Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Do you mean the pedestal?

What were the reasons for fixing it? Did they have to change the light bulb? :-)

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I didn't even know that was able to happen....that's absolutely ridiculous.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Way too many teams who do not have an auton will start with a ball.

Refs have way too much to watch to be able to call matches cleanly.

Penalties and scoring is way out of balance.

So many teams don't know the rules.

So many alliances did not have a human player in every zone which resulted in confusion and lost time whenever a ball left the field and the volunteer had to figure out where to take the ball.

So many teams don't know how to scout.

If your robot relies on a loose ball sitting in the right position to be scored you are going to have a very bad day.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

This is untrue in two respects:

1. Only a Pre-College Student can enter the question box. In many case it will be the student coach but an adult coach would have to send a student to ask a question.
2. Also, rulings are final so unless you can convince the ref that a field fault or ref fault that influenced the outcome of the match you're most likely out of luck. (A match will be replayed if such a fault is found.)

The Rule referenced in point 1 is T13.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Look a little further. The section you quoted above (4.2 FIRST Safety) begins with a reference to the FRC Team Safety Manual. Starting on page 10 of that manual there is a detailed description of procedures teams should use when lifting, handling, and transporting the robot. The first bullet point there: ensure that all lifters are wearing PPE (safety glasses, gloves, etc.)

I agree recommendations are not the same thing as requirements. Teams should work safely because it is the smart way to play.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Didn't go thru all the posts, so I donno if this was mentioned already, but I viewed multiple matches online at different regionals where there there were multiple alliance balls in play (once all left over balls from auto were cleared.) That is to say, new balls were being put into play before existing cycles were completed.

And there were times that I saw robots waiting an inordinate amount of time for a new ball to be put into play as well.....

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Yes, the pedestal. Sorry for the mix-up.

By "fixing," I meant making sure it was lit when it was supposed to be. Often, it should have been lit after the completion of a cycle, but it wasn't. Teams would shout and bang the glass, then the head ref would fog horn the match, consult with refs/volunteers to ensure the proper pedestals were lit, and resume the match.

This happened less frequently on Sunday than Saturday, and less frequently still in the eliminations (only once that I noticed, but I didn't get the chance to watch every elim match). The pedestals were also lit quicker in the eliminations, in general (but some assists were still missed).

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

You are correct IMHO....If all did their full homework (or adjusted their shooters to fix the problem now...at least work out a solution to apply to their bot in the future as soon as they legally can), they would have forseen that those bars over the drivers heads in the low part of the upper goals, could potentially be a future problem for those w/ a flat shot, or one going through even w/ or after the center of their shot arc...(We did forsee a possible issue very early, so we shoot up through the goal early on our arc and will be missing those bars altogether). OK, so we are not shooting from the white zone to do so, but the sweet spot is nice that way, and can be done easily in auto & on the run too in teleop, so that much harder to defend against also)....It is a problem that should not be fixed any more than the lower chain fix in the upper frisbee goals was last year, (when the fix actually caused more problems w/ missed goals), than the original issue causing the chains to tangle up did.

Deal w/ that issue by changing how you shoot, as it really isn't that hard to do.
______________
-The lack of actually made Auto Shots (and the actual # of attempted truss shots flat missed), overall this weekend, was unbelieveable and actually very sad. (The game is Pick up, pass, shoot, catch, pass, shoot.....Design a robot to the game. Code to the Auto. Drive your hearts out. Train your HP's to avoid the G20 penalties at all cost. (Or it will cost you bigtime! and when it counts).

-Watching HP's inbounding or on the sidelines flat hang onto a ball off the field too long just looking for a robot to inbound to (many I saw did this, over & over again, on the many multi stream matches I watched this weekend), for from a full 30 seconds to even a full minute or more, instead of just throwing that ball over those 2 defenders sitting right in front of them, to their bot clear across the field...Had me actually yelling at my computer screen constantly.

HP's, they can't score "anything", if you are holding on to that ball in your hands. (Though I did see a few inbounders that were tossing them much too quickly and very inacurately too (most ended up in the opposing alliances low goal), and then running off like they had something they had to do really fast too...Like send or read a text on their phone maybe?) Take your time going back to that ball on the not yet lighted tube inbounders....It will be a few seconds at least before it lights up again sending you on another important mission to deliver it to your alliance.

