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BBray_T1296 28-02-2014 12:00

Week 1 Analysis
 
This thread is to discuss things you have noticed about the game/gameplay from watching the web-streams and/or being at the event in person, specifically related to in match observations.

For me:
-Defense is very important. Even the best alliances have to chase the ball around the field due to a well timed defensive attack

-When the red ball and blue ball are unpossessed and right next to each other, there is total chaos

-Teams that spend 5 seconds gathering a ball really slow down cycle times (because defense strikes at the worst times)

-Human players carelessly (or not very carefully) depositing balls onto robots greatly hinder cycle efficiency.

-Alliances with human players inbounding a ball onto the field (not onto a robot) tend to take longer to cycle

Jared Russell 28-02-2014 12:02

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
G40. G40 everywhere.

Nick Lawrence 28-02-2014 12:08

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
G40 is so heavily scrutinized and weighted way too heavily. Matches are currently being decided at it.

Also, teams currently are having difficulty simply passing the ball between robots to each other. It's pretty frustrating when a team's only way to remove the ball from their robot is by shooting it.

Teams are also having difficulty with shooter accuracy. It's also incredibly frustrating when a team has 3 assists on the board at the end of the match, after trying to shoot into the 10pt goal 4 times rather than just finishing the cycle by dumping it into the 1pt goal.

-Nick

pwnageNick 28-02-2014 12:20

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I would pay attention to cycles and how many assists should really be awarded. It's tough to tell but it doesn't always seem that the proper assist points are being awarded However watching the webcasts is difficult so it is just something to pay attention to.

Also please make sure your human players don't mess up G40 like it has been previously stated. Stay in that box. And don't reach your hands out too far. It will kill a match for you.

-Nick

notmattlythgoe 28-02-2014 12:21

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
The field is very crowded and the self catch over the truss is going to be very difficult.

idahorobot 28-02-2014 12:31

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I am seeing lots of broken parts. Robust construction will help.

JohnSchneider 28-02-2014 12:31

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Tons of balls being missed in auto and slowing down the entire cycling phase.

Akolbi 28-02-2014 12:31

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
missing auton can lose a match.

mrnoble 28-02-2014 13:08

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
There's just a ton of poor strategy showing so far; I'm guessing people will soon figure out things like G40, but it also looks like teams are trying to take shots they didn't practice, and thus losing LOTS of time, and forgetting basic stuff like you can't get a truss score with a ball left over from auto.

-High goal shots that are off target are horrible time-wasters
-kiss passes are where it's at
-don't take an auto ball unless you are able to score it
-the field is crowded; pushing power is looking better than evasion

Rangel(kf7fdb) 28-02-2014 13:12

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
It seems like foul points are the deciding factor of nearly every single match I'm watching. Perhaps add another space between the safety zone and the human player area so fouls occur less?

bduddy 28-02-2014 13:12

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Considering the amount of time many alliances are taking to line up, shoot, then chase the ball, I'm not sure Truss points are worth it unless you have a reliable catcher.

Thad House 28-02-2014 13:23

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I'm seeing the penalties and missed auton balls are the killer this year. And having a good intake and driver practice is very important.

Caleb Sykes 28-02-2014 13:38

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I find it funny that the present "safety zone" rules were put in place to help limit the penalties. It seems to me that its effect has only (so far) been to increase the number of penalties. I really hope that this will change as the HPs become more aware of their bodies, and aware of how badly they are hurting their alliance.

Jon Stratis 28-02-2014 13:54

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
It was added to reduce robot penalties. Human players are a whole other story, and any time we have human players introducing game objects right up to the field we have penalties for it. It hasn't been much in the past few years due to the restriction on entry - discs had slots, and if the cover was on the ray leading to the slot it was practically impossible to get a penalty; basketballs had the long slot, and teams most often were throwing the ball hard through it, which meant their hands didn't come that close to the opening; Tubes were mostly thrown over the top, and not passed through the slot. This year is vastly different, as there's only the low railing separating the human players from the robots.

Wayne TenBrink 28-02-2014 13:58

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
On the scoreboard, there is a number adjacent to the team number. What does it represent? Seems too high to be total assists.

Edit: It appears to be the current ranking.

notmattlythgoe 28-02-2014 14:01

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink (Post 1350997)
On the scoreboard, there is a number adjacent to the team number. What does it represent? Seems too high to be total assists.

Could it be current team rank?

