So after all of this - has anyone ruled with authority that using batteries for ballast in 2014 is illegal?

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

Yes. First Headquarters ruled they are illegal. They are really the ultimate authority on this. The batteries for ballast being illegal is really fairly consistent on how first interprets their own rules.

The events leading up to & the resultant DQ is a different issue.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

The check list is on the FRC rules web page along with the robot lock up form. I think most LRIs would consider it part of the rules even if it is really a derivative document. The LRIs interpretation of this is the one you have to go by.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

It is a combo of R5, 5.5.2, 5.5.4, and T10.

Otherwise, it would be one Inspector per Robot for the entire duration of the Competition to "Police" each Team to prevent the Team from having a noncompliance vs. relying on each Team to practice their GP and follow the Rules to ensure an even playing field for all Teams.

At 2012 Championship, I met a Team that had a Quality Assurance Specialist (just so happened to be the Team Captain). This person went through each Rule and the Inspection Checklist to confirm the Robot was compliant with all of the Rules prior to bagging for the Regional/Championship.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

OK. I never saw a Q&A on it and the MC didn't state that HQ had ruled the ballast illegal (just that they had failed to get inspected), so I was hoping to see something black-and-white "official".

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

You are saying it is the implied meaning of that combination of other rules. I mean explicit, i.e. "it is the sole responsibility of the team to ensure they have all inspection documentation signed by an inspector before they are allowed to compete. Violation: Red Card" or whatever...

I might be missing a point you're making here. I've not said 1 to 1 supervision was necessary. I just said IMO it is the responsibility of the inspector to ensure the checklist documentation is handled properly if they have communicated to a team that they are "good to go".

I think we might be talking about different things? I don't want to speak for 1902, but I'm pretty sure they all thought they were meeting all the rules. Then one they were unclear on: using batteries for ballast, they checked with an inspector on, which re-inforced to them that everything was again legal...

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

At South Florida the inspection team implemented something we see a lot in the Engineering workplace - Revision forms. All physical alterations to the robot had to be documented and signed off by an inspector that the changes still followed the rules. This puts the responsibility fully on the teams to insure they keep their change-log up to date.

It ended up being more legwork for the inspection team, but all-in-all there was positive feedback, and it made the finals inspection process go rather smoothly. I think we can look forward to other regionals implementing the same next season.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

Has your Team tried to take the Field for a scheduled Qualification match without the white inspection sticker and dot attached to the robot or has the Team tried to use the Filler Line during a Practice match without their white sticker and dot attached?

The Inspector initials the Inspection Checklist and the Inspection Sticker.

It is a shared responsibility: The Team is to get their initial Qual match stickers (white sticker and dot) before taking the Field for Qual matches and it is the Inspector's responsibility to make sure that the robot is inspected before Qual matches start so that the Team does not miss their Qual matches. As with anything, the quality of Inspection will vary depending on the Inspector (we strive for uniformity, but everyone is different because we are people and we all have different skills in which we excel). Qual matches get missed when the robot is still in really tough shape on Friday morning. It happens and there is only so much the Team, GP Teams, and Inspectors can do to help in that much of a time crunch. Inspection is there to help the Team successfully compete, troubleshoot issues, and make sure that nobody gets hurt.

The Inspection Stickers are not a blank check to make any mod the Team wants to make after the Inspection Sticker is applied. The Inspection Sticker is only valid for the config at that exact point in time. T10 requires the robot to be re-inspected after a mod is made, and modifications are only permitted within the limitations set by R5. An Inspector has no idea that the Team made a mod unless the Team approaches the Inspector and tells the Inspector explicitly what was changed. If a robot has had a major change, there is not a fancy revision log on the Inspection Checklist; however, the new weight is recorded on the Inspection Checklist with the Inspector's initials and the modification is looked at by the Inspector using the same/original Inspection Checklist (the Inspection Checklist is on the same webpage as the rules on the lower right side of the page if you want to look at it).

As Daniel stated above, I implemented the Robot Modification Log form at S. FL to help the Teams and Inspectors track all robot changes. The intent of the form is to keep all Teams in compliance with T10, 5.5.2, and R5 to prevent red cards and QDs. This was a learning experience for all of us, and it did slow things down a bit for both the Teams and the Inspectors (I had 47 teams on Week 6 with 30 having been to a prior Regional; Orlando had 62 Teams on Week 3 with just a few having been to a prior Regional). From the feedback that I received, I think the results of the Mod Log were favorable. I had just a couple Teams not use the form as it was intended who crossed the scale for Finals with a significantly different weight than their Qual weight with nothing marked on their mod log form.

The Team only has access to the official Inspection Checklist when they sign it. It is the Inspector's and my responsibility to handle the official checklist. If a robot is officially reweighed, either the Inspection Checklist should be updated by the Inspector, myself, or a note should be left for me by the Inspector to update it if I am not there personally to witness it. The mod log form keeps a record of the latest weight with the mod description, date, and time of each mod that both the Team and Inspector have to sign.

Rule 5.5.2 states the LRI is to be consulted for all rulings on legality of components. This is both the Team's and Inspector's responsibility to know that only the LRI can make that determination. I do not now if the Team explicitly expressed and pointed out that they added batteries as ballast to the Inspector who did the inspection just prior to their heading out to the Field or if they just said, "We need to be re-inspected." and then asked, "Are you sure?" after the Inspector told them they were good to go. I personally did not hear the conversations between the Team and the ballast battery Inspector or between the Team and the Inspector who did the final reweigh; thus, I will not comment further.

I wasn't on the Field, therefore, I'm not sure of the exact rules that were cited for the two red cards or exact config the ballast batteries were in when the robot played QF1-1 and QF1-2; however, R5 states that the Team cannot add anything to the Robot that wasn't originally weighed with the robot for its initial Qual inspection. Basically, the Team downgraded the robot to play defense and had to compensate for the significant difference in weight. They added several batteries for ballast. The batteries were not initially weighed with the robot for the Qual inspection in addition to having more than one battery on the robot is not allowed.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

You can't actually mean this literally. You're advocating that an LRI has to be called in every time something not explicitly mentioned in the rules is encountered on a robot. That would be a very busy LRI that must not trust her inspectors and must like micro managing things. Plus, that's not what 5.5.2 says anyways:Which says the LRI is just the last person you can escalate to on an inspection question. Not that the other inspectors have no authority to make rulings on legality. If the other inspectors have no authority to rule on legality of robots, why are they there in the first place?

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

How would that solve this problem?

If 1902 got reinspected, but the non-LRI inspector that signed off did so in error, how does having a change log keep said non-LRI inspector from erroneously signing off on an illegal change?

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

Please keep your personal attacks to yourself.

I am the IM, as it states in my signature.

The Team knew what they were asking was controversial enough to have to seek an Inspector to ask the question can batteries be used as ballast before performing the mod. At any time in the past has more than one battery been legal on a robot for power, ballast, or otherwise? I'm 99% sure that the answer to that is no. Why would more than one battery be legal in 2014?

If there is any doubt, ask the LRI.

Actually, we haven't had that many part compliance issues come up as frequently as you make them out to be. I would say it is about three per Regional for us here in FL, and it's normally a motor with a part number that can easily be looked up in that year's part list to know if it is legal or not.

The Team who fabricated the accumulator that Tytus posted a picture of in the S. Florida thread asked an Inspector if it was legal and if not, why it wasn't legal. This question was referred directly to the S. Florida LRI for a ruling and explanation. We also had a motor where we had to look the part number. The motor happened to be legal.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

I do not see a personal attack in that quote.

And if that is the policy of the LRI that all part legality issues must be brought to the LRI, then that policy should be made clear to all the Inspectors and when asked the Inspector should either refer the team to the LRI or ask themselves. It should not be on the team to know to ask only the LRI for certain questions.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

Form or no form, you are asking how to prevent human error with an Inspector determining legality of components. No amount of Inspector training will prevent an error from happening 100% of the time.

Why are Teams relying on the Inspector to catch every error 100% of the time? Every FIRST Robot Inspector is not perfect; if they were, they would be robots (oh yeah, robots are programmed by humans and are also imperfect). It is also on the Team to make sure their robot is compliant with the rules. Teams have access to the rules starting on the first Saturday in January all the way through to bag day to check the robot for compliance. Each Inspector has between 30 to 45 minutes from Thursday morning to Friday morning when Qual matches start to make sure each robot is compliant.

The mod log is a record that is carried by the Team of exactly what was modified, added, or subtracted and the updated weight, time, and date that the mod took place. With the form, the second Inspector would have had a written record of what had changed prior to the robot making its way to them for the last inspection. The Inspector would have written communication of what to check vs. relying on verbal communication from the Team. "Added # batteries as ballast" would have had to have been written on the form under the description and signed off by the Team and an Inspector. I'm 99% certain that additional batteries would have been caught at that point. If not, the Team would have had the record to show the field that it was ok'ed by Inspection. Accountability for everyone.

Re: 2014 Orlando Regional
 

I was the person who was quoted. It's how I perceive the quote.

I agree with the second part of your post. However, I have had Teams ask specifically for the LRI in determining a ruling for legality of components. These were not escalated rulings either. Most escalated rulings I have witnessed are due to bumpers. After all these years, bumpers still continue to be a huge issue.