What is considered a catch
 

Are there any "possession, control" rules ? What if the ball passes over the truss and falls into a waiting "catching bot", but then bounces out. Is this considered a catch?

Re: What is considered a catch
 

3.1.4:
A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER.

The ref needs to see obvious possession before the ball hits the ground, i.e the ball cant just hit your catcher and bounce right out without you "holding" it first.
At least that is what i got from it.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

I would most certainly apply the 'grandmother' rule to this. That is to say if your grandmother (or someone unfamiliar with FRC and its detailed rules) wouldn't think a robot caught the ball, then you didn't really catch it.

If the ball lands in/on your robot and bounces out, that's probably not a catch.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

POSSESSION is defined by the manual under G12 as follows:


Blue Box:
Additionally Q&A has made some statements with regards to blocking that should also apply to catching:

Q177:

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Do not apply the 'grandmother' rule to this. There is a clear definition in the manual.

A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER.

You just need to POSSESS the ball. DjScribbles has quoted the places in the manual and QA relevant to the definition of POSSESSION.

CATCH != catch as your grandmother may think.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

2 feet down and a football move common to the game? :p

sorry, couldn't help it.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

If you're willing to risk a non-reversible ref's call on it, go ahead.

I see a few ways to interpret what's in the manual:

"carrying" - passes the grandmother check

"herding" - if you can repeatedly bump/push the ball before it hits the ground, you deserve a medal

"launching" - Very high-risk IMO, relies on ref's non-reversible call/judgement being the same as yours with regards to a mechanism being in motion relative to the robot; you must also hit the ball mid-air with a moving mechanism which doesn't strike me as practical and would likely result in hunting down the ball, costing you and your alliance precious time. While possibly within the letter of the rule, it is not within the spirit or intent of the rule IMO.

"trapping" - if you can pin a ball between your robot and a field element mid-air, you deserve a medal, and i think that would also pass the grandmother rule too

So, I suppose you're right in a sense: there are a few cases where a by-the-letter interpretation of the rules results in a CATCH the grandmother rule does not. Though IMO one better think long and hard about the practicality and reliability of making a 'non-grandma-approved' CATCH. I suggest following the grandmother rule from a practicality and reliability standpoint.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

I didn't say anything about it being worth it to risk this. There are many threads out there from the beginning of the season arguing the ambiguity of a CATCH. I'm sure there will be quite a few refs that call a launch a CATCH, and quite a few that don't. That's one of the tough things about this particular rule. If you are a high caliber team you will of course try to design a mechanism capable of performing a CATCH and actually catching the ball for control reasons.

If you are a low resource team and were only able to field a moving lunch tray there are other ways to get a CATCH. If you have a spinning paddle on top of your robot designed to hit the ball in the forward direction all you need to do is park under where the ball will land. If the ball hits your paddle and goes forward it would, according to the manual and QA, be considered a CATCH. Grandma wouldn't think so because it is not a catch, but it is still a CATCH.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think all of your points are valid, I am just explaining why I would choose to follow the grandma rule. :]

Sorry if my original post did not convey that intent :o

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Couldn't agree more. Both POSSESSION and CATCH are clearly defined within the rules and Q&A quoted above.

There is no reason to bring opinions on practicality and risk into the discussion as each team must weigh that on their own when designing mechanisms within the rules defined. The OP asked a specific question and the response given was correct.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Something to keep in mind is that the same "possession" definition that applies to catching a ball coming over the truss also applies to possessing an opponents ball, which is a technical foul.

If you are prepared to argue that deflecting your own ball should count as a catch, you should also be prepared, as a matter of gracious professionalism, to argue that by deflecting your opponents ball you deserve a technical foul.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

I anticipate the "desired location or direction" being called very strictly with regards to catching to prevent a team from spinning a baseball bat over their robot to earn catch points. If a robot has an active mechanism directing the ball towards the next zone/far wall/friendly robot reliably I expect catch points to be awarded. I am comfortable with my interpretation of the rule but it is slightly at odds with the traditional (grandmother's) definition.

My grandmother's opinion of the rules doesn't bother me this year since an "assist" could be:
-Robot Red 1 pins ball against wall for a couple of seconds
-Every robot ignores the ball for 90 seconds
-Robot Red 2 collects it, drives it the length of the field, and scores it

-Red robot 1 recieves the ball and throws it the length of the field
-Blue robot bumps it back to the original zone ("traditionally considered incomplete or a turnover)
-Red robot 2 collects and scores

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Sorry that this may be a little off topic but when a human player catches the ball over the truss, then places the ball in a robot without the ball ever touching the ground, does that alliance receive catch points in that cycle? I apologize if this is already stated in the Q&A or the manual.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

No, a catch by a human player is ineligible for catch points, however, when he (or she, I might add :P) gives the ball to a [different] awaiting robot, assist points are received, along with the toss points.

Im not in a place to go scrounging through rules but I recall discussing this elsewhere on CD

Re: What is considered a catch
 

With the obvious overwhelming effort put into the rules and more rules. I would think that the definiton of "Catch" would be absolute. Ie. in possession for (X) amount of time, or mandatory movement of the bot after catching. Now we want to enact the vague "grandmothers rule", I would argue that inadvertently ending up with your opponents ball in your bot doesn't define possession, due to complete lack of intent. In fact are there any rules preventing an alliance from intentionally placing the ball in an opponents bot?