-Those that can make those high goals and rarely ever miss, should never 1 point it unless you are sitting w/ 3 assists already.

-Last but not least...The Ri3D overhead wheel type / lean out P.U. is actually easy to defeat by a well played defender. (And I'm glad our team didn't go that way now). Holding that ball tightly is a must while travelling the field and while being defended.
_________________________
I am just so glad (after watching all those week 1 matches that I did),....that our team personally took the "back to basics approach" and made the bot simply to "play the game" this year, and left out all the bells, whistles, and pretty lights and other fancy stuff.

I cannot wait to see it play in week #4 (if what I know that bagged 1 does already, and I know what I see them practicing daily now w/ the Practice Bot is building to....Yes, the last few days we were making sure our HP's know where that "no man's land" is (as when they lost 10" of HP play area, we just knew that would make things that much tougher on them), and they are to stay away from it always. (It isn't natural for them though, trying to toss or roll that ball inbounds by pushing from behind it, instead of throwing it w/ hands on the sides of the ball). That, and trying to break the "human player auto error correction habit" they all will naturally have, by leaning over & reaching into the field to "get it where they actually meant it to go." (Let it go HP's...Leave it alone! Let your bot get your error drops...they can P.U. that ball up too as it was designed to do rather quickly). Coaching from the sidelines will lead to many G50 technicals w/ those arms waving & pointing all done while in "No Man's Land"...HP's, Do not do it PERIOD!

-Oh, and some of the actually scoring was totally erroneous...But they are just volunteers, and it is a tough game....let us all remember that please and be courteous in our statements OK. That will get much better as time goes on & before the Championships....that we can be sure of.

Book over...whew.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Speaking as a ref, on a 6-person crew, at a Week 1 regional:

The crew I was on was in agreement that we had way too much to do. And that the panels for input need an update.

1) The refs are keeping track of possessions, scores (truss, catch, and goal--and miss), cycles, AND fouls by both robots and human players. Odds are, something is going to get overlooked unless it's blatant.
2) Lag, lag, wait for it... lag. On some screens, the panels are fairly quick... but on others, it's a good solid 3-4 seconds. And when ending a cycle, on top of the potential wait for a ball to be good or bad for sure, there's whatever lag is in the system to get the signal to the pedestal to light up.


And... my personal hope is that G40 gets revised to a Foul. Particularly given the severe effects a T-Foul has on the score.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

There were several complaints with this at Mt. Olive as well which is why I jokingly mentioned changing the light bulb. There was never any paused matches that I was aware of though. There were a several replays some of which I believe were due to unlit pedestals.

I'd like to know what the issue typically is for causing the unlit pedestal? I assume it's just human error which is the cause of way too many matches being lost for teams who should have won. This is something we figured out on kickoff and unfortunately I think it will continue to happen for the remainder of the season. Hopefully it will be reduced significantly by week 2.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Does this mean teams should have foreseen the 30 second wait time from scoring to the lit pedestal as the refs wait to see if the ball bounces back into the field?

They've made changes to the field because of these issues before, it's not a huge stretch to do that here. All you have to do is put a plate over the bars so it's flat or inclined backwards.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

We missed a few shots due to those bars.

We also had an autonomous ball in the finals get stuck on the bars.

The volunteer had a rough time removing it from those bars and almost knocked it back onto the field. What would have happened then?

It is definitely something FIRST needs to consider.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Field Reset volunteers don't know who to give balls back to. Human Players should be given a distinct Red or Blue vest to wear during matches so that they are easy to pick out in the crowd of people around the field. 6 vests is a cheap and easy solution, and the only training it requires is telling the volunteers to look for a vest matching the ball in their hands.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Scoring Panel lag aside, I just thought of something with regards to the referees, assuming a 6 person crew:

2 refs are assigned as "Ball Refs". Each one picks an alliance and follows their ball. They rule on assists, trusses, catches, ball posession fouls, dead balls and goals. Autonomous shouldn't be too much of an issue since there are no trusses, catches or assists.

2 refs are assigned as "Robot Refs." They could divide the field in half somehow and watch the robots on one side. They rule on Robot-Robot interaction fouls, single robot issues.

5th and maybe 6th refs could watch human players, I'm not sure of the exact role of the Head Ref currently, he may have other, more important roles.

What do the refs think?

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I would disagree with this. We used the pincher method quite effectively. It also held onto the ball well at Alamo. Our major issue came when the arms were hit hard multiple times during eliminations. Redesigning before Bayou is already underway.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I also think that first should put something over the bar so that the ball can't bounce back out of the goal. However, I think my reason is a bit different from what everyone else is saying.

A huge problem right now is the multitasking that the referees are having to do. Because the balls are not guaranteed to stay in the goals right now the referees must hold off on lighting up the "can" and starting a new cycle.

Fixing the goals so the balls never bounce back out will allow the referees to push the button right when they see the ball pass through the goal. This would result in:

1. Less strain on the referees. The less time they spend looking at the ball bouncing in the goal the more time they can spend watching the match and doing the rest of what they do.

2. Faster gameplay. This should mostly fix the big delay between scoring a ball and waiting for the "can" to light up. The more of the match the balls are on the field, the more exciting this game will be to watch.

3. The side benefit is it becomes easier for teams to score because the goal bar is no longer de-scoring shots. More teams scoring high goals makes the game more exciting which in turn reflects well on the FIRST organization.

Food for thought
Cheers, Bryan

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Ouch....I meant G40 at least twice in my post above. Sry all.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

What most irks me about the bouncing out issue is the element of randomness and uncertainty it bring to a match because of the varied frequency of the bounce-back. You never know when the Invisible Goalie will strike. One high goal, esp. with 3 assists attached, can certainly swing a match and hurt teams that "score" the high goal but hit the bar.
Teams with both flatter and more curved arcs have had shots bounce out.

(Neither you nor I have attending an event yet so we are probably not the best judges of the situation.)
Reposting a relevant quote made by Sunny in another thread.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

There's a particular way the ref panels are set up that partly precludes that exact strategy. But, IE, where I reffed, used a similar one.

First, there are only 5 refs on the field, counting the Head Ref. We had 6, so the 6th was off taking a break for a few matches. Two scored the goals and possessions they could see clearly--in auto, they scored the goals and hot bonus--and in teleop, they were the ONLY refs who could score goals and end the cycles. Two more, across the field from them, scored possessions and flagged all the fouls--in auto, they scored mobility. Refs without flags could call for a penalty via radio.

The Head Ref? Pinning, seeing stuff the other 4 missed, human players, dealing with questions, dead balls, disabling robots...

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Regardless over design of robots, the field has a glaring fault on it in that a ball can, in some instances, fully pass throguh the goal but still bounce on the field. Everyone followed their own given rules; the team scored the ball, the referees closed the cycle and relit the can, and physics answers to (almost) no man. The field and the rules are simply incompatible in this instance. They (the GDC) can either leave the issue or fix at least one end of it.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

My opinion exactly

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

For Alamo regional Finals 2, you can watch this video and clearly see the live score tied 85-85, an then 624 gets a truss toss, which is never counted on the live score, hence the post match score change to 95-85

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

You can also see 118s human player fall out of the box and not get a foul...

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Emphasis mine.

What part of 118's human player falling out of the zone was intnetional, prolonged, or consequential? I worked with their human player, Nick (?). He was probably one of the 4 best human players at Alamo, narrowly beating out 190's.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Literally bumper cars. All 6 of robots clustered in the middle of the field in an all out fight over both the blue and red balls. Attachment 16462

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

And 1772 was a prime example of an upper goal shooter that does NOT hit the pipes at the bottom of the upper goal and bounce back onto the field. (It can be done....Fix your bot, do not expect FIRST to fix the field) The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.:D

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

It's a referee decision if the infraction was inadvertent, momentary, inconsequential or for safety reasons. They deemed that it was not a foul, I don't know which category they ruled under I just know they ruled it not a foul.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

...like, get close to the goal before shooting?

