy can be made to work so long as the alliance members will cooperate and play their position to the letter. If there is objection, resentment, or timidity as to success, you're hosed ESPECIALLY in this kind of game.

Nope. Unfortunately, your worries are well founded. With FIRST Competitions, deciding factors are sometimes the only things that matter to teams in dire situations of ranking when adrenaline is running high. Ultimately, the one thing teams can do is tolerate the situations as they come, regardless of how unfair or blatantly incorrect the verdicts may be. This as well is applicable to every year, however especially this year when teams are so much more dependent on one another's performance.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Be shocked. Be very shocked if you're saying this mentality is even somewhat unheard of.

As much as "elite bots" will not have as much actual advantage, the mentality will be most unfortunately prevalent. The lasting myth-turned-self-fulfilling-prophecy that veterans will have more of an advantage with more sponsors and better parts and designs. Naturally veteran teams will be affected by overall alliance performance; however when scouting, scouts will have to record subtleties in driver technique and experience.

I would disagree only because failures will be even more obvious with the center of attention on only two elements. Spotlights will be more negative in nature unfortunately than anything. Exceptional performance will be considered the norm and time will be critical.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

Football teams have a designated running back. Not everyone carries the ball for touchdowns. The same thing applies in other sports (soccer, basketball, etc.), and in Aerial Assault.

What I find very interesting is that the last time the NFL regular season rushing leader won the Superbowl was 15 years ago. Football is a team sport, and line play and special teams that never make it to SportsCenter decide more games than running backs.

This is the most team-oriented game FIRST has given us in the three-robot alliance era. Each robot must contribute to maximize the score. And the scoring system spells this out explicitly.

Assists are worth more than goals. Goals involve acquiring and depositing a ball into one of several very large, stationary openings. Assists require acquiring and relinquishing a ball to/from another teammate that is moving and may have vastly different ball possession capabilities than your own machine.

Which is a more difficult task to perform quickly and reliably?

How many scorers will make the playoffs? How many assisters?

What is the first tiebreaker?

If you are partnered with a robot that has an amazing scoring function, recognize that just because you don't get to use a mechanism in a given match doesn't mean that you aren't contributing to the alliance. The smart alliance captains will see you and reward your play. (And having a backup shooter for passing or in case of an emergency is never a bad thing).

And lastly, a prediction. I think some top-level teams will recognize that the math doesn't add up the same way it does in other shooting games. I predict that in 2014, you will see teams who have captained alliances on Einstein in the past forgo 10-point shooters in order to excel at other roles.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I remember from years ago a very capable team who would start strategy discussions with a simple question....

"What do you want to do to help our alliance?"

The question and tone were sincere and a serious effort was made to accommodate the "needs" of all teams on the alliance, including a shot at "showing off".

At the time I was impressed by the simple courtesy of their actions in encouraging the other teams to get what they wanted out of a match out on the table first thing.

They had a really weird name


The Cheesy Poofs

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I like this question. Thanks for sharing. Will definitely try to incorporate this into our approach to strategy discussions.

Re: Aerial Assist and Ill Will
 

I don't understand, an all assisting alliance or picking nitches instead?