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-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Week 1 Analysis (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127313)

BJC 03-03-2014 00:20
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I also think that first should put something over the bar so that the ball can't bounce back out of the goal. However, I think my reason is a bit different from what everyone else is saying.

A huge problem right now is the multitasking that the referees are having to do. Because the balls are not guaranteed to stay in the goals right now the referees must hold off on lighting up the "can" and starting a new cycle.

Fixing the goals so the balls never bounce back out will allow the referees to push the button right when they see the ball pass through the goal. This would result in:

1. Less strain on the referees. The less time they spend looking at the ball bouncing in the goal the more time they can spend watching the match and doing the rest of what they do.

2. Faster gameplay. This should mostly fix the big delay between scoring a ball and waiting for the "can" to light up. The more of the match the balls are on the field, the more exciting this game will be to watch.

3. The side benefit is it becomes easier for teams to score because the goal bar is no longer de-scoring shots. More teams scoring high goals makes the game more exciting which in turn reflects well on the FIRST organization.

Food for thought
Cheers, Bryan

cglrcng 03-03-2014 00:23
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Ouch....I meant G40 at least twice in my post above. Sry all.

ThunderousPrime 03-03-2014 00:24
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglrcng (Post 1352362)
You are correct IMHO....If all did their full homework (or adjusted their shooters to fix the problem now...at least work out a solution to apply to their bot in the future as soon as they legally can), they would have forseen that those bars over the drivers heads in the low part of the upper goals, could potentially be a future problem for those w/ a flat shot, or one going through even w/ or after the center of their shot arc...(We did forsee a possible issue very early, so we shoot up through the goal early on our arc and will be missing those bars altogether). OK, so we are not shooting from the white zone to do so, but the sweet spot is nice that way, and can be done easily in auto & on the run too in teleop, so that much harder to defend against also)....It is a problem that should not be fixed any more than the lower chain fix in the upper frisbee goals was last year, (when the fix actually caused more problems w/ missed goals), than the original issue causing the chains to tangle up did.

Deal w/ that issue by changing how you shoot, as it really isn't that hard to do.
What most irks me about the bouncing out issue is the element of randomness and uncertainty it bring to a match because of the varied frequency of the bounce-back. You never know when the Invisible Goalie will strike. One high goal, esp. with 3 assists attached, can certainly swing a match and hurt teams that "score" the high goal but hit the bar.
Teams with both flatter and more curved arcs have had shots bounce out.

(Neither you nor I have attending an event yet so we are probably not the best judges of the situation.)
Reposting a relevant quote made by Sunny in another thread.

Quote:
Ultimately, it'll come down to the intent of the rails and how FIRST had intended for the goals to perform.

As per the rules (3.1.4.A), FIRST has no obligation to fix this. They are fine by how the rule is defined and how the field was built.

However, currently, it seems that the rail is there to protect drivers, and not to kick the ball back out. If this is correct, and FIRST wants to keep it that way, they ought to implement a change.

- Sunny G.

EricH 03-03-2014 00:30
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1352382)
Scoring Panel lag aside, I just thought of something with regards to the referees, assuming a 6 person crew:

2 refs are assigned as "Ball Refs". Each one picks an alliance and follows their ball. They rule on assists, trusses, catches, ball posession fouls, dead balls and goals. Autonomous shouldn't be too much of an issue since there are no trusses, catches or assists.

2 refs are assigned as "Robot Refs." They could divide the field in half somehow and watch the robots on one side. They rule on Robot-Robot interaction fouls, single robot issues.

5th and maybe 6th refs could watch human players, I'm not sure of the exact role of the Head Ref currently, he may have other, more important roles.

What do the refs think?
There's a particular way the ref panels are set up that partly precludes that exact strategy. But, IE, where I reffed, used a similar one.

First, there are only 5 refs on the field, counting the Head Ref. We had 6, so the 6th was off taking a break for a few matches. Two scored the goals and possessions they could see clearly--in auto, they scored the goals and hot bonus--and in teleop, they were the ONLY refs who could score goals and end the cycles. Two more, across the field from them, scored possessions and flagged all the fouls--in auto, they scored mobility. Refs without flags could call for a penalty via radio.

The Head Ref? Pinning, seeing stuff the other 4 missed, human players, dealing with questions, dead balls, disabling robots...

PayneTrain 03-03-2014 00:32
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderousPrime (Post 1352388)
What most irks me about the bouncing out issue is the element of randomness and uncertainty it bring to a match because of the varied frequency of the bounce-back. You never know when the Invisible Goalie will strike. One high goal, esp. with 3 assists attached, can certainly swing a match and hurt teams that "score" the high goal but hit the bar.
Teams with both flatter and more curved arcs have had shots bounce out.

(Neither you nor I have attending an event yet so we are probably not the best judges of the situation.)
Reposting a relevant quote made by Sunny in another thread.
Regardless over design of robots, the field has a glaring fault on it in that a ball can, in some instances, fully pass throguh the goal but still bounce on the field. Everyone followed their own given rules; the team scored the ball, the referees closed the cycle and relit the can, and physics answers to (almost) no man. The field and the rules are simply incompatible in this instance. They (the GDC) can either leave the issue or fix at least one end of it.

JTEarley 03-03-2014 00:42
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1352385)
I also think that first should put something over the bar so that the ball can't bounce back out of the goal. However, I think my reason is a bit different from what everyone else is saying.

A huge problem right now is the multitasking that the referees are having to do. Because the balls are not guaranteed to stay in the goals right now the referees must hold off on lighting up the "can" and starting a new cycle.

Fixing the goals so the balls never bounce back out will allow the referees to push the button right when they see the ball pass through the goal. This would result in:

1. Less strain on the referees. The less time they spend looking at the ball bouncing in the goal the more time they can spend watching the match and doing the rest of what they do.

2. Faster gameplay. This should mostly fix the big delay between scoring a ball and waiting for the "can" to light up. The more of the match the balls are on the field, the more exciting this game will be to watch.

3. The side benefit is it becomes easier for teams to score because the goal bar is no longer de-scoring shots. More teams scoring high goals makes the game more exciting which in turn reflects well on the FIRST organization.

Food for thought
Cheers, Bryan
My opinion exactly

BBray_T1296 03-03-2014 00:48
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
For Alamo regional Finals 2, you can watch this video and clearly see the live score tied 85-85, an then 624 gets a truss toss, which is never counted on the live score, hence the post match score change to 95-85

JohnSchneider 03-03-2014 00:56
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBray_T1296 (Post 1352399)
For Alamo regional Finals 2, you can watch this video and clearly see the live score tied 85-85, an then 624 gets a truss toss, which is never counted on the live score, hence the post match score change to 95-85
You can also see 118s human player fall out of the box and not get a foul...

PayneTrain 03-03-2014 01:00
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by animenerdjohn (Post 1352404)
You can also see 118s human player fall out of the box and not get a foul...
Quote:
G39: During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.
Emphasis mine.

What part of 118's human player falling out of the zone was intnetional, prolonged, or consequential? I worked with their human player, Nick (?). He was probably one of the 4 best human players at Alamo, narrowly beating out 190's.

Abhishek R 03-03-2014 01:03
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
1 Attachment(s)
Literally bumper cars. All 6 of robots clustered in the middle of the field in an all out fight over both the blue and red balls. Attachment 16462

cglrcng 03-03-2014 01:05
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qbot2640 (Post 1351903)
Someone may have already linked this...haven't read through all 16 pages. Here's the video:

http://youtu.be/iUi8ZEie7uw

Quick cycles are the key. The third team on this alliance was dead...imagine what would have been possible with an auto contribution and some defensive play from 346. They were a capable bot - played into semi finals if memory serves.
And 1772 was a prime example of an upper goal shooter that does NOT hit the pipes at the bottom of the upper goal and bounce back onto the field. (It can be done....Fix your bot, do not expect FIRST to fix the field) The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.:D

AllenGregoryIV 03-03-2014 01:06
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by animenerdjohn (Post 1352404)
You can also see 118s human player fall out of the box and not get a foul...
Quote:
G39
During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.

Violation: FOUL
It's a referee decision if the infraction was inadvertent, momentary, inconsequential or for safety reasons. They deemed that it was not a foul, I don't know which category they ruled under I just know they ruled it not a foul.

MrForbes 03-03-2014 01:07
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglrcng (Post 1352409)
The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.
...like, get close to the goal before shooting?

team222badbrad 03-03-2014 01:13
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglrcng (Post 1352409)
And 1772 was a prime example of an upper goal shooter that does NOT hit the pipes at the bottom of the upper goal and bounce back onto the field. (It can be done....Fix your bot, do not expect FIRST to fix the field) The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.:D
Seems it actually DOES hit the pipes... http://youtu.be/iUi8ZEie7uw?t=53s

This shot is also predicable if that's the only one you can shoot from which can make it your enemy.

PayneTrain 03-03-2014 01:18
Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1352411)
...like, get close to the goal before shooting?
Are you a wizard or mage or something


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