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Seems it actually DOES hit the pipes... http://youtu.be/iUi8ZEie7uw?t=53s

This shot is also predicable if that's the only one you can shoot from which can make it your enemy.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Are you a wizard or mage or something

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect FIRST to fix the field... they've fixed the field in the past when the field elements were causing issues that weren't a part of the intent of the field design. In 2012, they redid the pieces under the bridge so the balls would roll out more easily. In 2013, they added a piece to connect the chains so frisbees bounced out less. This tuesday's team update will be huge, and I'm looking forward to what FIRST has to say about what went right and what went wrong.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

You could argue that it was "consequential" because he fell out while diving to deflect his alliance's ball back into the field, so he gained an advantage while performing the action that caused him to end up out of the zone.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

__________________
Been there, seen that a million times (after welding of that particular frame joint in your pic...It certainly appears to me that much more than 50% of the weld was then quite overly ground away, seeing that the appearance of the lack of any weld bead is also present). It is a ton of work I know, and the same issues happened to our team during Rebound Rumble (we played in the finals, lost, then rebagged a known very injured bot after our first regional, and it saw us stripping our bot completely down in the pits, to a very custom and powder coated dual side intake frame, at our second regional in Las Vegas, because every single weld broke that there was to break, between (many slightly over ground welds), a lot of very active defense, and that nasty floor beam we crossed much too often. That of course, led to many other bugs after the welding was done too, and that robot reassembled in a short period of time. That bot just wasn't quite right until Q time was nearly finished (it was by then, but we had not shown the necessary reliability to that point that another team would/could trust)....Wasn't a good year for us needless to say. I hope you fare much better in your case.

Not a weld on this years bot BTW, as we knew it was going to be a very defensive hard hitting game. Though last years bot was for us.....It lasted. (And that one incident caused us to learn to go much more modular in the future).

You have one thing going for you...At least the carry in has luckily been increased to 45 lbs....That 50% increase should get you there. (Well that and a good pit crew I certainly hope!)

Good Luck! (Weld clean, and leave the beads please).

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Ummm...Yeah Jim...Just a little closer:D ...That could be the easy solution. Almost every shot I saw bounce back in, was much longer than it actually needed to be. And those not willing to change can always push it into the low goal.

Ok, for the ref's I might think a change is necessary (but still, to every bot choosing to be shooting the high goal). We are supposed to design to the field. Not the GDC changing the field to our design choices.

See you in just a couple of weeks...Can't wait after watching all this exciting week 1 action. Tough game for all!

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I too would like to see pictures. That robot looks a little familiar.....

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Do you remember team 1771's bot from 2008? We found their bot inspiring!

http://frcdesigns.files.wordpress.co.../2008_1771.jpg

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I would hope that he remembers 1771's robot from 2008 seeing that he was a mentor for the team that year :D

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Here is a picture of this year's bot at Palmetto:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Hence the reason the bot looked familiar ;)

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Ahhh - cool!

Martin - we love your robot from 2008!. It was certainly a major inspiration to our bot!!! :)

Another picture:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658765220825567&set=a.6587649008255 99.1073741838.320809081287851&type=1&theater

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I saw a lot of defense on the opponent's in the in-bounding zone. Several times, BLUEBALL got trapped between the REDBOT and the REDLOWGOAL while the BLUEBOT is hoping to get the first ASSIST.

More than a few times, REDBOT pushed the BLUEBALL into REDLOWGOAL or BLUEBOT pushed REDBOT into BLUEBALL and the BALL inadvertently traveled into REDLOWGOAL as a result.

It took a fair amount of time to return BLUEBALL to Blue HUMAN PLAYER and then to the FIELD.

I wonder: Will we see this called as a G11 or G12?

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I haven't read through this whole thread yet since I am on mobile but I was thinking to myseld. If you have a 1 ball auton and neither of your partners has one, would it be worth it to still put all 3 balls on the field? You score your one and IF you have a decently fast pickup and scoring device then to me it makes sense to keep them out to get those quick 20 points before start the cycle. Mainly thought this because if your partners don't have an auto at all, you might be running and gunning by yourself and those points will be key as proven so far. :ahh:

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Its not worth it because you have to get those 2 balls and, if i'm on the other alliance, im going to do my best to send at least 1 bot at you and stop you from getting those 2 in so you can't get any assist, truss, or catch points...

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

For later on I agree but after watching the level of some of these drivers...I wouldn't be confident they could honestly stop a decent bot. Not speaking for just our team. I believe that will be the case for almost all events after week 3 but prior to that I think it might be a viable strategy

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

The longer it takes you to get rid of your auto balls the less time you have to score assist/truss/catch points, no matter how much I slow you down that is a win every time in my book.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I would agree this is the fundamental issue this year. One alliance lost in the quarters because they weren't aware that they had never gotten the last auto ball off the field and played like they were in a cycle.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Well I can personally comment on that.

It was a great webcast. I liked having the full field view separate from the production company, but still having the timer, scores, etc. I know doing that independent of the FMS must not have been easy, but it was great!

Keep up the good work!

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

No. Even if only one robot has to score all the points (which should never be the case) you lose points by taking the time to finish off the auto balls. If your robot can score in the high goal, you can do a truss shot & get 20 per cycle; that's more than the 10 you get with each auto ball. All a robot has to do to get a possession is trap it against the wall; that's reasonably quick.

Obviously, having to chase down a truss ball takes time, but it also scores immediately. ymmv, but I think what we saw in CIR says don't put auto balls on the field unless you can make them reliably.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

We had two catches in our last finals match. I think there was one other catch at Inland Empire.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I only watched for an hour or so yesterday, and it was mostly superb. If you are looking for small improvements, sometimes there seemed to be music from the venue and possibly music from your streaming computer playing at the same time.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I'd like to see that called as a G12. We had this happen to us in a scoring zone yesterday where 2 red robots had our alliance's blue ball cornered behind them next to our low goal. You'll see in the video below that it stopped our cycle for 30s. I don't blame the red alliance for employing this strategy because they weren't controlling the ball, they were just stopping us from getting to it. Definitely smart but I don't think it's a strategy that we'd want to see in this game and the rules should protect this from happening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYMrE...are&t=4h56m44s

Nate

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Our driver was very deliberate about being sure to pick up those points during eliminations. Took me a moment to figure out what he was doing.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Turned out to not always be the case.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Truss points are vital to the success of an alliance

Strong Defense can completely win a match for you if there is no response

Autonomous can make or break an alliance's match

Scouting the defensive capabilities of a robot are incredible for alliance selection, because of the two above points

running 21 point cycles is incredibly fast if you're able to have a robot that can truss shot.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I'd call it a G25 Blockade. It looks like RED ROBOTS stopped the flow of the match for 30 seconds. At least the BLUE alliance flow. I do not know the history of G25, so I may be way off.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I disagree. Q&A has said that 2 robots playing defense is not "blockading".

However, it would be awfully close if not "possession" by the opponent according to G12:

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Are you all going to publish anything on how you ran yours? I really liked it in the offseason and now, and I can't be the only one curious to try it out myself.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

We were very busy scoring (191 teleop in one match) but still played a lot of defense while our shooter was scoring, and our initiator was repositioning.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I found Q189 stating: "Generally, ALLIANCE ROBOTS successfully trapping the entire opponent ALLIANCE into one area of the FIELD is considered "stopping the flow of the MATCH" and an example of a "blockade"."

So, it appears that a blockade does not apply.

But, I agree. I was also thinking G12-D. There are lots of subjective calls in this game.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

-Scout to see if bots "play nice with others"

-Edxu is right, truss shots can easily sway a match

-Human Players can really screw up a match

-Alliance selection will decide (most of the time) if you win, so scouting programs have to be excellent this year.

-quick two assist cycles with one defense bot worked well.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I was real happy with the Citrus Circuits streaming video also. The only tiny issue I noticed was the fade to black during camera angle changes. Sometimes they happened at just the wrong time. Maybe a cross-fade instead?

Thanks to 1678 for hosting the IE streaming video!

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Great stream, the full-field view is the best for webcasts because I feel like I'm up in the stands, and I'm not going to miss anything. My only complaint was that the score on your in-match overlay was often different from the one on the projector screen. I'd like to see the official score. Other than that, you guys did a great job with it and I'd love to see it for more events.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I am fine with hard switches in sporting events personally. Cross fades are better than fade to black, but cross fades are generally unintelligible while both feeds are shown at once.

One thing to note (didn't watch any regional but Alamo). When the MC is announcing the teams should be the only time the alliance station cam should be used. Showing the drivers during a match is annoying, and useless. We want to see the robots. Generally speaking I also hate to see the view of one robot mega close to a camera, it is cool seeing them up close, but again, I want to see the match.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Thanks!:)

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Thanks. Yes we're aware of the audio issue. We actually used Skype to send audio to avoid hardwires, but it had some reliability problems.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Yes, I've asked the students to prepare a write up (in part because they are seniors!) and we'll share it on Chief Delphi.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Loved the full field with the score overlay. It took my favorite part of the Michigan webcasts, the full field view, and improved it by putting the score up and removing the awkward fish-eye view.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

In the Southfield final 1 video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPlx4MOkVck -- it looks as if the robots are disabled a second or two before the buzzer sounds the end of the match.

Any ideas why? Did the clock hit zero when the robot were disabled or when the buzzer sounded?

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I prefer the fish eye view to the stood back midfield view.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I noticed the same thing in some (but not all) matches at GTRW.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

This occurred in several matches at Alamo too. The robot would suddenly stop moving and the buzzer was always delayed.

Since the autonomous lights and goals were sometimes delayed, and possibly the computation of assists, I think this may be connected to the other issues we have been seeing with the field systems.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

From what I have seen in the streams that I have watched fouls are huge in determining the outcome of the game, however defense is also important. There is no sense in sitting there after your alliance has shot or passed the ball when you could be obstructing another alliance from scoring. Beware G40 for it is always watching...

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

There were oddities I dont remember from previous years. Sometimes at Alamo, the clock would hit zero, the lights would go out, the robots would stop, and the buzzer would sound. Those events drug out over the course of at least 2-3 seconds. Odd...

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

This is probably going to come off as long, whiny, and un-GP, but bear with me. I would like the referees to LEARN the rules, or at least be consistent. I am only posting this now because I fact checked beforehand.

First, during eliminations, whenever someone from our team would go up to the question box, we would be told, "You need the alliance captain in the question box"
I will simply quote the Game Manual for this:
Second, in Q-24, 3667 (This is in NO way putting them down) got disabled with the ball between them and the opposing low goal. We ended up losing the match, due to that reason. Afterwards, we sent a team member to the question box to inquire if, during that match, we were allowed to hold up the dead ball sign to render the ball dead. The referee told us yes, that we could. Later, when we were at the practice field, a referee came up to our drive team, and told us they were wrong, and that what they told us was incorrect. Our drive team was okay with that, because we had not tried using it since then, and they had delivered the correct rule.

Fast forward to Finals Match 1 (we are blue). After autonomous, a missed ball is on the red side of the field, and it goes in front of the red low goal, and there is chaos (as usual) around the ball, and 453 (red, once again, NOT putting them down) gets disabled with the blue ball between them and the wall, and the red low goal behind them. Because of what we were told earlier, we did not hold up the dead ball sign (which is also reinforced by the Q&A here), yet no possession call was made on 453, which should have been a G12:D, a 50 point technical foul. After the match, the referees said that we needed to hold up the dead ball sign. This lost us F-1.

So, to add on to everyone's complaints about missed calls, G26 (sodizzle, Joseph, and Tom, I agree with you on those miscalls, I mean come on, BLUE BOX) and G40 (which actually isn't too hard to not get called on as long as you're careful and take a tad more time), if you are a referee, PLEASE read the rulebook.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I want to make sure I have this information correct to present to my team this week. I noticed teams were passing the ball over the truss to the human player to catch. If the human player catches it, does that count for a catch bonus? The rules hint at it, but are vague in a way and during the webcasts, it was kind of hard to notice the points being added due to the fast pace of the game.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

no must be a robot

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Under the definition of CATCH, no, the human does not contribute any catch points.

"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."


However, having the ball go to the human player does help ensure that the ball stays in the alliance's control.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

399 newbie mentor here:

I am pretty sure what you saw was 399 catching their own ball. Sometime in the qual matches, we lobbed it over the truss and went under to recover our own by catching it.