Re: What is considered a catch
 

See [G12] regarding possession as discussed earlier, and [G14]:

Thus if you try to force an opponent to commit a foul by possessing your ball you get a technical foul.

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Yes, I missed that (G12) similiar to last years full court shooters, that sat in the loading zone only to move forward and create the technical foul. I witnessed this several times, with game changing consequences.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Let me pose this question.
You place a rotating bar on top of your robot. The ball is thrown over the truss it lands on your rotating bar and is "batted" somewhere on the field.

Is this a catch? It would be a possession... the bar is moving relative to the robot... so this would be launching which is defined as possession.

Granted you don't know exactly where the ball will be going but you should get the 10 points for a catch..


What say you?

Re: What is considered a catch
 

And, if your intentionally force your opponent to possess your ball in their 'hopper', they are free to hold onto that ball for the rest of the match without penalty.

Q159 Q. If a blue bot deliberately (as determined by a ref) causes a blue ball to be POSSESSED by a red bot, will G12 apply or will G14 apply? If G14, and the POSSESSION is via carrying, can red POSSESS the ball for the remainder of the match without penalty? Consider if Red is not be able to free it.
FRC2530 on 2014-01-17 | 7 Followers

A. If it is determined to be a "strategy aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule", G14 would be called. In this case, there would be no additional penalty for the Red ALLIANCE continuing to POSSESS the BALL.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

It really depends on whether the refs would think you are fulfilling the "to a desired location or direction" part of:

However I think it's pretty subjective to say if a team hit it in a "desired location or direction"...so based on the definition of POSSESSION I would have to say:

Yes, it would count as a CATCH. Whether or not it's called that way may be a different story.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

A Blue bot on one side of the truss throws the ball over the truss to a Blue aliance member that is actively being defended from said catch by red defender.

The ball goes into the red bot, whats the call ? The Blue throwing bot is aware of the increased possibility that the ball will go into the red bot, but attempts the throw regardless.

Is the Red bot penalized ? If yes, why would the Red bot accept the risk involed in defending the throw?

Re: What is considered a catch
 

We already discussed this question on kickoff day http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124016&highlight=definition+of+ca tch

Re: What is considered a catch
 

I believe that the RED robot would receive a G12:
Yes, there is always going to be some possibility that a ball a BLUE robot threw is caught by a RED robot accidently, but I hardly think that a BLUE robot passing to another BLUE robot (even with defense being played) would be considered a G14:

The RED robot would accept the risk based on alliance strategy, robot design, driver ability, and probability of this specific scenario occurring, while weighing the benefits to the alliance of playing defense.

Is a bobbled and dropped catch still a legal catch?

A ball hits your robot in two places during a catch attempt, then spills out of the robot.

Would that be considered herding, thus possession, thus a successful catch, even though the ball was never successfully "caught?"

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Yesterday's update says no:

Re: What is considered a catch
 

So from my interpretation, the new addition to "deflecting" means that the ball touches the robot, but then leaves after contact (eg. bounces in and goes out), wouldn't be considered possession.

However, wouldn't "Herding" be considered possession if the ball bounces inside the robot multiple times, as used in the definition of herding?

Therefore if the ball bounces inside the robot a few times and then bounces out, wouldn't it legally be called possession by herding, and thus catch points?

Re: What is considered a catch
 

I'm very interested in how this is going to be called at events this season. By the definitions and rules, this form of Trapping is Possession that would lead to an Assist. However, based on the comments of many volunteers, who are using the "grandmother rule", Trapping is not "enough" Possession to constitute an Assist. I hope that everyone is going to enforce the actual written rules, as opposed to this esoteric grandmother clause.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

That discussion was a good one but it was done before the clarification about what a launch was. With the new clarification that to be a launch the portion of the robot that contacts or launches the ball has to be moving relative to the robot it needs further discussion

I tend to think it will be a judgement call by the referee If a
robot had a giant bat on their robot that could hit the ball into the goal after the flight over the truss it should count as a catch. It would definitely count as a possession

So what about a "foul tip". .?? Does it count as a possession if a robot hit a ball towards the goal? Why would "towards the goal" be the only "desired" location?

I Think this needs to be further clarified.

In my opinion the catch was "intended" by the game makers to be control of the ball and not a simple launch. In any sport a catch would mean control. I know that this is not any sport but we still need to think about what catching is in the context of its common usage

The guy with the bat at the plate in baseball
is not called the catcher.

I believe this need to be clarified by the GDC. This will make the game easier to referee

Re: What is considered a catch
 

It will be interesting from the standpoint of both offense - which I believe you are referring - as well as defense being played. If an opponent BLUE ball inadvertently gets trapped between the field side rail and a RED robot - even for a second, technically this is possession by the RED robot and a 50 point technical foul.

We'll see I guess.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

Very true. I think it's very interesting that the GDC used a universal definition for both offensive and defensive Possession. If I were writing the rule, I would have been inclined to use the current definition for Possession to define what you cannot do with your opponents' ball, and have a more restrictive definition on what you need to do with your own ball to constitute offensive Possesion. This would keep the same restrictions on defensive interference on the ball, but would also force teams to exhibit a more intuitive form of possession on offense. I still find the idea that a team can press/Trap a ball against the side of the field to score points, to be very counter intuitive.

Re: What is considered a catch
 

G14: