Zone or Man Defense?
 

Which kind of defense could you see being dominant at competitions? The advantage to zone is you don't have to travel much for an assist, but if you had a really good defender on your team would it be worth not getting that third assist every time for you defender to stop the other team? We figured a robot with a 5' blocker that can also catch would do really well against lower shooters, so would it be better for that robot to focus on catching or stopping their opponents offense?

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I can't speak for your robot but I am inclined to believe that teams who block shots with their robot are going to experience problems such as tipping over and parts breaking

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

very true, last year we saw several blockers with just pvc extensions fall. If the blocker was good and not tipsy, do you think it would be worth sparing those extra assist points?

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

If your blocker is capable of taking a hit from a ball at full speed then by all means go for it. I am a strong believer in Defense but I see the majority of defense this year being played on assist points. If you can be one of the few who can stop shot balls then that would set you apart from the others

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Alright, thank you! So do you think a match would basically look like organized chaos since there are only two balls on the field?:D

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I personally think that because ball defense is going to be difficult to play this year, with possession being kinda sketchy, I believe that robot-robot defense will be more effective than playing defense on the ball.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I think this will be the case for many qualification matches but in eliminations it should look like an assembly line :) the main problem is going to be alliance partners who are overconfident with their abilities and slow down the rest of the alliance.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I think the matches with basically 6 boxes on wheels will be very interesting! I could definitely see a fast paced cycle in the eliminations. I'm wondering how much stopping power does one robot really have compared to 3 good robots? I feel like a blocker could shut down defense, but keeping from clogging the flow would be interesting. I'm wondering if we will see a strategy of one robot carries and two block for them and they pass off as they go along?

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

my bet is zone will be the primary style of D

though if you are operating with mechanum the ball D may be feasible

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I disagree here.

Most shooters I've seen are ri3d style and shoot from a 3' height. A 5' robot in front of them can effectively block that shot, and with a little structure, won't have to worry about damage.

... And as far as man vs zone defense ... I believe that while most will play some sort of zone defense, the most effective defenders will be playing man defense and attempting to lock the ball inside a poor performing robot.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Its going to be very interesting on how this pans out especially during the week one events will it be more efficient to have a one man run and gun with two team members playing zone defense or on the other hand will we be seeing a more slow passed passing game between the robots more points per score but less time playing D....

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Blocking a robot with a shooter that is 3' high would be even easier if you have that blocker extend 20" into over their robot? We are using just pvc and some door hinges to bracket and haven't had any problems yet, as long as we are slowing the ball's trajectory we are happy, we want the ball to go as far away as possible then keep them from getting the ball.
I almost feel like ball defense might be very successful, meaning basically whoever has the ball you defend and slow progress down as much as possible. You would expect the opposing alliance to focus on you. Causing your two members to advance down the field?
Imagine what a match with 3 good shooting robots, against three basically box on wheels robots? the 3 box on wheels robots actually have a good chance to slow down the other alliance quite a bit! I can imagine we will see several matches that are just major clogs most of the time. Then to get out of this one robot would pass the ball in the air causing everyone to go after it. Basically being one big mess, that would definitely be interesting!

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Why do you have to play man defense to do that?

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Canon, a very sensible post........you are thinking.........::safety::

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Canon, you may need to reinforce your drive system with 1/2 diameter aluminum between the drive train because that 1/8 aluminum can bend very easily if you are playing defense

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I believe that you play man defense against any robot that can only eject the ball from 1 side, where you lock the ball in their robot and take them for a ride across the field, effectively shutting down the opposing alliance until the ball can be freed.

That's what I'm calling man defense. It's not played in any particular zone and can (should) be played all over the field.

Drivers will need to be acutely aware of their machines weaknesses (as well as their opponents weaknesses)

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

"Zone defense" doesn't literally just mean sitting in a specific spot. Many strategies will call for you to "man up" against the target near your "zone" of the field. You can effectively play a shutdown defense on a ball carrier with a zone scheme, rather than a man-on-man scheme. What you're talking about it more of a tactic or method of playing defense against a particular robot, rather than an overall defensive scheme.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I feel like this game puts a lot on drivers, but it is very hard to practice for what a match is going to look like. Being a driver I know I have make quick decisions and make the right ones. The drivers also have to be able to look ahead and weigh out what might happen, decide what to do, and then preform well. They will also need to know how long it takes for their opponent to shoot, there are just sooo many logistics that will make driving so much fun this year:D !