This was my first chance to ever see a regional competition, and I was so glad we were matched up. Our strengths complemented each other. your repeatable throwing skill made it easy for our driver to recover the ball quickly. The two catches in a row was amazing! Our driver is really good and I figured it would happen at some point, but wasn't too sure if we could catch the line drive throws. The fact that both were "on the run" blew me away!

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About the difference in scores: Our system is separate from the FMS, so we have to enter in data manually, so sometime we make mistakes. This was especially true when we were entering data for elimination matches, since we were forced to view the matches from a location where we couldn't even see the blue alliance assist/hot goal indicator LEDs or low goal! :eek:

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I'm 100% sure he's talking about 1678's over the truss pass to 399 in the finals (forget which match), there were two of them, and they were very exciting!

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Actually, he is talking about one of the qualification matches where one team trussed to another and the receiving team activated their catapult just as the ball was about to enter their robot, causing the ball to exit the robot vertically and slowly bounce its way into the low goal. Since the receiving team actively manipulated the ball into being scored, the refs counted it as a catch.

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It was Final 2 at Inland Empire. This video starts right before the two catches happen. I was amazed.

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I wanted to bring this up because it became a weird situation on Friday at GSDE. Early in Friday, a good portion of the teams (10+) had still not finished inspection. The queueing staff (including myself) were under the impression that a human player could be sent, even if the robot had not been inspected, to avoid the team getting a red card and therefore, 0 points. We were told by Robot Inspection that this was not the case, as per T6:

Some more wish-wash later, and we were under the correct rule, and then everyone finished inspection :D.

Just remember! ASK YOUR ALLIANCE PARTNERS IF THEY HAVE NOT BEEN INSPECTED!!!!

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I was at the Alamo regional helping the CSAs out. I will describe the common issues I saw, not to pick on the robots, but so that mentors and students can better prepare and recover when/if they occur.

As mentioned, it is a rough game and will uncover loose connections on a robot. I saw Anderson connectors disconnect, crimps to battery fail, ethernet cables pulled out, and digital ribbon cables come loose. Friction fits can only resist so much force. Fasteners, zip ties, and velcro are highly recommended to keep heavy components stationary and to keep connectors firmly attached.

Please trace radio power wires and check that it is wired as shown in R43 of the Robot manual. Late on Saturday, I was still seeing inventive ways of powering the radio. Most reboots I saw were not the cRIO, but the radio or entire robot. The log messages will indicate which devices rebooted during a match.

I saw more joystick issues than I expected. The DS doesn't know how many joysticks are supposed to be plugged in, so the LED on the left indicates zero or nonzero. The diagnostics screen and setup screens show individual joysticks. If your team connects a joystick during a match, they do not need to restart the DS, reboot the laptop, or reboot the robot. The procedure is to take hands off the joysticks, press F1, and resume play. If you press F1 with a joystick or gamepad off center, you are affecting the zero-calibration and may find that the robot is biased or spinning in circles. If this happens, follow the F1 procedure. Please make sure drivers are aware of this.

Please test your code using the practice mode of the DS. This sends the same commands to the robot as the field during a match. Some teams test auto and tele very well, but only in isolation. The transition between auto to tele happens once per match. It is important, so please test it.

Robot bumper rules, including color, are being enforced quite strictly. I understand that robots may be bypassed or estopped if the bumpers are sagging, broken, or molting.

I believe all of the fog-horns at Alamo were because a ball was reintroduced into the field improperly. They do not necessarily mean that the field is having technical difficulties.

Finally, if your robot stops moving on the field, there are a number of things to make note of to help identify and resolve the issue quickly.
* On the robot, observe the RSL and radio LEDs. You can often determine whether the entire robot lost power, can see the radio reboot, and can even see Anderson connectors with nothing connected to them.
* On the DS, observe the LEDs on the left side. Flip to the Diagnostics screen and observe the ping status LEDs and diagnostic messages. On the charts tab, you can see the realtime traces of CPU usage, battery level, and communications -- at least you can see the data for the time when the robot was connected.
* After the match you can review the charts data and messages using the Log File Viewer. It can be launched on the Charts tab, scroll to the latest match, typically at the bottom.
* Observe any dashboard or LCD message that the programmers may have put into the code -- a broken encoder, an impossible limit switch combo, a spinning gyro, etc.
* Remember what was taking place on the field when the issue happened. Were you pushing? Were you hit? Did the robot behave normally before the issue?

Once off the field, discuss the symptoms and observations. Determine some likely points of failure. Safely restore power to the robot, look at LEDs and cables. If a particular device lost power, tap/wiggle/tug the device and both ends of the power cable to see if you can cause it to happen again. Look for bare wire than may have shorted to the frame or another wire. Look for melted or pinched wiring insulation. Be sure to test sensors and actuators for damage. Most FRC code doesn't behave well with sensor failures. If you don't find the issue, ask for assistance.

When something happens to the robot, things can get intense. People may have lots of questions or theories. They may remind you again and again to hurry up and fix it. This doesn't only happen in FIRST. I hate to see robot failures like these happen, but watching a team effectively debug and correct issues is one of my favorite elements of FIRST. I hope this info helps.

Greg McKaskle

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Thanks Greg....I printed your post, to share with our team!

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Ditto Jim! Thanks Greg!

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Adam, you must have a stronger stomach than me! ;) I usually get woozy with those fisheye views.

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399's catches in the finals match in traffic were amazing. I hadn't realized the opposing alliance scored only 1 teleop point and was playing 100% defense until I saw the replay, and 399 still caught 2 balls and we scored 2 60 point cycles. Thanks for being such a great alliance partner!

More generally, this game is very exciting when an alliance gets rolling like we did in the final few matches. With the truss shot, catch and long shot, the ball starts flying and you are watching more than one robot at a time. After watching the qualifying, we could see how really difficult it is to pull off complete teamwork. It must be what the GDC was envisioning.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Doesn't the Human Player count for catch points? It says:

"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."

So a CATCH occurs when, after the ball is scored over the truss, the ball is either:
1. Caught by the same robot that threw it
2. Caught by a different robot on the same alliance
3. Caught by the Human Player.

Am I missing something here?

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Great post Greg. This will help us out when we have another problem with connecting and get back in the game much quicker.

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And then later in the Game Manual:


It says a CATCH is worth 10 points. Again, the definition is above. Therefore, if any of the above three happens, Catch points should be awarded, since if those are defined as catches, they should be worth 10 points once per cycle.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

You're parsing it incorrectly. Correct parsing is:

A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting:
1. the carpet,
2. the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS,
3. or HUMAN PLAYER.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I think you're misinterpreting the rule which, admittedly, isn't the clearest (due in part, I think, to a team update that rewrote it).

"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."

The 'before contacting' bit is applied to the carpet and the robot that scored the truss and a human player. So a catch only occurs when the ball is caught by another robot before contacting the carpet or the tossing robot or a human player.

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Suggest reading your post very carefully again. Catch is by a ROBOT possessing a ball scored over the truss by it's alliance partner BEFORE touching the carpet, the robot which scored the truss or the human player. Self catch and human catch do not score the catching points

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUi8...e_gdata_player

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Ahhhhhhhhhh okay.
Wow. FIRST needs to work on their syntax XD. I was reading it as:
A catch occurs when A, B, and C were met rather than
A catch occurs when if it is caught by a robot before A, B, and C.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

I may be wrong, but i don't think a robot to human player pass earns catch points. I have seen some teams throw the ball over the truss and have a human player catch it but that is primarily to have a reliable way to maintain control of the ball after a truss toss. It also greatly reduces the amount of time it would take to retrieve the ball after a truss toss if a human player were to catch it.

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 

Our team was doing the over the truss to the human player shot (we're shooting from the loading area), and I can confirm it doesn't get us catch points. We do it because it's a quick and hard to defend way to get the ball across the field while still keeping control of it(like you said). Plus, the truss points are a nice bonus :) .

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Yeah it is a solid strategy, and if you are being body blocked from moving it is a very effective way to earn a few points and move the ball down field at the same time. 2 birds 1 stone...