[FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

Posted on the FRC Blog, 2/5/14: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...eather-weather

Withholding Allowance will be increased to 45 pounds!

+>1 Frank and FIRST!

FRC Blog - Weather, Weather
 

http://www3.usfirst.org/roboticsprog...eather-weather

45 lbs withholding allowance. Go crazy, folks.

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

Thank You Frank!

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

Woohoo, Thanks Frank!

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As a California team, I think we just got one of the biggest breaks could ever hope to get. Now, not that we'd mind getting your snow, so we can actually drink some water this summer...

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I call it a tie. You both win.

You should share your reward.

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Interesting we could theoretically withhold a running spare drivebase. We aren't going to do that but that still seems like a crazy idea.

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This doesn't even count off the shelf gearboxes and the like, you could probably withhold almost your entire robot if you wanted to...

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Just keep in mind that even though it may be COTS, if you have assembled it (VEX Pro Ball Shifters, for example, require assembly) it counts toward your allowance. The way around this would be waiting to assemble things at competition, which takes time but is possible.

You're restricted to raw materials and things in the same state that they came out of the box, plus 45 pounds.

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

Am I alone in thinking that weather hasn't been that bad, we haven't missed that much time, and that the robot is arguably ahead of schedule??? In Houghton, Michigan?

How can I even withhold 45 lbs?

Though, good idea for some other places; I've heard the likes of Indiana got hit quite hard.

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We're at 10 missed days and counting. I'd say that the weather was only bad enough to miss 6 or 7, but we have to follow school policy and cancel when school is out.

Either way, it's bad enough. The increase to 45 lbs will give us some more flexibility in systems we haven't been able to even build/test yet. I didn't expect a break and my kids know that we're working toward a Feb 18 bag date, but I'm glad FIRST has recognized the extreme situation and given us something to work with.

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We're at 5 missed days (in Minnesota, where the snow is higher than my car roof on the sides of my driveway!), and yet we have the robot electrically and mechanically finished a week and a half earlier than we've ever had before. The early finish has less to do with the weather and more to do with the dedication and drive of our captains... they've been really awesome this year!

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Cool, now we have more time to work on the secret endgame mechanism.:rolleyes:

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No I think it was the wrong thing to do. Ask Canada about bad weather. In New England we get some extreme weather and we suck it up. Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. So I repeat that this is bad form on behalf of FIRST.:(

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

There is a difference between getting bad weather in Canada and New England where there are the resources set aside and the experience in dealing with the environment and NC and Alabama getting snow when they don't usually get it. Just because you know how to drive in snow doesn't mean that 16 year old in NC driving in snow for their first time does.

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Increasing withholding allowance is FIRST's standard response to teams losing build season days (so far). By sticking with a 6 week build season and increasing allowance, FIRST is providing the most equal playing field while still requiring teams to plan ahead for unforeseen circumstances.

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Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. That has always been the answer from FIRST in the past. Facts that can not be argued. I am not being confrontational just truthful.

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We've missed 14 days of school this year in Missouri, all during six week build, which really sucks because that is more then a third of the build session! Missed weekends too that aren't included in the 14 days.

Greatly appreciate the increase to 45 lbs :)

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I'm in Pittsburgh, some of the teams I have been working with have been up to 10 days missed so far.

I do feel like the price of the Anderson Power Poles just went up....

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I would much prefer FIRST do something like this than send the message that not cancelling meetings and risking the dangerous weather is better than cancelling and missing the time.

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Feel free to not use the Withholding Allowance then?

I'm not sure I see what the problem here is. Not all teams can prepare for these circumstances, and not all teams have the resources available to work around them. Calling everything a learning exercise is illogical because a team will learn to plan ahead for next season, but it is not helpful at the moment to tell them to "suck it up."

To the teams who are struggling to catch back up - feel free to reach out to other teams if you need help with fabrication, troubleshooting, or anything else. Better late than never.

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

You're right if you look at FRC as a robotics competition. Here's a newsflash for you, it's not. It's a tool for inspiration that just happens to masquerade as an engineering competition. Now, let's look at the options here:

Option 1: You should have planned better/Deal with it

In an engineering competition this is the proper response. BUT, does it accomplish our inspiration goal? No, in fact it does the opposite. "We tried FIRST but it was too hard and we can't do it" or "It was unfair, we got steamrolled by these punks who didn't lose days to snow". Or, my favorite - "Oh we had a design for [mechanism] that was really cool but we didn't have time to adequately test it because we got a freak storm"

Option 2: Add withholding allowance

In an engineering competition this is fine, it doesn't damage anything and it actually encourages modularity. From the POV of inspiration? It's a life saver: "They are listening to our struggles". It also allows more butts in seats time with the mentors which is one of the biggest goals of FIRST.


If you want to argue facts, make sure you are right. FRC just so happens to use a robot as a tool. The end goal isn't building a robot, the end goal is building future engineers. There's plenty of time for the world to crap on their spirits and make them bitter engineers, let's try to not do that.

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And it may also encourage more teams to try and create multiple iterations of their designs.

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Except you know, when it hasn't. Expansion of withholding allowance due to weather related circumstances has occurred before (2010 I believe).


We're fortunate to not work within the confines of a high school so we can work on some days where its snowy/wintery (students take the subway to the lab). However I know many teams around us that have been severely hampered by the many snow days/closed labs. This is a nice gesture to help those teams.

-Brando

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Like I said I'm not being confrontational. Haters are gonna hate.