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Just to be clear.

Zone Defense: stay in the blue zone and wreak havoc until the robots moved to the white.
Man Defense: Follow 1687 around and make sure they have no chance to be of any sort of value to the alliance.

Like Hockey right?

Anyways, i think Zone defense will be more prevalent in matches only because it still allows you to be in the zone when necessary. i can definitely see a common strategy be robot 1 grab the ball shoot it to robot 2 over the truss then play zone D, robot 2 catch ball (or more likely grab it) and score then play zone D, Robot 3 slow down the Blue alliance (because our robot looks best in red so were red :D). robot 1 and 2 may switch with robot 3 if 3 happens to be in a better position and also its robot 3's duty to also draw defense away from the ball carrier.(ie drive ahead and take the hit so robot 2 can move up) most robots will be very good 1 and 2's but i think its going to take a fast drive and great drivers to really get an effective 3.

just some food for thought.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Yes, but I'd also like to add in ball defense
Ball defense: follow the ball around, and wreak havoc on whoever has it, 1687 or 4490, or 3937.

The problem with a zone defense is a good offense could beat it by double teaming, I feel like if all the robots stayed in their zone it would work, but the reality of it is that that probably won't happen? If you took a defensive strategy the whole game you could just follow the ball around, or play man causing no scoring, so if your auto score was better than theirs you could beat them pretty easily. It really isn't that hard to keep a robot from advancing, so for me I think a mix between zone and ball defense will be very successful. If you put your best defender on the ball, and your two shooters do the zone/ scoring. Or you could do a blocker and ball strategy and have one defender playing ball, then the two other members playing offense with blocking, so one carries to truss while other blocks for it, then the blocker goes and catches the ball, or obtains it then shoots while the other member blocks for them. Basically it needs to be a very flexible plan, to where your alliance members will help without being told. So the drive team will need to be constantly watching both balls first, then their alliance members.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I think many of the sports defense analogies are going to apply directly to Ariel Assist in a big way: you don't play basketball, hockey, or soccer with two game pieces, one of which the opposing team cannot take away from you.

I think playing man-to-man (bot-to-bot?) defense in the strictest sense is going to be a bad idea because it leaves no room for any offense. Or, if a robot does break off to play offense, it will probably leave a huge gap in the defense.

I think zone defense, in the strictest sense, will not be a good idea as well, because it may mean that a robot (or robots) is(are) left sitting in a zone, doing nothing while the action is out of their zone.

I really like the idea of 'defending the ball' rather than any specific robot or zone.

I think a mixture of these three play styles will be the right way to go. I think there will generally be three positions (to steal from soccer terminology):

Sweeper - This robot never lets the opponents ball past them. They play tenacious defense, mostly on the near-side of the field. If they are (reasonably) free they will inbound the ball to their alliance, but otherwise stay focused on defense.

Mid-Fielder - Generally stays down-field of the sweeper. Very good at acquiring and passing the ball. Will team up with sweeper to play defense when needed, but will also team up and support the Striker to score (probably more important than doubling-up defense). Ideally this robot can throw/toss the ball over the truss (i.e. a through-pass or chip-shot) to the striker.

Striker - Ideally this robot can catch a truss shot/toss, but at a minimum can ground-load like nobodies business. Ideally this robot can score in the top goal, but the low-goal will suffice if assist and truss/catch points are solid. The robot generally stays down-field of the other two, but should not be afraid of dropping back close to home if it is required defensively or to help work the ball down the field. They are also the first line of defense: they play strong defense against the ball on the far side of the field when they're not occupied playing offense. When the striker is on offense the Mid-Fielder takes on the role of front-line defense, attacking the ball for the whole length of the field until it is required to play offense again.

Similar to zone defense the robots generally don't change their down-the-field order, but they shouldn't be restricted to one particular section of the field. Similar to bot-to-bot defense the robots can follow the ball or a specific robot the entire length of the field, but continuous attention to one specific robot isn't required or expected. Defensively each robot is focused on the ball when it's near them.

