Taking Robot out of Bag
 

So tonight my team and I bagged the robot (drivebase/electronics) but we held back the entire manipulator which we plan on finishing in the next few weeks. What we were wondering is we have a fundraiser and with the rule change this year we are allowed to take the robot out of the bag to show off. What we were wondering is if we were allowed to put our manipulator on because all our robot would do is drive around without the manipulator.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

Have you checked the Manual? Specifically Section 5.4.3 of the Administrative Manual? ::rtm::

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

This is falls into a very dark grey bordering on black. Don't trust an answer on chiefdelphi, followup an official route.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

Yes I have and it is not clear on whether or not you can or can not add something for said robot display. What would be the official route?

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

According to the third bullet under Section 5.4.3 of the 2014 Administrative Manual:

I would consider adding on an entire finished manipulator doing work.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I agree, get an official response, but the rules do make it sound like you cannot add the manipulator. Officials may allow you to spend "X" hours working to attach the manipulator, then force you to leave the robot bagged "X" hours more at your first regional.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

Please post the question on the Q&A. (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php)

The way I read it, you can't do any work on your robot during a robot display unbag period, which includes attaching your manipulator. Think of it like this: if you unbag for the demo and put the mechanism on then rebag it, you've just gained the advantage in time that you otherwise would have spent at the regional attaching the mechanism.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

What if they put the manipulator on for display purposes but then undid any work they did before they rebag it. For all intents and purposes no "work" was done to the robot. . . except possibly practice at quickly putting on a manipulator when they get to the regional. Definitely a question for Q&A as others have stated. But I see no reason why it would be a problem as long as the robot goes into the bag the same way it was taken out.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

We also have a fundraiser with sponsors, but we will not mount any of our held back parts.
We plan to display our held back manipulator on a temporary stand beside the unbagged robot.

The problem with mounting anything at all to the unbagged robot, is that it will give you information you otherwise should not have had. Something as simple as noticing the clearance isn't what it should be, or the mounting holes are misaligned.

We would have to hear a favorable decision from FIRST Q&A before we would consider doing anything to the unbagged part.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

installing the part on the robot you have said would be practice at installing the part, which is practice, whish is illegal. however this "unbag for show" deal should be revised by first to be more specific. if you want to mod the robot you must use your 2 hour mod periods.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I knew personally that particular rule change would start some people turning black & white into pushing some really grey areas..."No work" usually means NO WORK....I would fully expect the proper Q & A answer to be...I hope. As by midnight tonight, it is supposed to be in the bag "not interfaced with" (to me that means even looking into or through the bag to compare, etc. is out of bounds).

They are allowing you to continue fundraising and such w/ it, within very specific limits. Will that be pushed? I'm sure it will it seems already. But...Not in our shop for our team....We did all our shows, etc. in the last few weeks (in the bag it went and into a room that is out of sight, out of mind, & NOT TO BE INTERFACED WITH, like it was already in a crate and shipped tomorrow morning)....It is actually locked away in a maint. closet room where none of the team could possibly interface w/ it....It will be loaded to take to the first regional just as it was bagged & sealed tonight. (Unload...To the pit, inspector present, break seal, unbag, 6 bolts out and back in on the intake, add the bumpers and a fresh battery & head to inspection...Then to the field for a full practice day Thursday! YEAH!) Well, that is the plan anyway!

In all fairness, we did build another practice toy like it (similar, but not an exact duplicate....It has some "wud & plenty of zip ties like that great chsy poofs vid bot" that needs some sanding laquer & staining.....and plenty of stainless steel zip ties it appeared...lol), the first 2 weeks, but both will be slightly different & neither will act just exactly like the other. (We will show that 1 repeatedly, though not nearly as nice a looker as the comp bot...And we have all those pretty pics we can show too, not to mention they can also be invited to see it live and in action in competition we hope at least 3 times in the next couple of months!)

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I went ahead and asked this question on Q&A, in the hopes of clearing the air:

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

Not really the same question, but I think you can apply the intent. Frank (the other one) said in his blog that teams that could not access their robot on stop build could bag them late "as is". As in no additional work.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

FIRST did us all a great favor by allowing us to access the robots for demonstrations and community events.