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No but you are making a point that somehow giving teams a greater weight allowance isn't a good call by FIRST. They've made this call in the past and even extended build season by a few days once (if I remember correctly it was because FedEx couldn't pick up everyone's crates in time), so this isn't unprecedented.

Great job FIRST! We've missed a few days and will definitely use the extra weight allowance.

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THIS. THIS is what FIRST is all about. They have inspired the students and the students are now passionate about robots and are passing the passion to the next generation.

I tip my hat to you, Team 2177.

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Yes, 2003 was extended due to a major blizzard on the east coast on ship date, and 2004 was extended two days because a lot of teams received their KOP late.

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Unfortunately this is flat out incorrect. In 2010 the withholding allowance was increased to 65 lbs. You are being confrontational when you state your opinion as fact without supporting evidence. (Un)fortunately, proving something false is significantly easier than proving something true.

This would imply that there are indeed haters towards you, which I haven't seen so far in this thread. Respectful disagreement is not hate-- rising above hate is honorable, rising above a respectful disagreement is insulting.

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It's not the fact that it was bad weather itself, but what the bad weather lead to. There are multiple school districts that have had schools closed for 5-10 days at a time, which is different. If all of these districts had the resources to combat the weather early, and kept schools open, perhaps FIRST wouldn't have granted the withholding allowance addition. FIRST is giving an exception due to circumstances beyond most teams' control. The bad weather also lead to huge shipping delays for most companies, which is also something that is beyond most teams' control. Now perhaps, if the delays were in the teams' control, maybe FIRST wouldn't give an additional 15 pounds for withholding...

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Its a blessing for Midwest and NE folks, this year we in midwest had record snowdays and in order to comply with State rules, we are adding few extra minutes to school days.

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Seriously? In light of the storms you had just this week? Let's really look at unusual weather, -35 in Minnesota, that's 20 degrees below average for Calgary. Toronto has an average of 31 in of snow in Jan and Feb. We topped 51" yesterday with a new storm coming over the weekend. Minneapolis had 19 days of below zero in January alone. Detroit has had more snow in January than it recieves all season. Did you see any of the video from Hotlanta last week? One motorist I saw interviewed was in his car for 16 hours. I bet you didn't hear the story that it was colder in central Minnesota on several days than McMurdoe Station or Wild Horse, Yukon Territory.
I repeat, Thank You Frank, Good Job, Keep up the Good Work, Thank You!

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

This is much appreciated, Frank. It has been unusually snowy this year. Some of our students were talking about how they haven't had a full week of school since November.

Like some others, we do not work out of a school and thus don't have to conform to a school's extracurricular policies, but some students do have a 45 minute commute to our shop, and it is hard to justify traveling far through ice and snow to get to robotics. Our attendance is severely reduced on those days.

I see many meeting cancellation notices pop up on my Facebook feed for many local teams when these storms hit. The extra 15 lbs is nice for those teams that may need to have their build season hours spill a little bit into the competition season and doesn't provide a serious competitive advantage to those teams that work in climates that don't get this kind of weather at this time of the year.

Yes, you can use it if you need a dramatic redesign, but you have to be awfully on point to do that at competition anyway, and teams have done that with far less than 45 lbs before (1218 and 234 last year would be two such examples). 15 extra lbs makes this easier. I see this as a nice insurance policy by FIRST that teams have more flexibility to attempt changes if they don't complete their robots on time, since not every team has easy ways to schedule around weather problems.

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Im glad to hear frank attempting something about all the weather so good job, but do you think the option he chose was the better option compared to adding a few days to build season.

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I think adding a 'few' days to build season is a less efficient means just because not everyone meets on the same days. For example if you extended build for 3 days, and your team doesn't meet two of those days, then the extension really didn't do anything to help your situation.

With the withholding allowance change, all teams have a much better chance of being able to make up for lost time in a way that works for them.

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

This is, in my opinion, a great call.
It has been snowing more often than not snowing in the Midwest. I think a local news-channel reported that it's been snowing something like 68% of the time since our first snowfall in Northeast Wisconsin. We've lost at least a week of build season due to the weather. In addition, we have kids traveling from other schools that oftentimes can't make it to meetings. I can't even imagine what it's been like in the South/Southeast where they're not at all equipped to deal with snowfall and icy roads.

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Our team has had 4 days lost due to that one infamous snow storm and the resulting snowjam. The Atlanta public school district has cancelled 4 full days of classes and 1 teacher work day so far this season (luckily our team was able to meet on the teacher work day still, but others weren't as lucky). You know it's bad when Georgia Tech, notorious for having class despite weather, cancels classes for 3 days due to the snowstorm that passed through the Atlanta area. Although our team wasn't able to meet for those 4 days, we pulled extra hours and an additional day on the weekend to try and make up for the lost hours, but other teams in our area can't do that, and the 45 pounds is a life saver for those teams.

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I would suppourt 45 pounds as the new standard witholding allowance. A large withholding allowance encouages team to innovate, rather than feel stuck with thier design if they made poor assumptions during the build season. At the same time, it's not a huge buff to those who already have a good robot at the end of build, given how hard it is to install and tune a system entirely at a competition.

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

We are just getting our first snow day in Portland, and most likely we will end up with tomorrow too. Hopefully it doesn't extend until Saturday.

Re: [FRC Blog] Weather, Weather
 

+1.

Not meeting in a school we did only miss three days but that's also three days of no deliveries and slower shipping to here from the north/northeast at many times during the season hasn't been fun

Another great thing about this allowence is if you have been wanting to make a practice bot it's that much cheaper, now you have that much more stuff you don't have to buy seconds of.