Made in America
 

One of the urgent reasons education needs to be involved with programs like First robotics is to raise the technology literacy of American students and help them thrive in technology careers in this globalized technology centric economy. Because of outsourcing, students face a real threat that they will graduate colleges and not find jobs . It is disappointing to see what percentage of components used on our robots are imported.

Should First create a new rule that technology used on robots needs to be "made in America"?

Re: Made in America
 

No, because FIRST is an international organization. There are teams based out of China, Turkey, Israel, Canada, Mexico, Australia, and many other nations, so it would be unfair to them to make such a requirement.

Re: Made in America
 

There are many teams from countries other than the United States. Restricting parts to be made in a country that not all teams are from seems silly.

Re: Made in America
 

FIRST (not First) should absolutely not create a rule like this.
Teams are welcome to create this rule for themselves if they want. There are many companies that advertise American made products (i.e. AndyMark Inc.).

But to have FIRST implement a rule like this would hurt the international appeal of the program. FIRST is no longer a national competition. It is international. I love our international teams! They bring a beautiful diverse culture to the competition scene.

Re: Made in America
 

A rule like that (as others have said) would be a huge letdown on all the non-American teams. Plus, not to sound anti-American or whatever, if a part I need is made better (or only) in another country, I would rather use it than not use it simply because it's not made in my country.

My fiftieth of a dollar.

Re: Made in America
 

short answer is NO. The experience that students get from this program far out weighs the costs that would be required to make everything in the US. Also remember that FIRST is an international programs with students from many other countries including Canada, Israel, Brazil, Mexico, China and more.

I also think that it is more important to be designed here than built here, FIRST is all about getting students to enter science, technology, engineering and math careers and while I am sure there are a large number of FIRST students who enter skilled trades in mfg, the focus is on the design side. The fabrication which students get to do during the build season makes them better designers as you can't design what you don't know how to build.


All that being said there are suppliers in FIRST who make most of their products in the USA, if you feel strongly about this part make your voice heard with your team's budget. On my team we buy the products that best fit our robot's design and are of the highest quality regardless of the country of origin.

Re: Made in America
 

I don't know where the CIMs are made, but the company that makes them, Chiaphua, is based in Hong Kong. Do you like your CIMs?

Anyway, it's a global program and a global world.

Re: Made in America
 

I do believe the FIRST family of programs does do a good job of exposing students to the fact that globalization and localization does in fact exist. Teams are encouraged to utilize their local resources (harvesting motors from local junkyards, part fabrication from nearby sponsors) as well as source materials and parts from global suppliers (McMaster-Carr and the like). Teams are tasked with tracking these through the Bill of Materials.
So each team does have an opportunity to discuss the origin of the parts used on the robot, and each team has the opportunity to source parts locally.
I'd think that if a team did create an elegant, effective design using only locally sourced materials, and could present that fact effectively, judges could be very interested to hear about that.

Re: Made in America
 

Whippet has a strong point. If we make all parts in the US, the many hundred teams outside the US will have a disadvantage because everything needs to come from the US. That means there will be forced tariffs and those teams will have to pay more. FIRST is, as Whippet said, an international organization (i don't get why they use USFIRST). It already takes a while for some teams to receive their kits. It would take even longer if they needed to wait for shipping from the US for basic parts. What if they broke a part that they didn't have extras of, the week build season ends? They wouldn't have enough time to order from US, but may be able to go to a hardware store.

Samsung is a company based out of Korea. They produce very powerful mobile processors that can be used onboard the robot to create a high-performance preprocessing system. Out of the US, I can only think of TI as the closest competitor to Samsung for high performance boards, capable of running Linux. Blocking Samsung would create a possible monopoly for TI and it's very powerful A15 chips!

Also, it is important to note that a lot of parts come from China. It is not only cheap, but many parts get the job done successfully.

Re: Made in America
 

FIRST was not always an "international organization." It took several years before there were any Canadian teams, and a few more before Brazillians joined the party. FIRST did not have an event outside of North America until the pilot Israel regional in 2005. The organization was originally called US FIRST, and had a more US-centric goal. It used the name "US FIRST" on its literature until at least 1997. There's still a reason you will hear comments about the US' ranking in the world at many FIRST events. While the mission of FIRST is international now, there is some validity in the history of the organization.

Re: Made in America
 

And FIRST is legally the "United States Foundation For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology." But FIRST is more than just the US non-profit.

Re: Made in America
 

International teams total about 300-400. FIRST is showing 241 teams in Canada for the 2014 season, and Canada is by far the largest non-US country in FIRST.

As it is, Canadian teams ordering from suppliers other than VexPro's Canadian office get dinged big time for shipping/import taxes, and long lead times. Other international teams from non-NAFTA member nations would additionally have to pay import duties on robot parts made in the USA.

Teams in Brazil and Australia often wait weeks into build season to even get their KOP.

FIRST uses the name USFIRST, because that's the legal name of the organization. It is officially the "United States Foundation For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology".

Besides: I don't know what you're looking at. Most robot parts that aren't motors come from American companies already. (Innovation First Inc. and AndyMark Inc.) I realize, though that these American companies may outsource production of their parts to Asia.

Re: Made in America
 

How about we make parts in America that are so amazing that everyone will want to buy them.

Re: Made in America
 

I'm going to stop you right here. This statement shows a remarkable lack of understanding about the basic principles of economics, specifically regarding international trade. Trading with other countries HAS NO EFFECT on the number of jobs in the US economy. The unemployment rate is controlled mostly* (not entirely) by macroeconomic policies set by Congress and the Federal Reserve.

Please, please, please do some research about economics before making extraordinary claims like this.

Re: Made in America
 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

-Carl Sagan

Re: Made in America
 

I can't imagine outsourcing having absolutely no effect on the unemployment rate here. If I fire someone and outsource their work to a foreign entity, I've affected the number of unemployed people here. Internal purchases keep money in the US economy; outsourcing does not.

Caveat: Not an economics major. But neither is anyone else in this thread. :rolleyes:

Re: Made in America
 

You don't know that....

Re: Made in America
 

To add to that with a little nuget of trivia, while FIRST has been using FIRST as it's DBA name for a long time now, the legal name of the entity is still The United States Foundation For The Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. While it's focus has obviously shifted from just the US to international outreach, due to the legal name once and a while you will still see US FIRST on things.

Re: Made in America
 

Keep it simple. The more rules and stipulations you put on robots, the less appealing FIRST becomes. 90% of the rules are for safety. The other 10% is for fairness and making sure the game is played correctly. If you and your team feel inclined to make sure all of the components of your robot originate in America, by all means, make it so. Other teams just don't have the money or resources to make an 'American' robot.

Re: Made in America
 

Of course, the claim you're replying to is even more extraordinary and shows an even deeper lack of understanding of economics. Like most things worth discussing, the economy is affected by a huge number of factors; politics and outsourcing are two of them. But that's not the point...

The point is, this proposal is silly and there's a reason USFIRST has distanced itself from the "US" part.

Re: Made in America
 

I thank the original poster for engaging in this line of discussion, because the opportunity to discuss issues like this one is a valuable way to connect technology to broader issues of policy and politics.

Nevertheless, prior to reading the original post, I didn't realize that there could be such a simple and elegant way to ensure the end of my participation in the program.

Re: Made in America
 

Lemme guess, you're one of those guys that thinks we should only buy American cars too?


But I'll humor you, tell me how STEM jobs (which are what we are trying to encourage students to go into) are impacted by the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs?

I'd be willing to entertain the argument that software jobs are at risk. But I'll also tell you (from first hand experience) that there are certain jobs that cannot be outsourced for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, recent articles I've seen have alluded to software jobs coming back from India for a variety of reasons.

So, in short, I firmly believe that outsourcing is a specter that people like to point to to instill fear in us and get us to buy American. If I can get the same job done drastically cheaper overseas good for me.

Re: Made in America
 

There was a point someone made in this thread about economic policy that applies to this statement. It's below.

;)

With every manufacturing facility come the STEM jobs of the upkeep and oversight of that facility. Modern manufacturing typically requires technicians and process engineers.

Re: Made in America
 

Why? Ignoring the obvious international teams argument, why does a product need to be manufactured in USA?

A manufacturing job in China[or insert other nationality] is one of the first occupations for the masses to earn a living outside of subsistence farming. Additionally, it doesn't make as much sense to manufacture parts for big US companies in the US. It would not be possible for Apple to grow to its current size with US manufacturing. Are you saying that you would rather they built a small brand with maybe 10,000 US manufacturing jobs at the cost of building a large brand with 200,000 US engineering, management, retail, and transportation jobs? In addition to the international manufacturing jobs that give people globally an option that isn't laboring a field for food?

Millions of people in the US are employed by foreign companies. This is a global world. Graduates of FIRST will own or work for companies that purchase from and sell to most countries in this world. If anything, there needs to be a bigger focus on where parts are sourced internationally because it will give them a clearer understanding of where the advantages and disadvantages of outsourcing parts lie.

Re: Made in America
 

I don't know if current trends in FRC are helping with that. With the growth of FRC-specific component/assembly suppliers and the advent of Ri3D builds, FRC is becoming more about shopping around for existing stuff and less about creating it yourself. That's not all bad, but not all good either. Some outdated rules (IMHO) on "fabricated" vs. "COTS" items encourage this.

Perhaps someday we will have the "IF IT LOOKS LIKE WORK FARM IT OUT AWARD sponsored by Manpower Associates", or (for the robot with the most "Made in China" content) the "CHAIRMAN MAO'S AWARD".

I do not support a "Made in America" rule for FRC, but I do support policies that encourage teams to design and build more of their own stuff. I think that will inspire the development of talented and experienced problem solvers who will improve life for Americans and everybody else.

Re: Made in America
 

+1. I don't design any manufactured parts at my day job, but the lessons I learned designing and then having to build a real thing as an FRC students were invaluable.

I love it when the CAD kids make an awful drawing, and then have to go manufacture the part. It is a much more effective lesson than someone else telling them to redo it.

"The country's success since that perilous time [1942] boggles the mind. On an inflation adjusted basis, GDP per capita more than quadrupled between 1941 and 2012. Throughout that period, every tomorrow has been uncertain. America's destiny however, has always been clear: ever-increasing abundance." -Warren Buffet, 2012 Letter to Shareholders

I will continue to purchase the best stuff available from Mr. Market.

Re: Made in America
 

Sigh... Ok, this will be watered down and not technically correct, but it'll get the point across. Imagine an economy where only two countries exist, the US and China, and each is operating under autarky (no trade/outsourcing at all.) Now someone in the US decides to have Good A made in China because it was cheaper. The Chinese worker produces Good A at instead of producing Good B. However, China still demands that Good B is produced. China doesn't have any option other than to have Good B produced in the US, so the person fired from producing Good A is now hired to produce Good B. Thus there is no change in the number of people employed.

Obviously we've made a lot of assumptions (perfect competition, no transport costs, homogenous workers, only two countries, etc.) But, it turns out that you can relax many of these assumptions and the model still works.

I got a bit carried away, see edited version.

Re: Made in America
 

Am I missing something, my robot is made in America, isn't it?

Re: Made in America
 

I challenge you to give me an example of a FIRST component or part that is entirely made in the USA...

Andymark, VEX and nearly all other suppliers although they may say their product is made in the USA, the bearings, fasteners, gears, shafts-- component parts etc nearly always come from offshore. It is the only way for them to offer products that we can or are willing to pay for.

The reality of the world today is that we live in a global economy.

For those of you "buy domestic" types, you may need to rethink your choice of automobile. http://www.caranddriver.com/features...merica-feature

Re: Made in America
 

its enogh that as a team from israel we need to wait for about a week to get staff we buy from andymark, i dont think its fair if basic equipment we want to use will arrive to us a week after we actually thought of using it.

Re: Made in America
 

Re: Made in America
 

We actually outsourced ours to Canada since they are CLEARLY superior to us at hockey. :cool:

Re: Made in America
 

Thank you for this. It might be helpful for some in this thread to read up on the theory of comparative advantage. In short, it's quite possible for everyone to benefit when some work is outsourced.

Re: Made in America
 

That's the least controversial post I've seen in this thread... :cool:

Re: Made in America
 

Welcome to 2014, where parts from China are both cheaper and better made.

From talking to various suppliers, it seems like the US is a really poor choice for FRC manufacturing (unless you need super fast turnarounds, and maybe not even then). Chinese manufactures are much cheaper, produce a better product, and seem to want your business a whole lot more than US based manufacturers. Basically, in America, you pay out the nose for each setup, and in China, you're essentially only paying for material, because labor costs are so low. There's a reason a lot of high tech manufacturing still has a significant foothold in the US (such as aerospace and medical manufacturing, where profits are large because of proprietary designs), while large scale, lower profit margin manufacturing (iPhones, etc) is better done in China.

There also seems to be agreement in the business community that this disparity in manufacturing is because of the large number of taxes and regulations in the US. I'll leave whether or not this is a good thing to the amateur politicians here.

Re: Made in America
 

We bought a metal component from McMaster, I was pleasantly surprised how close to home it originated! You may have to zoom in to see it.

Re: Made in America
 

I'm sure Andy can chime in here, but I believe he has specifically said that all his fabricated parts are done in the greater Indiana area. That includes gear hobbing, machining, extrusion, etc.

They might be done from Chinese material, but I think you'd be surprised how much metal that is sold in the US is actually from here.

Additionally most things from McMaster are US manufactured (lots of bearings are probably a notable exception).

There is some amount of work coming back to the US because the gap in wages is starting to close a little bit, combined with the fact that lead times can be longer, customs are an issue, product can be lost to damage during shipping (salt water, etc), it can be difficult to communicate with vendors and make changes, etc.

It's kind of disingenuous to say that China makes better stuff than America. China is obviously good at certain things and not so good at others. I fail to see any instance in which China could produce something that could not be made to the same or better quality standards as in the US. You will pay more for it, but the US (on the whole) is better at quality control and process development.

I try to purchase North American manufactured products whenever possible, assuming they are of equal or better quality and cost competitive.

Excluding products like VEXPro which are of very high quality, the average Chinese product used in FRC (bearings, cutting tools, hand tools, machinery, etc) are somewhere between mediocre and garbage.

Re: Made in America
 

Amen to this.

FRC teams want things fast, cheap, and typically of high quality. We usually settle with a mix of the three but I don't care who it comes from; I want it ASAP and to last a season.

Re: Made in America
 

Pretty sure when a some chinese factory can produce parts for cheaper then a American factory, then the American factory is going out of business. First the chinese factories don't have to abide by environmental rules that American factories would otherwise have to follow. Then you have the obvious of cheap labor. That's free market/capitalistism for you.

Re: Made in America
 

I personally think this "problem" won't last much longer. There have been many countries that have been the "low cost labor" for industry throughout History. USA was one of those not too long ago when you look at time in terms of civilization.
Since the 1900s shipping has allowed for the "low cost labor" to be more global, but in general, the labor supports higher wages which increases cost of living which increase wages which increases prices which... until a new "low cost labor" source becomes advantageous.
China is just the current source, but there have been several others before it. The neat thing is we are quickly running out of potential "low cost" labor markets as countries keep developing.

I am very excited for the day when Africa really gets into the game. We are likely "10 years out"* on this.

*10 years out is the threshold for predictors to make predictions that could be 7-100 years out. If you predict 1-5 years out, someone will remember to kid you about it. 10 years, and you either look like a genious if you are right, or everyone forgets if you are wrong...

Re: Made in America
 

Oh why not, I'll chime in here. Should be fun.

First, Cory's statement here:

While Cory may be correct on the whole, in my experience, during the development of VEXpro we manufactured prototypes in both the US and China. We did extensive sourcing exercises to find US based suppliers for as many components as possible. In every product (note I said every product), the US suppliers could not meet my quality requirements and could not meet my delivery requirements. The FRC community would not have the quality of VEXpro gears or the VersaPlanetary gearboxes if we held ourselves to the "must be made in the USA" mantra.

Also, there is no way VEX would have been able to create the 300 VEXpro parts that teams are now using if we were required to use US manufacturing.

Now, with respect to the whole jobs argument, I can share one of three stories I have regarding the jobs debate.

In 1998, IFI started with two men working out of their garage. Now IFI has over 200 employees worldwide with about 160 of them working here in Greenville, TX. If they decided to use US manufacturing for the toy and VEX divisions, then they would not be the size company they are today. That is a fact. IFI literally has created 160 US jobs by actually out sourcing manufacturing processes that make sense.

Yep, we make a lot of our VEX and VEXpro products in China. We also design, engineer, program, test, and kit all of those products here in Texas. If you don't purchase our products because they are not "Made in the USA" (BTW, there are very strict US rules that allow you to use that sentence on a product) , then it is your loss.

Paul

Re: Made in America
 

Who cares really about being "Made in America?"

All I care about is where I'm buying from and the reputation they have.
I'd bet that 99% of what teams decide to buy have nothing to do with the fine print on where they are made?:rolleyes:

Re: Made in America
 

Yes, the quality of some things from China is appalling. But some of it is the best available on the planet. And exactly the same can be said about the United States.

The point is, any country can produce junk, just as any country can produce excellence. The issue is the price you are willing to pay.

We live in a global economy, buy from the supplier who meets your needs. Pure capitalism dictates that if someone eets your needs better, they get your business. And vice-versa.

Re: Made in America
 

Make your decisions based on the function, quality, cost, and availability of the product. Raw material might be from Canada, design from the US, mold base from Japan and production from China.

SolidWorks is sold in 80 countries. Designers and manufacturers are everywhere. SolidWorks is headquartered in the US but our parent, Dassault Systemes is headquartered in France.

My engineering colleagues that I directly communicate with are in Asia, Europe Africa, Austrailia and the Americas. I use a cell phone designed in the US and manufactured in China. My Lenovo computer was manufactured in the US. I own a jeep that works great in the snow.

This is the global world we design, manufacture, and consume in. Marie

Re: Made in America
 

At my work, we love to deal with France because their tolerances are within 2mm and you can't beat their quality or customer service! The only issue we had was with shipping out of the port of France and the 2 week lead time. There are a lot of pirates around the surrounding area so you have to make sure that your shipments are insured for triple the amount they cost. All in all I would recommend France over any US supplier.

Re: Made in America
 

What do you mean by "technology"?

Many participants on this forum would agree that our friends from Clear lake (118) design some of the most amazing and inspiring robots. They did not "outsource" that design work. I don't think 254's 6 second climber was outsource either.

If you are talking about parts, you will have to find a new control system. National Instruments manufactures a lot of their products in Hungary. One of the other posters has already pointed out the Solidworks is based in France. It is a fair bet that most of the chips (IC's) used in the the various electronic modules, motor controllers etc. have foreign content even if the chip is branded with a US-based manufacturer. FIRST would no longer be able to continue with FIRST LEGO League since LEGO is based in Denmark. In my day job, there are instances where there are no US-based manufacturers of suitable parts.

What about your students, mentors and the teachers/professors at the universities your FRC alumni aspire to attend? Do they have to be "made in America" to participate in FIRST?

Re: Made in America
 

^^^^

+10

Thanks to Philso and everyone else who has pointed out the flaws in the premise that started this thread.

Re: Made in America
 

For the most part, when we purchase imported Common Off The Shelf components (also known as COTS), most of the profit from COTS is made by the foreign manufacturer. A large degree of imported COTS on our robots also means a large amount of money and technology jobs are flowing out of America.

In my opinion, this is the problem that needs solving.

We are trying to inspire future engineers, engineers we hope will have jobs when they graduate. Is imported COTS this best long term use of our money? Is teaching future engineers to rely upon imported COTS the best long term strategy?

Re: Made in America
 

This is a question that should have been asked by the previous generation 20 years ago.

The only way to bring this production back to this side of the pond is to automate the h3!! out of our manufacturing industries to remove labor costs. Otherwise you're just going to have to pay 2-3 times the cost for all offshore-made goods.

Ask yourself, is it fair to pull all these jobs away from other countries?

If you can wrap your head around the fact that we're all stuck on this rock spinning through space together then it really doesn't matter if you're helping someone on the other side of the world feed their family or your neighbour.

Re: Made in America
 

This is a decision that each team deserves to make themselves. Putting official FIRST rules on such issues puts too much political emphasis on the inspiration side of this program. Plus there's the whole international aspect of this program that's been mentioned numerous times in this thread.

Your questions are great, and they should be discussed with your team.
I know that my team makes decisions about buying parts based on weighing various values, like reliability, customer service, cost and purchasing local as much as possible. Some values are weighed more than others. It depends on the part, time of year and need.

If FIRST put an official rule on something like this, it would take away important discussions that individual teams can have about personal team values.

Re: Made in America
 

One of the biggest lessons I wish i had learned in high school is how to work with foreign vendors. As I am now working for one of the largest toy producers in the US I working with China, India, and Ireland on a daily bases.

The learning curve is steep. The language divide is wide.
Take every opportunity you have to learn something more.

Re: Made in America
 

One could also make the case that we as FIRST teams are exploiting the environment and ruining it for future generations. After all, we are using mined materials, fossil fuel products, and a good deal of energy (especially considering the number of overnight orders we place). Some teams are even sponsored by oil and gas companies! Lacking any specific data about FIRST competitions and teams as polluters, I'll go ahead and make the broad assertion that we are having a substantial negative impact. What should we do? Petition FIRST to require that teams only use certified recycled materials? Eliminate plastics such as polycarbonate from FIRST robots? Boycott competitions that don't show a measured reduction in energy usage? Quit?

Like everything else we do, participating in FIRST makes us part of a much larger system that has both negative and positive impacts over a broad range. Neither the "made in America" issue nor the hypothetical "polluter" issue is simple; both are real, but are so complex that the proposed solution (making it a requirement that FIRST use only "made in America" parts, in this case) would do nothing more than serve as a political gesture that would alienate some, and entirely fail to solve the problem, while making the FIRST experience significantly poorer overall.

Re: Made in America
 

[quote=JackS;1347529]I'm going to stop you right here. This statement shows a remarkable lack of understanding about the basic principles of economics, specifically regarding international trade. Trading with other countries HAS NO EFFECT on the number of jobs in the US economy.

As an engineer that has changed companies at least four times when the business went overseas, yes, economics decides how many jobs a country has, but technology decides which countries have engineering jobs. I'm a fan of being an engineer and of doing it in US too. And I want kids in the US to be able to be engineers if they want.

But that being said, FIRST is about ENGINEERING and STEM in general and engineering and stem is about the future success of humans altogether regardless of country.

Without teaching people to be innovators, the human race will be at risk.
my two cents.

Re: Made in America
 

I am glad this was pointed out.

As far as the pollution is concerned - that point you make here has crossed my mind several times.
The question we should ask ourselves in response:
was generating these waste products going to produce something worth doing it?

I'd like to say as an engineer that engineering should not just be about meeting deadlines and making what you were asked.
It should also carry with it the responsibility to identify the risk/benefits of what you are doing.

For the waste produced by FIRST operations we produce engineers and people that are sensitive to the engineering mindset.
That fosters a 'can do' attitude where people are motivated to explore the possibilities that might otherwise have been denied.
One of those people might someday manage to make sustained nuclear fusion work. How much pollution would that save?

On the topic of economics:
As others have said technology comes and goes.
Economic forces dictate some of the forces.
The willingness of those who engineer in our society to work for less dictates more forces.

When I helped propose building a 2015 FRC control system I proposed building it in America and specifically with vendors of capacity in NJ.
Why? The deadlines were short and I couldn't afford miscommunications.
I couldn't afford quality control issues and I can walk into those vendors and look for problems but it would cost big money to walk into my Korean vendors and look around (I've done it before).

So on it's face I disagree that my motivation to make it my backyard was politically motivated.
It was practically motivated.
We could have solved the local tariff issues by local distribution points just like any other large corporation pulls off.

Re: Made in America
 

Perhaps. But do you object in principle to the existence of foreign industry? Or just to the existence of international trade?

Specifically, what criteria do you feel should be met for nations to trade amongst each other, instead of trading within themselves?

Why presume that those jobs were in America to begin with, and have now flowed out? It's not as if there was a time when American-made parts were the only ones on the market.

This is a fair question; so let's discuss how we might go about answering it.

To start that process, a few clarifications would be beneficial. Could you be a bit more specific about the meaning of "long term"? (10 years? Within our lifetimes? Centuries?) Also, when you say "best", for what constituency are you optimizing? (America? Human civilization? Earth?) It's not wrong to propose different policies for different periods and constituencies—but if that's the case, go ahead and present the framework to support that proposal.

Re: Made in America
 

COTS has it's problems which are often overlooked.

The United States Military is starting to discover that COTS isn't always the best idea. Sure you save money on the R&D and in the near term you offload the cost of production however in the longer term the price of that savings might be too high.

When a system that depends on COTS outlives the expected and projected lifetime it's entirely possible that the vendor(s) that provide the COTS parts will cease to be able to provide support when these systems lifetimes are extended to save money. When you are talking about systems of such enormous costs such as military systems it's possible to find yourself having to engineer parts anyway with experience that was never internal because of COTS.

So I would argue that using COTS parts engineered without full disclosure required in any system runs risks. Move the production source for the COTS part into a place where the language and style is foreign to you and that problem is magnified.

This problem exists beyond hardware. I routinely work on enormously expensive software systems that people bought and that are closed source. If you sit down and review the application of that software you'll realize you could: make it faster, make it easier, make it more reliable but you can't because no one wants to own the effort or invest beyond consumerism.

It's the same problem really. The idea you can shortcut the perspiration that leads to innovation taken a bit too far and no one wanting to accept that reality.

Also I'd like to indirectly respond to the question of foreign trade above. The issue with foreign trade is that foreign trade should not be mistaken to obey uniform commercial code or any sort of expectation of conduct. Literally many foreign 'companies' are extensions of the military industrial complexes that rule over their respective countries of origin. So in effect if these foreign 'companies' decide to rip you off realize that it is entirely possible to find yourself with no recourse (no one is going to bring military action over a box of junk). The exception to this rule is straight out capitalistic competition. For example: let's take DC/DC converters sold by several sources from all over the world. In the absence of contracts you can buy from any place at any time. So if these people want to rely on your business they best produce something adequate in that case because at any time you can walk away. Course that works fantastic till you allow monopolies on resources required to make a product at all. Of course the price to you as a product designer using COTS DC/DC converters 'protected' by capitalistic competition is that you have to design your product to accept DC/DC converters in various shapes and sizes and maybe with slightly different inputs and outputs and you have to have just enough reserve stock to buffer bad lots and additional delays (it's a balancing act). So in the end my perspective on this is not that 'Made in America' is always better. It's that my expectations of my country and the society within it are based on a lifetime of experience in my country. There are some things we don't do well here in America at any one time. If a foreign source can demonstrate to me consistent improvement over my local sources then I balance the risk/benefit equation in their favor because the show must go on.

The real risk is that everyone is too willing to think they can just buy innovation. Real innovation transcends the immediate transaction of funds and goods and leaves lasting positive impact on society. FIRST is real innovation. Look beyond the immediate product, the flow of funds and look at the long term impact. You can build a competitive FIRST robot with some cheap common tools or you can build a FIRST robot with a million dollar shop. It's not just about the money and the jobs.

Re: Made in America
 

Personally, I think that Supplier Selection would make a great discussion topic for a FIRST team. Catch phrases like Make in ... can be dissected, better defined, and evaluated against other criteria such as economy, ecology, sustainability, reliability, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_USA gives background to what the phrase means.

Making students aware of the complexities and how to research to get beyond the catch-phrases, will allow them to make informed choices on their robot, team tshirts, website hosting, etc. It can also be helpful in their daily actions outside of FIRST.

A first step might be to research some of the elements in the KOP. Basic NI information is available on ni.com/company, and additional details of our own supplier selection criteria is available from there. Annual reports such as http://biz.yahoo.com/e/140220/nati10-k.html will provide additional material.

I'd be curious to hear about the outcome of such a discussion.

Greg McKaskle

Re: Made in America
 

Nationalism is dumb, it's saying I'm better than you because of where I or my parents were born.

Counterpoint to 'money flowing overseas' is Walmart. They have huge revenues, but suck money out of communities to do so, sending it to shareholders and the Waltons, 6 of whom have the same wealth (~$90B0 as the bottom 42% of this country. The money is staying in this country, but you don't see that in the salaries or benefits of the people that work for Walmart.

Re: Made in America
 

Nationalism might be dumb - but competing for the best of something is not by necessity nationalism.
The problem with nationalism is that there's often no actual measurement involved - just bias.

It would be difficult to prove that the Walmart wealth is entirely within America even if the owners of that wealth are in America. With our complicated tax codes there's every reason to believe that Walmart has accountants smart enough to offshore considerable amounts of money that they don't need to pay for their workforce or operations in America. Hence the value in not adding to the cost of the workforce or operations in America that's money they have to keep here.

It's like CEOs that make $1. They don't really make $1 in the real world. That's just their salary and they live off the capital gains which are taxed differently. That's how Warren Buffet often pays less tax than his employees.

I work on Wall Street. Money generally attracts money. Money gives a single person a voice that drowns out thousands of other voices. Money can allow people to get away with things that the rest of us would rot in jail for. Money in the hands of dictators and other violent people can buy weapons that can do enormous harm. Don't blame the tool look at the intentions of the people wielding it.

Re: Made in America
 

This post deserved more attention.

I agree that America can't compete with Chinese prices, but there are other factors that come to play when deciding on where to buy from. Comparative advantage is a powerful thing. We can't shy away from these questions, and i'm glad this discussion is being handled in a rational and respectful manor.

By the way, take it from someone who's at his first internship in the CIS field: The jobs are still out there, but it's not a guarantee that you can get one straight out of college if you don't go the extra mile. There's tough competition out there, so students will simply have to rise to meet the challenge. America needs to step it's game up, and we are doing just that with this program. Imposing artificial limits within the program is the WRONG way to inspire students.

Re: Made in America
 

From what I've noticed, things made in America don't tend to be of the greatest quality. Sure some stuff may be good, but for the most part it tends to cost more and is of lower quality than imported goods.

Re: Made in America
 

Like the output of any group of people sometimes there are problems.
I've had good luck with some stuff made in America.
Especially when I am making it America :]

Re: Made in America
 

We have been saying this year that our robot is "Made in China" and "Assembled in America". We certainly kept the VexPro employees employed this year as our robot BOM has a large amount of VexPro product on it...

We have said before that would could not buy the gears we used to build our own ball shifting transmissions for the price of a complete VexPro one.

We have certainly ran in to some quality issues over the past two years with the VexPro product, but the large majority of it has been excellent. Especially the Ball Shifters. :D

It was very obvious this year that VexPro is providing the product that teams need even though the majority of it is made in China.

Re: Made in America
 

For various reasons, most of the respondents of this poll agree with each other that we should continue buying large amounts of imported parts to teach robotics to future engineers. Most CEOs would agree with you, buying imported parts is generally faster and cheaper than purchasing more expensive components manufactured at America's higher wages.

CEOs can get more product out the door and thus more profit using imported parts, just like we can get more robot into the bag mirroring that same corporate approach, the same approach that outsources technology jobs. Like a flu vaccine, is the cure also a modified version of the disease? This is certainly interesting to say the least.

Re: Made in America
 

You are still implying that buying parts manufactured overseas necessarily sends technology jobs away. It does not. There will always be a need for smart people to perform technology jobs everywhere. When they are performing tasks that are better suited to being done by robots or cheaper labour via outsourcing, their talent is being wasted. They could instead be advancing the technology, developing new solutions.

You seem to have a very "Detroit Three" view of how manufacturing should be done. The Japanese car manufacturers have been producing cars of similar quality to the Detroit Three for many years. By doing so more efficiently, utilizing technology to replace menial labour, and outsourcing the production of parts where it is efficient to do so, the Japanese manufacturers are consistently able to sell their cars cheaper than the Detroit Three. It is only recently that they're starting to adopt similar manufacturing models.

We have the technology today to manufacture automobiles in an almost entirely automated fashion using robots. The talents of the people assembling them in factories around the world are largely being wasted in the name of protecting their jobs.

I can only imagine the progress humanity could make if those people were being utilized to their fullest potential.

Re: Made in America
 

While the OP certainly hasn't provided evidence to support his assertion, neither have those who claim he's incorrect, beyond a single anecdote anyway. How about, rather than saying "no, you're wrong," someone on either side of this debate actually supports their opininos with evidence?

Re: Made in America
 

Well,

This article shows US unemployment rate for IT workers is significantly below the overall average: http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...stands_at_3.3_

This article shows a similar result for Canada: http://www.procom.ca/news/canadian-i...ployment-rate/

Those together would suggest to me that an ever-increasing outsourcing rate does not yield a loss of tech jobs in North America.

Re: Made in America
 

FIRST is no longer US FIRST, the last time they used the US FIRST moniker(wording) was the 1996 season. They haven't to my knowledge used US FIRST anywhere but the website since then

Re: Made in America
 

Oh really?

https://www.isek.iastate.edu/files/2...Input-form.pdf

Also, the shipping label on my mentor pin that arrived in the mail yesterday lists the return address as "US Foundation For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology".

The 501(c)(3) is the "United States Foundation For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology". Has been since it was founded. They've been doing business as FIRST(R) for many years, though.

Re: Made in America
 

Just take a look at my earlier post. While FIRST tries there hardest to use just FIRST as much as possible, they are still legally US FIRST and occasionally have to use that name when required.

Re: Made in America
 

Yes, they use US FIRST for stuff like forms and mailing because that is the official organization name but I haven't seen them use USFIRST anywhere other than that

Re: Made in America
 

Troll much?

Don't believe me, then let's have this thread sit idle for 24 hours and see what happens.

Re: Made in America
 

I recognize your main point that there is always opportunity for the best technologists to get jobs.

I respectfully disagree on this point because profit does create jobs, just as lack of profit eliminates them - Detroit and Japan are also the perfect examples. Detroit is bankrupt and Tokyo is the worlds' largest city.

Re: Made in America
 

I'm with you, Paul. Let's drop it. This is nonsense.