Nathan Rossi 28-02-2014 14:01

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink (Post 1350997)
On the scoreboard, there is a number adjacent to the team number. What does it represent? Seems too high to be total assists.

It's the team's current rank.

BleakRNS 28-02-2014 14:11

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence (Post 1350944)
Teams are also having difficulty with shooter accuracy. It's also incredibly frustrating when a team has 3 assists on the board at the end of the match, after trying to shoot into the 10pt goal 4 times rather than just finishing the cycle by dumping it into the 1pt goal.

Yep. Looking more and more like having a strong shooter–even one doing poorly in all other metrics–will be mandatory if you want any kind of success on your alliance for eliminations at a competitive regional.

ToddF 28-02-2014 14:12

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
- The number of G40 penalties is insane. They should either relax that rule, or make a better barrier so it's clear where the human players can't reach. Just some simple tensabarriers would help.
- This year's high vs low goal scoring at the end of the game is like 2012s 1vs2vs3 robot bridge balance. Coaches MUST pay attention to the score at the end of the match to make better decisions about whether a guaranteed low goal or an iffy high goal is necessary to win the match. Bad coaching is costing teams matches.
- There is some great defense being played, and it's making the difference. There is also some poor defense being played. It's not illegal to hit a robot that's taking a shot. If someone is lining up to shoot, don't just sit there in front of them, push them around! Spin them so they are pointing away from the goal! Or, if they are trying to pick up a ball, get in their way.
- Counter defense also works. I've been impressed by the alliances which use the "middle zone" robot to keep defenders off of the goal scoring robot.
- 3 assist cycles rule. When it happens, it runs up the score very quickly. Three assisters, who work together to score 1 point goals quickly, crush the powerhouse truss shooting-high goal scoring bot acting alone. The GDC succeeded with their goal. If you put three of those powerhouse robots together, I expect to see match scores in the mid to high 300's.
- Last second truss launches win matches.
- The design of the high goals needs fixed. Scored balls are bouncing back out of the goals onto the field, with no points awarded. That's just not right.
- Web streaming technology sucks.
- An awesome unveiling video is not necessarily an indicator of onfield performance.

Rick 28-02-2014 14:17

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
This year, the human player is very similar to 2010. Small mistakes from an HP yield big swings in the score.

The safety zone was created to reduce G21 penalties from poorly designed and/or controlled robots. Instead we now have the G40 which is an automatic technical.

G21 and G40 were created to keep HPs safe and lawyers happy, but it has the potential to ruin this game.

G40 should be changed so that it is only called if a robot has an apendage sticking out of the field barrier in the area of the HP.

nuggetsyl 28-02-2014 14:24

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
We learned today people don't read the rules and have no clue how to score.

BigJ 28-02-2014 14:24

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddF (Post 1351003)
- The design of the high goals needs fixed. Scored balls are bouncing back out of the goals onto the field, with no points awarded. That's just not right.

I didn't believe it til I saw one go completely through and come back out. Hopefully they modify those shelves with a sheet of lexan or something to avoid bouncing back off the bars.

Ty Tremblay 28-02-2014 14:26

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJ (Post 1351006)
I didn't believe it til I saw one go completely through and come back out. Hopefully they modify those shelves with a sheet of lexan or something to avoid bouncing back off the bars.

I heard second hand that FIRST investigated that fix and it was deemed too expensive.

BigJ 28-02-2014 14:28

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Plywood? Corrugated plastic? Anything smooth :p

notmattlythgoe 28-02-2014 14:31

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJ (Post 1351008)
Plywood? Corrugated plastic? Anything smooth :p

Doesn't even need to be smooth, just somewhat flat.

The_ShamWOW88 28-02-2014 14:34

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I'm seeing lots of "side-coaching" by Human Players with hands pointing and reaching which may be causing some of the G40....Hands in pockets will be implemented in our matches if you're human player. May make more sense to roll ball into our roller system than reaching and dropping ball into the robot.

Definitely agree that Auto is a killer this year if you miss shots. Seems like it's better to leave balls off the field if you can't reliably put the ball in the goal during Auton.

Max Boord 28-02-2014 14:36

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
G40. Way too many matches are decided by penalties and with the average match score double that of a technical foul something needs to be done. G40 needs to be changed to a foul. If contact is made to a robot or ball touching a robot technical foul.

Just my $.02

joelg236 28-02-2014 14:39

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Teams either have no driver practice, don't read the rules, or have very inconsistent shooters.