I hesitate to call this strategy or tactic 'zone,' 'man-to-man,' or 'ball' defense. I'm not sure what to call it, but I think it's a very effective way for an alliance to operate.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

The paradigm isn't that useful. The most vulnerable position for defenders to exploit are disrupting a truss / catch attempt on either side. In this case, you play "zone" in that you hang out in that area, but you play "man" in that you will likely be hitting the same robot repeatedly.

Apart from the middle of the field, keeping robots apart for fewer / slower assists per cycle is the other way to do it. This is a combination of covering the right robot and being in the right place when you do it.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I would think you would have your catching robot also defend the score of the other alliances if they have an extension that also blocks? It is important for the driver to know where the opponents shoot from in order to prevent scoring. Honestly if I am on an alliance with two good shooters, I would probably play defense if that is what they wanted of course, but they could score 30 points right? and occasionally 50 if I assist them, but the question is if I could catch would me stopping the opponents be more useful than me catching and assisting? I guess it all depends on stopping power and ability to avoid defense. I think the middle zone is easiest to defend, but I also think it might be better to defend the in bounder? So you could take it as have your catching robot be on the catching side and catch, then hand off and play defense on the in bounder or truss shooter for the opponents? Because you really want to keep the opponents from getting to their zone to score because you can only stop them for so long in most cases, but if they take forever to get there they will start to focus on your robot leaving your alliance more open to score. So if one good defender played the distracter in a sense it would be super beneficial?

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

So so far the different defensive strategies are:
Man- each robot has to guard one other robot.
Zone- you stay in your specific zone
Ball- defend on the ball at all times
Distracter- One member defends on the ball the whole time, other two score
Man Zone Mix- each robot guards in their zones but if none in their zone they target one specifically, such as the top shooter.
Ball Zone- 2 robots trussing and scoring while another plays ball.
Stopper- 2 bots play heavy defense on the ball while the other one scores.

Any others yall can think of? So which of these do yall believe will be most successful? I'm gonna go with distracter, you would get more points and cause there to be less defense on you?

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I don't think there's a one size fits all answer here. If an alliance has a single dominant robot, then it makes the most sense to try to shut down that robot. Then let it be a shoot out with the rest of the alliance. If it's a balanced alliance then it should be a zone defense. If this plays out as a lot of the previous years, there are two offensive robots and a single defensive robot.

I can see it where the ball is in-bounded to a Robot A that passes it over the truss to the primary scoring Robot B. Robot C primarily plays defense through either trying to block or robot-robot defense. Once Robot B passes, then it can go play defense as well.

This is going to be very interesting because it requires more alliance work than in the past where a single dominant robot could win a match all by iteself.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I would go with Robot to Robot defense.

The game hasn't had the time needed to develop a "zone" defense. Nor do we have enough "players" to implement an effective zone defense.

I believe that a single defensive Robot could interrupt the assist cycle enough to make a difference.
It will be interesting to watch if an alliance tries to bother a defensive Robot on the opposing alliance with one of their Robots who has already performed their assist duty.

I am liking this game more and more as a great analogue to sports where coopertition on a team (alliance) to score points is the Holy Grail for success on the play field.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

The truss pass will likely create havoc for many as the catching robot can be messed with. It is likely that many who think the truss pass will be simple may be surprised. If not defended against someway however, the truss pass could be a deciding factor in many matches.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

It very well could be, it will be interesting to see in the first week regionals:D But we first we gotta get through week 6! For this game I really don't know if we will see to many constant trends through the beginning strategy wise? I think there will be somewhat general main one but because there are so many variables I think we will see several winning strategies, making the later regionals very interesting! :D :D

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

I predict that the most consistent trend you will see in early qualifiers is a mass of robots jammed together near the center of the field, with a ball rolling around and a robot chasing after it. Perhaps there will also be a robot sitting dead on one end of the field or moving aimlessly about and getting stuck in the corner all by itself. Drive teams on either end of the field will be yelling and waving their arms like it is going to change things.

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Did I win? Do I get a prize??

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

Very impressive!

Re: Zone or Man Defense?
 

HE KNOWS THE FUTURE!:ahh: