Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

EDIT: Per Ivan Malik (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=25)
I mis-attributed the quote I'm using in this thread. I've reworded the post as such.

I read a quote last fall which struck me:
This quote, which apparently is now so far removed from its original context (per Ivan) as to not be related, still made me think. This post represents my thought process upon hearing the out of context quote, as applied to my thinking towards FRC. I don't know the original context (I intend to go read up on that) nor are these thoughts based on the original context. The quote I read simply served as a seed for the thoughts below:

At the time, I vehemently disagreed with this concept, but since then I've come to appreciate that there is a lot of truth in it. While of course I agree there is still some very novel ideation occurring in the world, the vast majority of the things we typically consider innovations are really just combinations of old ideas.

In my opinion, this is especially true in FRC. (Let's face it, we're not doing any bleeding edge research and development here.)

My perspectives on ideation have really shifted since I've started meditating on this.

While every so often teams come up with very very very cool, and novel ideas -- these ideas themselves can usually be broken down into the pieces which inspired them. Mostly these ideas come from the "real" world. Often these ideas come from past FRC robots. Sometimes these ideas come from CURRENT FRC robots.

There has been a lot of talk this year about teams "copying" designs. Lots of teams claiming "original" ideas. I guess from my new perspective... we're all copying. All of us.

In general, people are very bad about understanding the nature of ideation and the creative process. This is probably why one of the most common questions for creative people is: "How did you think of that?" It is also why most creative people are terrible at answering that question.

Sure, there are novel and innovative combinations of ideas. Relationships between ideas that maybe most teams won't think of. Tradeoffs which some teams make that other teams disagreed with for one reason or another during the build season.

This doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is that many of us are straight up lying to ourselves about where ideas come from. In the heat of the season, it is rare that anyone tracks where ideas come from, even rarer when they get traced back to the source.

I think it is silly when teams say "We came up with this idea on our own." What does that even mean? Are you even sure? Who said the idea in your meeting? Do you know what in that person's past gave them the idea?

Of course -- if you do know where an idea came from it is always nice to provide attribution! :)

If you don't know (for sure) where an idea came from... you may want to acknowledge (at least to yourself) that we get ideas from all over the place, and it probably is more influenced by outside factors than you realize.

Something to meditate on.
-John

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

I couldn't agree more!
Quite often, as a mentor who has been around for 10+ years, I throw out ideas that come from robots I have seen in the past. Often I get attributed as the source of the idea. I always try to attribute the idea to it's source whenever possible.
Our "Top dead center" catapult design this year is exactly such an idea. We posted video of our prototyping, but included the fact that it was NOT our original idea. Sure we tweaked it to meet our needs but it is not an original idea.
Following JVN's thought, I'll bet the team that inspired me to try this idea did not originate it themselves either. They were inspired to use the concept from somewhere else.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

"Then JVN spoke these words. 'I am the one who brought you out of the land of bad design, out of the land of poor drivetrain efficiency. To these I bring you these 3 commandments:

1. You shall honor no ideology in design other than it being iterative.

2. You shall not claim an idea as your own, because even innovations come from a combination of old ideas. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

3. Everything must be anodized black for maximum performance.'

Chief Delphi said to the people of FIRST, “Do not be afraid. JVN has come to test you, so that the fear of bad design will be with you to keep you from following through it.”

Exodus 20:1-5

The word of JVN for the people of JVN. Thanks be to JVN.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Is black powder coat acceptable?

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Bro, I don't make the rules.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

--Isaac Newton

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

^ This is very true!

2011 was our rookie year, and the thought of designing a mini-bot was a daunting one! Our mini-bot team searched the internet and YouTube for inspiration until they finally found this really cool idea for a bot that used surgical tubing to clamp on the bar, and used vex parts for everything else.

We stuck with that design, added our own improvements, and we had 100% deployment every time we went for the pole. Long story short, we actually ran into the very team we got the design from, and they were overjoyed that someone had copied their design, and quizzed us left and right about the modifications we made and how it worked.

Anyway, our head coach once said that "Copying is the best form of flattery", and so if we find a cool or innovative design for a robot and we use it, we had better know who to credit!

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

To recycle from one of my earlier posts about RI3d robots:
The rest of my post is here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=39

I strongly agree with Jared Diamond that we have a heroic viewpoint of inventors and we deny acknowledging the system that allowed them to be successful: great education, predicate inventions and an environment that fostered trial by error.

My analogy is that is like a increasing the surface of a chemical reaction. By having more knowledge, inspirations and experiments, there more likely a great innovation will come forth.

And here is couple from Dean Kamen's rude realities:

The rest are here:http://blog.van.fedex.com/dean-kamen-innovation

I think that a team that seeks to be original won't be not guaranteed that they are innovative. However their endeavor can still inspire other ideas.

In essences the topic is about the nature of inspiration: we take in knowledge and experiences from many sources including predicate devices, process it to make connections and create an ensemble of connections called an idea. Inspiration is a funny thing in our minds and it can come in so many forms. sometimes inspiration leads to copying, all the connections point to copying being the best idea.

so the question for copying is moral. That is a personal choice for many people. Why is copying bad in education, because it denies one connections forged through education. Choosing not to be influence by another idea to avoid copying is the same thing, one is choosing to deny potential connections to create ideas. To me copying homework and choosing to not to copy an innovative design are the same thing, your keeping your mind close.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

In 2014, the Average Joes will be standing on the shoulders of JVN.

So will many other FRC teams. Our performance in competition will depend on how well we have iteratively moved the details toward perfection.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

The Gurney Flap is one of my favorite examples of this. Some auto racers thought they invented it in the 70s, but it turns out that it had been discovered in the early 1930s! Even if it's new to you, you probably aren't the first guy or gal to have that problem.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

"You didn't build that" - Barack Obama

We all stand on the shoulders of giants. None of us invented the wheel or Polycarbonate. However, that doesn't downplay the value of the smallest invention, innovation, act of creativity, or plain old hard work. Most people that stand on the shoulders of giants just sit back and enjoy the view. Few are inclined or able to build on what they started with.

There is a difference between "copying" and "innovating". If an idea or relationship is so obscure or remote that we can't even trace it back to its origin, then there is a good chance that some innovation may have been involved. Perhaps not so much if it is something you saw on Youtube yesterday.

FIRST is not about building robots. It is about building thinkers and problem solvers. Even though we often use other peoples ideas or products (our robot is full of stuff from Vex, AM, and Banebots), I still think it is important to encourage "original thought".

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

I feel like the value of a purely original idea is becoming lessened with the internet age. It is too easy for billions of people to hop online and spout out their every thought, and it is well documented. I have heard people claim wistfully, "I thought of that years ago! I could have gotten rich!", as if it was that single novel idea that led to someone else's success, instead of all the work and risk associated with implementing the idea.

I strongly believe the secret sauce that allows some to succeed is in the execution of ideas. If we took a single Ri3D example this year, and had every team build a copy, you would still have enough variation to differentiate teams based on their execution of the build. In my opinion, teaching teams to execute is at least on par with teaching them to innovate if we want students to be successful in our modern economy.

When I look at reveal videos, and see those who have both innovated outside of the Ri3D/BB envelope (or even prior year designs) and executed a design wonderfully, I'm blown away. When I see robots that have clearly pulled elements from recent examples, but built a cleanly executed robot, I'm still inspired. When I see a robot at a regional that is very original, but non-functional, it is hard to not be disappointed that a team put in a lot of work and effort to create something they may not even get to play with (versus inspired by their creativity).

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

I've held that belief for awhile. I try to get my team members to watch as much robot video and analyze other teams robots as much as possible. It's way easier to build something new that works, when you can recall how a bunch of old things worked.

Here is a little attribution for this seasons inspirations.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

This movie hit on this point nicely
http://documentarystorm.com/art-and-copy/

@47 ish mins


If we are doing anything we are cooking, that's all design ever was. Sticking ideas together, there is a ton of skill and hardwork to stick them together optimal fashion.

AND REMEMBER TO PICK THE RIGHT KIND OF CHEESE!!

{ ALL IDEAS ABOVE STOLEN FROM MR. JOHN BELT DESIGN PROFF @ SUNY OSWEGO}

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Focus on solving the problem, not on being deliberately creative. If you effectively solve the problem, creativity is naturally leveraged as part of finding a great solution.

I have been inventing things my entire life. As an engineer, I am involved in tremendously creative endeavors on a daily basis. Despite this, I am uncertain whether I have ever had a truly original idea in my life. Most of design and engineering is recombination and optimization of prior concepts.

Originality does not really matter, Solutions matter.
A new solution IS original, even if it is entirely made of old ideas.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Exactly this. Often times I have found if you are deliberately pursuing creativity you will end up with something that is not the most effective solution.

-Brando

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

The best idea on our robot this year came from another part of the robot...it just took a brilliant mind to point out that it was the "obvious" solution for a different problem, too.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

I tell the students we are not inventing the wheel but learning how the wheel works and perhaps make a little custom improvement here and there.

Our team has no ME mentors that can be here more than a couple times during the build season. We have some wonderful young EE mentors and couple grey-haired EE mentors (me included). So we have real trouble coming up with innovative mechanical solutions (programmers with screwdrivers etc). I try to thank 148 when we see them at regionals and we are loyal local-pickup VexPro customers. But I would be remiss if I did not call out and thank JVN, Aren Hill and the RoboWranglers for all of their ideas we reuse every year. Our pickup this year is like a pickup we did several years ago but it was inspired by a 148 pickup years before. And we are using the choo-choo cam this year - we were lucky enough to be on the Winnovation 2008 alliance in Colorado and were impressed with both Aren and his design.

So thanks to JVN, Aren Hill and the rest of the RoboWranglers! They are the epitome of gracious professionalism. FYI - we have some deep VxWorks (15+ years teaching for Wind River), C++ and electrical expertise if you ever need help (unlikely I know).

Kind Regards.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Yup. I agree that most ideas are not "original" and are composed of pieces from existing ideas.

Like I've said in a thread before about 701's ballista/crossbow style launcher, I got that idea from the human launcher in the "Wipeout Zone" obstacle course on the ABC show "Wipeout," and it wasn't and idea that I came up with all on my own.

There's another reason why the I in FIRST stands for Inspiration.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

I know the feeling, at least my team does. Our ball launcher this year, though not based on any Ri3D design, was inspired from our 2010 robot. IT used a 2 stage shooter to kick the soccer balls and, from what I heard, it went off like a bullet.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

You're darn wrong, I did. Or more accurately, We did. That statement takes away the effort that went into, well, anything. I don't think anyone would lay claim that a system on a robot is a 100% original idea that came out of nothing. But to say that adapting the pattern to something isn't actually building it? That's just straight up offensive.

You're right, my students didn't invent the idea of a wheel, or timing belt, or gears. But they put them together in a way that meets our particular requirements. They built a solution to our problem.

Did they come up with the choo choo linkage on our shooter? No. Did they adapt existing solutions to our problem at hand? Yes. They did. Are they taking credit for it being their original idea? Heavens no, but to insinuate that they didn't put in effort is wrong.


Now, I'm all for borrowing ideas. I'm also all for thanking those who came up with those ideas (publicly or privately) or who pointed you in that direction. But I'm never for taking away the hard work people put in.


(And this isn't even touching on the context that quote is from, which I have far more problems with)

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

That Obama quote is almost always used out of context.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

“All my best thoughts were stolen by the ancients.”
― Ralph Waldo Emerson

-Hugh

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Our launcher was heavily inspired by a 2008 robot we saw on Kickoff, and the roller intake by Bomb Squad's 2008 bot. Even then, the launcher took at least a week of prototyping to get working, despite seeing several videos of pneumatic catapults showing it could work.

True originality is hard to find, but even "copying" isn't always easy.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

This isn't a quote from James Webb Young this is a paraphrase of a quote from Vilfredo Pareto that was misused by James Webb Young when talking about something very very far from the way you are using it. You can't take Pareto's theory about the circulation of elites, dust it off twice and apply it to innovation in general, it just doesn't work. Especially considering Pareto basically just paraphrased Marx and renamed some things. This quote, when taken in its original context makes absolutely no sense with the subject being discussed. This is a case of a secondary source cobbling together something and then a third source cobbling it again.

Edit: The irony of this is that Pareto's circulation of elites actually applies to the situation, but not in the way you are using it.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

That quote was meant to be sarcastic. I struggled a bit with JVN's post. To me, it seems to echo the sentiment of the President's "You didn't build that" quote - one I disagreed with.

Small, incremental, innovation based on new arrangements of old ideas does not just happen all by itself. It is something to be celebrated and fostered. There may be a continuum and a common thread between invention, innovation, and copying (and there is a time and place for each), but they are not all the same. If you come up with a new twist on something, you DID build that - at least the "twist" part. Not everybody did.

The problem solving process should result in getting the job done. Think it thru. Figure out what think is the best approach. Find a path to make it happen. Use your resources - including your experiences with other robots, machines at work, toys you had as a kid, old farm equipment, whatever. Don't reinvent the wheel if you don't have to. Do the hard work. Give credit where you can. However, when our "big picture" problem solving process starts out by looking at others' solutions, I think we are missing an important opportunity that FIRST offers. The robot is an object lesson to inspire and teach young people about how things work, not a product to be developed, manufactured and sold at a profit to deliver maximum shareholder value. There's a reason the "Kit of parts" doesn't come with detailed plans and instructions for the whole robot.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

I'd like to use this excellent thread to talk about one of the ideas that most sticks with me from growing up with a professor of physics while doing engineering work for my FRC team. Here's what I understand to be true about the difference between science and engineering.

Science is primarily about being creative, and trying new things out. Sure, scientists do stand on the shoulders of giants, and try to replicate others' results, but what scientists are remembered for isn't whether or not they were really good at doing something that someone else already did. They're remembered for new results, new connections, and new theories. The job of scientists really begins and ends with creativity. Hardly anyone remembers who experimentally verified special relativity. Everyone remembers Einstein.

Engineers, on the other hand, aren't generally judged by whether or not why're being creative. They're judged by the quality of a solution they come up with, whether they designed it from scratch or copied if out of an issue of popular mechanics. Engineers are renowned for what they end up creating, and not it's novelty. Van Braun didn't design the first rocket, he "merely" managed to put together a remarkably effective solution to a very difficult problem in the Saturn V. Steve Jobs didn't invent the smartphone, or the touchscreen. He "merely" put it together really well. Engineering is about solutions, not creativity.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Engineering is judged by the effectiveness of the solution, not its creativity. However, there are few effective solutions that don't involve the creative application of lessons learned elsewhere.

Innovators aren't just lucky because they get to stand on the shoulders of giants while everyone else is crawling in the mud. Everybody stands on those same shoulders, but innovators raise them up just a bit higher.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

The saying that always comes to mind when thinking about this topic is:
"steal from the best, design the rest"

Now I don't mean literally steal, more take inspiration from and adapt to your teams strategies (and more importantly available resources). Individual mechanisms may draw heavy from other teams, but the integration of systems, material choices, and fabrication methods may differ greatly.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

You are in good company.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

From a different perspective -

Over the weekend I watched a student struggle to set up a homework problem from his trig class; he just couldn't figure it out. He went back and re-read the problem and all of sudden said "Wait, we did a problem just like this in physics!" and started erasing. After that he was done with his homework very quickly and headed off to the Bot Shop.

Love it when that happens!

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

Ivan,
Thank you for your comments, and for keeping me honest. I'll admit to not be familiar with the original source material, or the out of context usage by Young. I've asked a CD moderator to edit my initial post accordingly.

I intend to read up on the original context based on your comments, but the quote itself (perhaps only when taken out of context) simply seeded a new train of thought in my mind. This train of thought is what I posted here on Saturday, and has started what I believe to be an interesting and productive discussion.

I'm not trying to attribute any of my thoughts to Young, Pareto, or Marx in this case, but merely was trying to provide correct attribution to the quote which I read (in a fourth completely unrelated and un-cited context) which got me thinking about ideation within FRC.

This entire discussion seems a little too meta to be believed. :)

-John

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

I think good ideas come from being in the proper mindset for making good ideas. If you've mentally prepared properly, a supposedly "brilliant" idea you created would have struck you as simply the "right" one, or even just a "good" one, when you made it.

Re: Inspiration, Ideation & Copying
 

In the context of discussion of inspiration, this is a perfect case demonstrating how inspiration can come from anywhere.

You read a passage and it inspires greater meaning. I am reading The Adventure of Tom Sawyer and the chapter where tom has to paint a fence has inspired several thoughts about my career aspirations.

In the spirit of your original post, there is something wonderful about forging new connections with inspiration.