I haven't seen a fluid match yet.

nuggetsyl 28-02-2014 14:40

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Learning also teams feel the need to pick balls up when pushing would work better in most cases.

rcmolloy 28-02-2014 14:42

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
The fact that teams can't hold on to the ball. I was seeing this during reveal videos and even practice matches yesterday. Defense is going to be huge this year and you really have to make sure you hold on to the ball well. If not, it will launched out of your robot with one big hit.

ToddF 28-02-2014 14:47

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmolloy (Post 1351015)
The fact that teams can't hold on to the ball. I was seeing this during reveal videos and even practice matches yesterday. Defense is going to be huge this year and you really have to make sure you hold on to the ball well. If not, it will launched out of your robot with one big hit.

^ This. I think part of our scouting needs to be whether a robot securely holds the ball. It will be nice to know if we're up against an opponent we can make fumble just by giving them a good hit.

bduddy 28-02-2014 14:47

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl (Post 1351014)
Learning also teams feel the need to pick balls up when pushing would work better in most cases.

This, right here... Herding counts as an assist. I know teams are proud of their grippers, but in a lot of cases they're not necessary...

Rynocorn 28-02-2014 14:54

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1351019)
This, right here... Herding counts as an assist. I know teams are proud of their grippers, but in a lot of cases they're not necessary...

I'm very happy that my team thought of this :) we can grab onto the ball with our intake without turning the motor so it's still on the ground and we can pass quickly.

I've been watching the palmetto stream and i have seen a bunch of goals bounce out, teams score their balls into opponents low goals, and teams repeatedly miss high goal shots for the entire match. Seems like a very frustrating game so far but I haven't been able to watch dedicatedly

magnets 28-02-2014 15:05

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Overall, a very poor performance in week one.

-Lack of decent prep for the majority of teams is costing ALL teams to do poorly
Most drivers don't really know what to do, ever.

-G40 seems to be a real tough rule. While I definitely understand the reasoning behind the rule, I don't think that teams

-Blue alliance gameday is awesome for viewing streams, but few streams are decent. They are of low quality, and often show useless stuff (stop filming the robot signal lights!!!)

-Scores are all over the place.

-Your alliance partners and opponents decide if you're going to win the match, not the quality/skill of your team.

-The high goal sucks. I've watched a team throw a ball, have it bounce out, pick it up, shoot, have it bounce out again, then run out of time. Unless this was an intentional challenge (which isn't at all shown in the team model of the field), FIRST needs to fix this. It shouldn't be too hard, it's just a hole in a wall. It doesn't get too much simpler than that.

Clinton Bolinger 28-02-2014 15:06

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Wayne,

I'm pretty sure that is their current Rank for the event.

-Clinton-

ToddF 28-02-2014 15:09

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Lots of teams designed their mechanisms to fit underinflated balls. I'm seeing lots of balls getting stuck in robots. (Or maybe it's the same robot multiple times.)

BleakRNS 28-02-2014 15:12

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
How often have teams caught truss shots? Catching seems even less common than 30-point climbs at this point...

Ginger Power 28-02-2014 15:17

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BleakRNS (Post 1351033)
How often have teams caught truss shots? Catching seems even less common than 30-point climbs at this point...

I've seen 2 catches in around 30 matches watched. Whether or not this is a true indicator of what is happening I don't know.

Xavbro 28-02-2014 15:24

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BleakRNS (Post 1351033)
How often have teams caught truss shots? Catching seems even less common than 30-point climbs at this point...

I've seen a few teams come close. 33 caught a ball once or twice but it's not going to be easy. Getting lined up takes time which by then, the opposing alliance sees it and can easily race over and knock you out of position. 33 managed to catch one in traffic but it was really tough.

Watching Alamo, teams are getting better as the day goes but G40 is killing teams. It has decided the outcome of a lot of matches.

- I've notice a few teams trussing the autonomous balls that were missed. It was earlier in the day so it looks like it has been fixed.

- I do like being able to see the rankings next to the teams during the match. It'll be more meaningful late Friday/Saturday morning when trying to make the top 8 will heat up the competition.

Side note: 624 and 33 are the top bots so far from what I've seen in my opinion. 33's ability to pretty much shoot from wherever, whenever and 624's accurate shooting are putting them above the rest of the competition at there respective events.

Wetzel 28-02-2014 15:29

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Losing your ball out of bounds during a cycle is killer.

mwmac 28-02-2014 15:30

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Surprised to see some alliances leaving a human player area empty near the truss...long delay while field personnel walk errant ball to nearest human player..

