Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Okay so what my team is thinking is our whole robot is about 65lbs and we are probably going to push it to the very last second to get this done so their will be no time for powder coat. What we were thinking is with the recent rule change of being able to bring 45lbs of parts we could just bag our 20lbs drive base and then powder coat all of the other parts in the two weeks we have before our regional. Thoughts? Comments?

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

If everything that is fabricated/assembled weighs less than the allowance, you're free to do it. You can get creative here by removing any parts that are (unmodified) COTS and putting them back on at the event. I'd be careful about getting into the situation where you spend all day Thursday assembling the robot, though.

I remember getting some nasty looks in 2009 when the entire upper half of our robot was within the allowance that year, and we were waiting to walk in with what looked like an entire robot :)

(Usual caveats apply, re-check rulebook and Q&A for any items you intend to withhold)

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Okay so we are a rookie team and I see COTS everywhere and I have looked into the rule book and can't figure out what the heck it is. Would you elaborate a little bit to enlighten the rookie :]

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

I think a lot of teams will be doing this. Just make sure you can put together your robot extremely quickly. It looks like you guys are only attending 1 regional and you don't want to spend the first 5 hours of Thursday putting your robot back in the same condition it used to be, then waiting for inspection. Inspection at the start of a regional is usually faster because everyone is still working to get their robots legal, so more inspectors will be free. If you have a robot that you just need to unbag then inspect, you'll be able to get a lot more practice match time in.

You said you will need to push it to the very last second to get your robot completed which doesn't sound like you have much time for practice. That Practice time could be a lot more valuable than the powder coat.

just my $.02

COTS is another way of saying off the shelf parts. For example, gearboxes, motors, pretty much anything you could buy. However, if you modify the part at all, it is no longer considered COTS. This could be as simple as putting a pinion gear on a motor.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Commercial Off-The-Shelf.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

COTS means Commercial Off The Shelf, as in parts that you buy and put on your robot without any modification. This could include motors, pnumatic components, gearboxes (assuming you didn't change them at all) and other pre-fabricated systems or components.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

From FRC Game Manual Glossary

COTS: a “Commercial, Off-The-Shelf” COMPONENT or MECHANISM, in its unaltered, unmodified state. A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from the VENDOR, available from a non-Team source, and available to all Teams for purchase.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

When I say push it to the last second that is including what we are hoping to be a lot of drive practice so all of next week (we should have the bot done this weekend). We are also attending a practice event not this Sunday but next Sunday. I am not exactly worried about time taking to put the robot back together because it should not take a while the thing we are trying to avoid is having to re-wire the thing.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Let me remind everyone of the wording of R18:

(Per the blog, 30 is now 45, but that has not been reflected in a team update yet, so the rule I copied still says 30. I expect this will be rectified in the next team update)

To me, this implies that an actual robot is bagged and brought in. Combine that with R1:
These two would seem to imply that, while you can bring in plenty of fabricated parts, you can't bring in a whole robot outside of the bag. And for that, I would use the "impartial observer" rule - if your grandmother was standing there looking at it and says "what a nice robot you built!" then it's a robot.

There was a similar issue a few years ago (2010) when it was bumped up to 65 lbs - some teams simply didn't bag anything because their entire robot was under 65 lbs. We really don't want to see teams walking in with a robot unbagged and some fabricated parts they want to attach to the robot bagged.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

I would say: skip the powder coating. Bag a complete, intact, working robot. Show up Thursday, unbag it, and play every practice match you can, including standing in whenever you can. Pretty paint is nice, but a reliable working robot with lots of practice time is way nicer.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Why would you use this when there is a clear definition provided in the manual?

"ROBOT: an electromechanical assembly built by an FRC Team to perform specific tasks when competing in AERIAL ASSIST. It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation. The implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play AERIAL ASSIST (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD or a ROBOT designed to play a different game would not satisfy this definition)."

While grandmothers are pretty cool, I would be hesitant in letting them determine what is and is not a robot. :rolleyes:

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

I think you are going to see a lot of that. It is in the rules and, honestly, I see nothing wrong with it. During "snowmagedon" we bagged wheels and drive motors. Everything else was brought it. I remember a team just bagged a frame for Rebound Rumble. They added the COTS and other parts Thursday and had it running just after lunch.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Wait, aren't wheels and drive motors both COTS... (note he is referring to when he was on 2106 on this one)

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

We had some interesting wheels that year that were not COTS. They were integrated into the motors. They were one unit and put them in the box together.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

With the proliferation of VEX and AndyMark robot components, I wish they would change this rule. For most teams the only non-COTS parts are their frame and structures of their robot. A well rehearsed team could quite feasibly bring their entire robot to a competition unbagged and assemble it at the venue quite easily.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

People seem to be missing an important piece of information here: you can bring 45 pounds of stuff in now, but that 45 pounds includes any ASSEMBLIES. The example of a motor with a pinion is an ASSEMBLY. That goes against your 45 pounds. So does your assembled super shifter, or your pretty piece of wood that is already cut out. In fact, the argument that a piece of aluminum that is cut to a specific length is a FABRICATED ITEM and would count is pretty valid too.

Let's be fair here. There has been lots of snow, but remember that, at one time, we had to SHIP the robots in crates.:rolleyes:

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

If something is assembled from a kit of COTS items, it is a fabricated item and counts toward the withholding allowance. [Q257]

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

What COTS basically says is that you may not tamper with any off-the-shelf parts or it will become a fabricated part. This is typically used for the electronics because they don't want you to be messing with your cRIO or other robot parts!
I don't think COTS is preventing you from doing this. However, the inspectors have the ability to deem your part as dangerous if it holds back many pounds of force and can make you disable or remove that part, so be careful!

And, how the heck did you get the robot to weigh about 65 pounds? Do you just drive around and push the balls around? I think our drivetrain weighs 20-30 pounds by itself. With the electronics, we are already looking at another 10-20 pounds, making it 40-50 pounds right there. Then, you have your mechanisms. Typically, that will take up the rest of the weight!

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Your 2 for 3. Because you can buy a Super Shifter already assembled, it doesn't count towards the 45 as long as you haven't attached anything to it (ie a sprocket or a robot).

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

And the problem is?

They'd lose quite a bit of time Thursday building their robot, missing out on practice time with other teams at the event, push back their inspection, really put themselves in the weeds.
If they want to make that trade, I say let 'em.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Just train your team up like these guys. No problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgwF8mdQwlw

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

This seems like very specious reasoning to me. A ROBOT is a FABRICATED ITEM that consists of many FABRICATED ITEMS. R1 prevents a team from bringing 2 ROBOTs in bags, or 1 ROBOT in a bag and 1 ROBOT outside a bag. How does it keep someone from bringing 1 ROBOT outside a bag and no ROBOT inside a bag?

There's no requirement that a ROBOT be in the bag, and many teams do not have a ROBOT in the bag. Many teams withhold their cRIO, so they can continue programming. If there isn't a cRIO in the bag, there is no control, and therefore whatever else is in the bag is not a ROBOT. The bag and tag rules say "robot" and not "ROBOT".

A better argument is from R15.

Is this a personal opinion, or has this been discussed by the LRIs and/or GDC? If the later, today's team update should have clarification. Otherwise, you will see this situation, and I'd hate for a team to be told they can't compete because the rules were not explicit.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Joe - the requirement that the robot be in the bag really comes from R18 - the fabricated items you bring with outside of the bag you are for repair/upgrade of the ROBOT - this clearly implies that those fabricated items are not the actual ROBOT. So if you can't bring the robot in as a fabricated item under R18 (as it would not be a repair/upgrade for the ROBOT), then it either has to come in the bag or not at all.

At this point, my statements are personal opinion - I am not a part of the GDC. However, I believe it is in the intent of the rules that the robot is bagged, and not carried into the competition outside of the bag. I can tell you that if a team did have their robot outside of the bag (but kept it under 45 lbs), then as an LRI I would have to deal with the situation. That would include a discussion with the FTA and the head ref, and probably a phone call to HQ (baring any preexisting ruling from the GDC in a team update or Q&A).

We have a very difficult job of both enforcing the rules (telling teams they did something wrong and there's a penalty for it) and providing an environment where the kids are inspired (getting them on the field and playing as best they can). In a case where a team violates a major rule (for example, never bagging their robot and carrying it in unbagged), how do you enforce the rules without driving those students away from FIRST and everything we're trying to accomplish?

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

If a team builds two kit drive bases, bags one and builds the superstructure of the robot on the unbagged drivebase. Then for the competition they unbolt the superstructure from the drivebase and assuming it weighs less then 45lbs, bring in to 'upgrade' the robot in the bag.
Is that acceptable?

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Yes that would be legal under current rules.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

As I read the rules, you would have a ROBOT in the bag and various assemblies that do not add up to a ROBOT outside of the bag, which makes it legal. That's something a lot of teams do every year - they build their robot, then they remove one or more assembly that attaches to it to continue testing.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

So, to achieve this a team could bag a junk drive with some electronics and carry in a good deal of systems that would then be assembled with cannibalized parts from the bagged robot to create a robot out of what was just a pile of dumb systems.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

so long as they aren't carrying in something that would be considered a ROBOT... which is where the whole debate comes in :) At what point do we consider an assembly or collection of parts a robot? I don't think the rules are very clear on this - the definition of ROBOT is "It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation." So a strict reading of that would be that anything without a cRIO is not a ROBOT, even if it has everything else you need and you just bolt the cRIO on when you get to the competition. I don't feel that would be in the spirit of the rules, however.

Last year, there was a certain Minnesota team that competed with what we dubbed "a different robot at each event". They carried in a different shooter (under 30 lbs) to each event, and spent the first day of the event making major modifications to their robot to support the new shooter. The end result was that every event I saw their robot at, it looked like they had a different robot! In this case, however, it was clear that what they were bringing in would be considered an upgraded assembly intended to replace something on their robot.

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

So with a trivial amount of work a team can get around your interpretation of not bringing in a "robot".

Re: Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)
 

Well, I for one am glad the GDC cleared up the wording in the rules regarding the 45lbs of fabricated parts you can bring it - it basically makes all of my previous concerns moot. http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0#term%20162

So, now you can withhold your entire robot, if it's under 45 lbs :) Personally, I like this update, as it removes any ambiguity and makes it a lot harder for teams to accidentally get into serious trouble, so long as they use a scale!