Our open house is Thursday Night (delayed because of so many snow days) and we intend to simply unbag the robot so people can see it clearly, and bag it back up at the end of the evening. No work, no adjustments, no fitting of other parts.

If teams cross the line and abuse this new option, we could quikly be back to the "Bag and Forget" option of the past and that would be disappointing.

In my opinion, fitting a manipulator is working on the robot, for all of the reasons stated by others.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I'm inclined to agree with this. I do question software though. If you bagged your robot with no code on it, but have been working on a separate robot, can you download the code you've been working on so you can drive/demo?

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I would be inclined to say yes, but you only have one shot to make it work. No troubleshooting the code. Because you can work on the code while its in the bag, I don't think its an issue. However, it is a slightly gray area. I would say if any teams try out new code, be sure to not print out any diagnostics, don't check the driverstation screen, and if it doesn't work first try just shut it down. that way, there's no chance of "working on it". And if you wanna be extra paranoid, make sure you undeploy the code after you finish.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I'd think that new code and driving means we are modifying the bagged components and testing the changes.

I wouldn't put anything new onto the bagged portion of the robot, be it code or a mechanism.
Just a battery to drive with whatever code and mechanisms we bagged it with.

We were suppose to bag it in proper condition to demo it.
Not work on it later to make it demo'able.
Of course we prepared by bagging ours with drivable code, and I have sympathy for the programmers who aren't given any time on the robot before bagging...
It's the mechanical guys who hogged the robot before bagging that I don't have any sympathy for. :)


P.S.
I suppose bumpers that were already mounted pre-bagging and haven't been subsequently modified might be okay to drop on.
Just because they aren't baggable components.
But if they've never been mounted then I wouldn't put them on until the robot gets unbagged for official work.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

As a mechanical guy, we have a policy to give the robot to the coders on day 1 & not start the mechanical until the coders are done. :eek:

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

Make lemons out of lemonade...

Its clear that you can take whats in the bag out and have a static display (no driving by competition drivers) for 4 hours. Leave the bot sitting on the bag, or the bag next to the bot by your display, and it will invite questions. This will give you an opportunity to talk about other key aspects of FRC, regarding how it is a mini version of a real world engineering project, with real world deadlines and contingency plans that involve working hard to make the bot complete at the competition.

Then, use lots of videos with a big monitor to show your best bots in action (unless you are a rookie team.. then show video of someone else's bot!)

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

Then the code by definition works perfectly until you mechanical guys mess it up by adding your mechanisms :yikes:

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

And the GDC hath spoken:
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...olt-the-withhe

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I stand corrected thanks for the clarification!

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I would suggest that if you plan to take it out under the robot display rule and doing anything with it while you have it unbagged, you email someone at FIRST your EXACT plans of what you want to do, to make sure it is ok. Don't do anything until they have approved every single part of it. That way, if they come back and say that something you did was illegal, you have a record saying exactly what you did and that someone at FIRST told you it was ok to do your display. Keeps you safe when you are doing things that may be in or close to the grey area.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

I find the problem of new code very interesting. On one hand, you are most definitely gaining an advantage if you realize your code doesn't work. I don't care if you didn't do any diagnostics at all, or if you didn't try to fix it and redeploy, you now know that your code does this thing that you don't want it to do, and many times that alone is enough for you to figure out how to fix it.

On the other hand, many teams don't have version control. What if a team doesn't have the version of their code from when the robot was unbagged available? Are they just not allowed to deploy code to their robot? That would really hurt the demo.

I'm going to lean towards no: you can't deploy new code. Sure, it may mean that some teams can't take full advantage of this rule, but it is not much different than temporarily mounting components. FIRST gave us this wonderful oppurtunity, let's not push it.

That being said, Q&A is probably, once again, the proper route on this one.

Re: Taking Robot out of Bag
 

This answer doesn't shock me. I think there are ways* to improve the rule to make for better displays without creating a competitive advantage (especially in a big-withholding year), but we'll abide by the ruling.

*My suggestion/ideal scenario: No fabrication while unbagged, parts and assemblies may go on and code may be downloaded. All must be restored to as-unbagged condition before bagging.