PVCpirate 28-02-2014 15:34

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I've been watching Alamo and Palmetto for about a half hour. Fouls notwithstanding, here's my observations:
  • Alliances that have trouble scoring Auton balls are in trouble
  • Teams with a quick line-up and shot are doing the best, anyone who can't shoot in about 5 seconds gets attacked by defenders
  • Not a ton of teamwork yet, alliances that get assists and truss shots consistently are winning easily
  • I've seen a few exciting matches, notably a buzzer-beater shot in the high goal for the win at Palmetto (update, 1772, 3824 and 346 just scored 290 at Palmetto[!] High score so far from what I can see.)
  • Truss shot to the human player is proving effective early
  • Many teams can't hold on to the ball, they are not doing well

I really can't wait for elims tomorrow, I think some of the kinks will be ironed out by then and we'll be treated to some really fun matches.

abeD 28-02-2014 15:34

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
A match at palmetto they just scored 290. Several cycles with catches. 1772 was catching and scoring and another team I forget the number was getting the inbound and throwing over the truss.

PVCpirate 28-02-2014 15:37

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by abeD (Post 1351046)
A match at palmetto they just scored 290. Several cycles with catches. 1772 was catching and scoring and another team I forget the number was getting the inbound and throwing over the truss.

that was 3824 inbounding and trussing.

joelg236 28-02-2014 15:37

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by abeD (Post 1351046)
A match at palmetto they just scored 290. Several cycles with catches. 1772 was catching and scoring and another team I forget the number was getting the inbound and throwing over the truss.

I just missed this match. Will there be VODs?

Ginger Power 28-02-2014 15:40

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joelg236 (Post 1351048)
I just missed this match. Will there be VODs?

I missed it as well by about 10 seconds!!! Can anybody who watched it go into detail about how they put up 290!!

wireties 28-02-2014 15:41

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Watching Alamo action....

- G40 is a killer
- shooting on the move is money
- all balls in auto must be made
- holding onto the ball while being hit is important
- gotta finish assisted cycles, high goal or not
- lots of teams not familiar with the rules
- smooth inbound is a key to quick cycle

PVCpirate 28-02-2014 15:43

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
There's a goalie bot at Alamo 4219 that's causing some trouble, they're at least getting in the shooters' heads, and making it tough to rebound the ball after a miss.

Alex Cormier 28-02-2014 15:45

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
The same as each year, train your HP's. They are a very valuable asset on the field.

PVCpirate 28-02-2014 15:46

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginger Power (Post 1351050)
I missed it as well by about 10 seconds!!! Can anybody who watched it go into detail about how they put up 290!!

After auton, 3824 would inbound, turn, and fire the ball over the truss, and 1772 was waiting on the other side to get the ball and score in the high goal. They probably went through at least 6 cycles of this, and I think they had 2 CATCHES in the process. Very light defense on them. Their third robot was either defending or disabled, not sure which.

Chris Hibner 28-02-2014 15:46

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Score keeping has been problematic. Our last match we scored 105, but got credit for 66 (I don't know how with no 1 pt goals). We had 35 in auto and got credit for 15 and lost 20 assist points. I hope the final standings are separated by a larger margin than that.

Ginger Power 28-02-2014 15:58

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1351054)
After auton, 3824 would inbound, turn, and fire the ball over the truss, and 1772 was waiting on the other side to get the ball and score in the high goal. They probably went through at least 6 cycles of this, and I think they had 2 CATCHES in the process. Very light defense on them. Their third robot was either defending or disabled, not sure which.

Thanks!

Jack_O 28-02-2014 16:03

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
We're there any foul points in match with 290?

Ether 28-02-2014 16:08

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1351054)
After auton, 3824 would inbound, turn, and fire the ball over the truss, and 1772 was waiting on the other side to get the ball and score in the high goal...

Third bot 346



Caleb Sykes 28-02-2014 16:08

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I just watcheed a match from Palmetto (Q51?) in which neither red nor blue scored their missed auto balls. One of the blue robots was spending lots of time trying to score those balls over the truss.

Ether 28-02-2014 16:09

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_O (Post 1351060)
We're there any foul points in match with 290?

Code:

Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:31:50 +0000        SCMB        Q        45        46        290        4516        4243        1648        3824        346        1772        0        50        25        50        21        190


Lil' Lavery 28-02-2014 16:11

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Just watched the last few matches at Alamo. Refs missed assists in each of the past two, on pretty cut and dry plays. Each match had a three assist cycle counted for two.

amro 28-02-2014 16:11

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Like most people said, G40 violations are really big, but over time that will decrease when human players get more practice. IT seems like the other big thing is missing high goal points in auto and in teleop. The best thing this year may be just quick cycles and if a shot is missed, dump it in the one point goal immediately. The biggest killer is the ball being uncontrolled by a robot on the field

Madison 28-02-2014 16:14

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1351066)
Just watched the last few matches at Alamo. Refs missed assists in each of the past two, on pretty cut and dry plays. Each match had a three assist cycle counted for two.

FIRST is consistently unable to create game rules that refs can enforce appropriately and is consistently unable to create a process and system that allows teams to remain connected to the field and operational for an entire match, so of course they'd design a game that relies heavily on each of those things.

SkittlesCharge 28-02-2014 16:22

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
After watching Central Illinois on and off for a few hours, here is what I've seen:

Unscored autonomous balls really hurt alliances, as their opponents immediately rush in to play defense, causing the alliance to waste lots of time trying to score the balls.
Many robots are not sturdy enough, making them lose the ball and/or pieces of their bot whenever they get hit.
Truss shots are a very popular method of scoring but catching is rare. I've seen truss shots on the majority of cycles but only a few catches in all the time I've been watching.
Two robots playing defense can often shut down even the best of offensive robots.
Matches are frequently decided by technical fouls, with the most common being G12 and G40.
Matches seem to either be a huge victory for one alliance or very close until the end.

nuggetsyl 28-02-2014 16:35

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1351066)
Just watched the last few matches at Alamo. Refs missed assists in each of the past two, on pretty cut and dry plays. Each match had a three assist cycle counted for two.

I have seen several matches like this. But what driving me bonkers is the pure persistence of teams wanting to shoot.

Navid Shafa 28-02-2014 16:41

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1351066)
Just watched the last few matches at Alamo. Refs missed assists in each of the past two, on pretty cut and dry plays. Each match had a three assist cycle counted for two.

Similar happenings at PNW Auburn Mountainview.

I've seen teams wait 20+ seconds for a refresh on a cycle, not to mention the refs take forever to notice calling a dead ball.

Cycles HAVE to get started quicker. It is unacceptable for teams to be waiting 20-30 seconds for a new ball...

bduddy 28-02-2014 16:44

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1351066)
Just watched the last few matches at Alamo. Refs missed assists in each of the past two, on pretty cut and dry plays. Each match had a three assist cycle counted for two.

Didn't ref and scorekeeper used to be separate positions? I don't know if FIRST has been lacking for volunteers or what, but if there was ever a game where they really needed to be separate...

...as a ref this year, I am not looking forward to trying to operate the scoring screen while watching for fouls...

Ginger Power 28-02-2014 16:44

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
One of the volunteers that I saw, while watching Central Illinois, received a ball that was ejected from the field. The volunteer had no idea what to do with the ball and held onto it for a good 15-20 seconds. It didn't cost the alliance the match because two of the robots broke down but it easily could have changed the game.

bduddy 28-02-2014 16:50

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
A huge theme this year is going to be: Be realistic about the capabilities of your bot. So far, I've seen almost every team over-estimate their ability to:

-Pick up the ball
-Throw the ball over the truss
-Shoot into the high goal
-Catch the ball
-All of the above!

...and it really hurts your alliance when you do that. Teams that lack the theoretical maximum of the very 'top' robots, but that are realistic about what they can do, will do very well - including in eliminations.

Caleb Sykes 28-02-2014 16:55

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1351088)
A huge theme this year is going to be: Be realistic about the capabilities of your bot. So far, I've seen almost every team over-estimate their ability to:

-Pick up the ball
-Throw the ball over the truss
-Shoot into the high goal
-Catch the ball
-All of the above!

and.. score in autonomous? That's the biggest one for me.

bduddy 28-02-2014 16:59

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inkling16 (Post 1351089)
and.. score in autonomous? That's the biggest one for me.

Oops, forgot about that one... probably the biggest killer of all, especially when combined with the rest...

=Martin=Taylor= 28-02-2014 17:10

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Watched some Alamo matches...

...man this game is slow...

Sometime 148 just spins in place for entertainment while they wait for a ball to get passed to them. When was the last game powerhouse teams did things like that?

Maybe things will speed up in the following weeks, but this passing on the ground for assists is pretty dull. Hopefully when more teams start catching things will move faster

Not really analysis, just the opinion of a spectator.

JohnSchneider 28-02-2014 17:12

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor= (Post 1351096)
Watched some Alamo matches...

...man this game is slow...

Sometime 148 just spins in place for entertainment while they wait for a ball to get passed to them. When was the last game powerhouse teams did things like that?

Maybe things will speed up in the following weeks, but this passing on the ground for assists is pretty dull. Hopefully when more teams start catching things will move faster

Not really analysis, just the opinion of a spectator.

In an elimination match or at champs you'd probably be playing defense. Alamo's lower half cant even posses the ball...there's nothing to defend. Better offenses will bring better defenses out.

Rypsnort 28-02-2014 17:22

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
some matches look like a little kids soccer game.(bunch of bots in a group getting in each other's way)

Rypsnort 28-02-2014 17:24

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
should get better as teams get practice.

BBray_T1296 28-02-2014 17:35

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
A huge one for me:

Know when to give up!


Trying to get a truss shot 3 times in a row without success is wasting time

Trying to get a high goal 3 times in a row is wasting time

If you fail once (and have to chase the ball back down), just forget it

Jay O'Donnell 28-02-2014 17:37

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
At Nashua there were multiple instances of the ball going through the goal, hitting the back bar, and bouncing back onto the field. I can't see why FIRST couldn't cover that back bar setup with a piece of flat cardboard to make it bounce in a direction where the shot counts.

magnets 28-02-2014 18:16

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 1351069)
FIRST is consistently unable to create game rules that refs can enforce appropriately and is consistently unable to create a process and system that allows teams to remain connected to the field and operational for an entire match, so of course they'd design a game that relies heavily on each of those things.

It's understandably tough to get all the assists exactly as they happen, especially with good teams playing. What's frustrating is there seems to be no way for a referee to update a score after it happened (or they just don't care). Alamo's announcer called out multiple mistakes and once warned a team to wait a second for the ref to add an assist, but no correction was ever made.

Watching 118's shots bounce out of the poorly designed goal and watching 148 spin in circles because their drivers were bored was real disappointing.

Knowing the rules is really great, especially for the referees, who failed to disable a robot without bumpers.

On a more positive note, the new score display is kind of better. It's no longer 4:3, it's higher resolution, and it's got more info.
One comment- the rank numbers and green assist circles aren't obvious to understand. Also, the matches seem to be roughly 2 sec longer that they're supposed to be.

Daniel_LaFleur 28-02-2014 18:17

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell (Post 1351110)
At Nashua there were multiple instances of the ball going through the goal, hitting the back bar, and bouncing back onto the field. I can't see why FIRST couldn't cover that back bar setup with a piece of flat cardboard to make it bounce in a direction where the shot counts.

Seems to me that this is this years 'gotcha'.

Every year there seems to be a part of the field that doesn't play nice ... seems the high goal is this years part.


Week 2 teams, take note ;)

Michael Hill 28-02-2014 18:23

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
It seems like gameplay here at Central illinois has been much more violent than in years past. Teams realized when they don't have the ball, you double team on defense until you're open. I hope everyone built a physically strong robot.

Steven Smith 28-02-2014 18:24

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I think there is a misconception among the "kit bot built to defend" populace that defense equals shot blocking (interfering with the ball trajectory).

Many of these robots would have been better suited to avoid building a 60" tall wall that makes their robot top heavy (and the drivers move it around gingerly), but to instead build a basic kitbot with well mounted battery/electronics/etc, a few pounds of ballast, and just get in the way or hit teams as they try to shoot.

I haven't seen many (any?) "swats" of balls. The most effective defense has been pushing a robot as it attempts to shoot and altering the shot trajectory, or knocking it loose.

Any team can do this effectively IMO.

Nebster 28-02-2014 18:47

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
After just finishing watching the 118 vs 148 match, it's very disappointing that the human player can not get a ball until after the ref's light up the post, which takes 10-15 seconds. As soon as a cycle is finished, the alliance should be able to get another cycle started right away.

Also, G40 seems to be the main decider of most of these matches...

magnets 28-02-2014 18:50

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
OK, I'm confused. What just happened in the alamo regional?

118 sat there for about 10 seconds before the light on the pedestal lit up, and because of that, they couldn't get another shot in before the match ended. Why didn't the pedestal light up? No balls were on the field.

This is looking bad. Bad calls everywhere.

magnets 28-02-2014 18:53

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Another question, what was the field fault (alamo)? I'm watching an ad now.

JohnSchneider 28-02-2014 19:00

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magnets (Post 1351129)
Another question, what was the field fault (alamo)? I'm watching an ad now.

refs declared 2 balls dead and then started another cycle

MrBasse 28-02-2014 19:00

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I think too much has been put on the refs this year. I saw several matches where low goal scorers had arms inside the low goal directly in front of a ref. not just in, but like 12-15 inches in and no call. Several long delays on lighting the pedestal after a score, lots of high goal bounce outs, and numerous pickups the in no way were 20" or less outside the frame. I also notice a few games that had scores climbing and climbing when multiple autonomous balls were still on the field. Lots of scoring trouble on top of all that. Several matches where no low goals were scored, but scores were odd numbers.

Overall, I think this game could be great with practice. But, we all might have to wait a few weeks to be truly amazed by it. It will take a lot for teams, refs, and volunteers to get the hang of this one. Even more for everyone to all manage it at the same time.

Thad House 28-02-2014 19:00

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I'm see alot of week 1 similarities between this year and 2010. Both were penalties are too large and ruining the game. For the past few years, it was fairly easy to make up a foul. a tech foul was hard, but still very doable. This year, unless you are an AMAZING alliance, making up a foul is difficult, and a tech is almost impossible. I wouldn't be surprised to see an update next tues with some major changes to the ways fouls work, because right now, it seems broken.

Also similar, is making up a deficit is very difficult, and i have seen very very few close matches so far, which is fairly different from what we have seen the past few years. Since most of the 2010 students have graduated, most students dont remember how bad that really was, and I see alot of similarities right now. I hope they can get fixed.

Something I would like to see, is that if fouls worked like they used to, and took away from your alliance, how many matches would be 0-0. Also, maybe grab that information from the last 2 years, and check those percentages as well. I think those would be interesting to see.

Ian Curtis 28-02-2014 19:08

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBasse (Post 1351131)
I think too much has been put on the refs this year. I saw several matches where low goal scorers had arms inside the low goal directly in front of a ref. not just in, but like 12-15 inches in and no call.

Isn't this legal? You are just not allowed to break the plane of your opponent's goal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by G26-1
ROBOTS may not break the planes of the openings of the opponent’s LOW GOALS.

Violation: FOUL. If extended, strategic, or repeated, TECHNICAL FOUL.


bduddy 28-02-2014 19:08

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBasse (Post 1351131)
I think too much has been put on the refs this year. I saw several matches where low goal scorers had arms inside the low goal directly in front of a ref. not just in, but like 12-15 inches in and no call. Several long delays on lighting the pedestal after a score, lots of high goal bounce outs, and numerous pickups the in no way were 20" or less outside the frame. I also notice a few games that had scores climbing and climbing when multiple autonomous balls were still on the field. Lots of scoring trouble on top of all that. Several matches where no low goals were scored, but scores were odd numbers.

Overall, I think this game could be great with practice. But, we all might have to wait a few weeks to be truly amazed by it. It will take a lot for teams, refs, and volunteers to get the hang of this one. Even more for everyone to all manage it at the same time.

The problem, in my opinion, is that refs are required to both watch a quadrant of the field that may include several robots and operate the scoring screen. If I recall correctly there used to be separate scorekeepers, and it's still listed as a volunteer position in VIMS; I know there isn't an endless supply of volunteers, but if there was ever a game that needed scorekeepers...

MrBasse 28-02-2014 19:15

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1351137)
Isn't this legal? You are just not allowed to break the plane of your opponent's goal?

You are right, I wrote too fast for my brain to keep up. But I did notice it happening with defensive bots (that may have sustained a little damage) when trying to pick up a ball by the opponents low goal as well. Not very often, but at least three or four times in all of the matches I saw today.

Laaba 80 28-02-2014 19:45

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1351066)
Just watched the last few matches at Alamo. Refs missed assists in each of the past two, on pretty cut and dry plays. Each match had a three assist cycle counted for two.

Something I've noticed is many teams inbound the ball to robot A, A passes to B, then B does a truss pass, but B never completely crossed into the white zone before passing so no assist is scored. The team took 20 points off the board for no reason.

Not trying to tell you what you saw, but I thought the same thing for a while until I noticed this. I've actually been pretty ok with the assist scoring so far, the slow cycle restarts are a different story though

JesseK 28-02-2014 20:20

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I haven't been able to watch a single match due to my day job. But after reading this entire thread, it really seems like typical Week 1 jitters.

Except for that anti-scoring device behind the goal. That really should be fixed. We spend thousands of dollars per year as an organization on FIRST's partners and I'm sure one of them can sponsor a fix.

PVCpirate 28-02-2014 20:27

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1351158)
I haven't been able to watch a single match due to my day job. But after reading this entire thread, it really seems like typical Week 1 jitters.

Except for that anti-scoring device behind the goal. That really should be fixed. We spend thousands of dollars per year as an organization on FIRST's partners and I'm sure one of them can sponsor a fix.

If you want to see some matches, Auburn-Mountainview in Washington is still running http://www.ustream.tv/channel/firstwa-blue.

JesseK 28-02-2014 20:28

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1351160)
If you want to see some matches, Auburn-Mountainview in Washington is still running http://www.ustream.tv/channel/firstwa-blue.

Sweet, thanks!

ehochstein 28-02-2014 20:33

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1351138)
The problem, in my opinion, is that refs are required to both watch a quadrant of the field that may include several robots and operate the scoring screen. If I recall correctly there used to be separate scorekeepers, and it's still listed as a volunteer position in VIMS; I know there isn't an endless supply of volunteers, but if there was ever a game that needed scorekeepers...

There are still scorekeepers this year. I am just unsure whether your definition of scorekeeper is the same as what it is actually defined as.

bduddy 28-02-2014 20:36

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiifi (Post 1351164)
There are still scorekeepers this year. I am just unsure whether your definition of scorekeeper is the same as what it is actually defined as.

I was referring to volunteers that specifically operated the scoring screens. I thought those used to exist, although it's possible I'm wrong.

Thad House 28-02-2014 20:37

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
At auburn, I just saw a robot toss the ball to go over the truss. It arc'd, hit the ground, bounced and then went over the truss. It was in the correct direction, but the Head ref still said it didnt count. What rule would cause this, because that doesnt make sense.

Jared Russell 28-02-2014 20:38

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sst.thad (Post 1351166)
At auburn, I just saw a robot toss the ball to go over the truss. It arc'd, hit the ground, bounced and then went over the truss. It was in the correct direction, but the Head ref still said it didnt count. What rule would cause this, because that doesnt make sense.

I saw that too, and it was one of many incorrect rulings I've seen today.

eddie12390 28-02-2014 20:38

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I don't want to call out a specific team, but there are instances such as match 34 at the Auburn Mountainview District Event where a robot blantantly stuck it's arm ~15 inches into the low goal multiple times. It doesn't seem like certain penalties are even being watched for due to the complexity of keeping track of things like assists while watching for other penalties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sst.thad (Post 1351166)
At auburn, I just saw a robot toss the ball to go over the truss. It arc'd, hit the ground, bounced and then went over the truss. It was in the correct direction, but the Head ref still said it didnt count. What rule would cause this, because that doesnt make sense.

I was wondering about that also, is there anything that specifies that a team must throw the ball to score it? What if a team were to decide that they wanted to bounce a ball into the high goal?

JesseK 28-02-2014 20:41

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
That TRUSS really depended on the interpretation of what "caused" the ball to go over the truss. Seems like the ref used a pretty chicken-and-egg interpretation to me.

Quote:

A BALL is considered SCORED over the TRUSS if a ROBOT causes a BALL to pass though...

Thad House 28-02-2014 20:42

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1351168)
I saw that too, and it was one of many incorrect rulings I've seen today.

Yeah I've seen alot of bad rulings today, and it worries me. There is just so much to watch for this year...

Caleb Sykes 28-02-2014 20:43

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie12390 (Post 1351169)
I don't want to call out a specific team, but there are instances such as match 34 at the Auburn Mountainview District Event where a robot blantantly stuck it's arm ~15 inches into the low goal multiple times. It doesn't seem like certain penalties are even being watched for due to the complexity of keeping track of things like assists while watching for other penalties.

Which low goal did they stick their arm into? Their own low goal, or the opponent's?

LDiDomenico 28-02-2014 20:43

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
After watching the Alamo Regional and Auburn Mountainview District competitions I noticed a few things.

1. Field reset is so much faster than last year.
2. Sometimes assists aren't being called.
3. A lot of matches are being determined by fouls.
4. Too many teams don't know what to do on the field.

orangemoore 28-02-2014 20:47

Re: Week 1 Analysis
 
I have really noticed that the assists they are scoring are really obvious. Some are not being called at all. I think that this may improve with time through the season but for the teams that are competing now it may be making it a lot harder.


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