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Week 1 Analysis
This thread is to discuss things you have noticed about the game/gameplay from watching the web-streams and/or being at the event in person, specifically related to in match observations.
For me: -Defense is very important. Even the best alliances have to chase the ball around the field due to a well timed defensive attack -When the red ball and blue ball are unpossessed and right next to each other, there is total chaos -Teams that spend 5 seconds gathering a ball really slow down cycle times (because defense strikes at the worst times) -Human players carelessly (or not very carefully) depositing balls onto robots greatly hinder cycle efficiency. -Alliances with human players inbounding a ball onto the field (not onto a robot) tend to take longer to cycle |
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G40. G40 everywhere.
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G40 is so heavily scrutinized and weighted way too heavily. Matches are currently being decided at it.
Also, teams currently are having difficulty simply passing the ball between robots to each other. It's pretty frustrating when a team's only way to remove the ball from their robot is by shooting it. Teams are also having difficulty with shooter accuracy. It's also incredibly frustrating when a team has 3 assists on the board at the end of the match, after trying to shoot into the 10pt goal 4 times rather than just finishing the cycle by dumping it into the 1pt goal. -Nick |
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I would pay attention to cycles and how many assists should really be awarded. It's tough to tell but it doesn't always seem that the proper assist points are being awarded However watching the webcasts is difficult so it is just something to pay attention to.
Also please make sure your human players don't mess up G40 like it has been previously stated. Stay in that box. And don't reach your hands out too far. It will kill a match for you. -Nick |
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The field is very crowded and the self catch over the truss is going to be very difficult.
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I am seeing lots of broken parts. Robust construction will help.
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Tons of balls being missed in auto and slowing down the entire cycling phase.
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missing auton can lose a match.
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There's just a ton of poor strategy showing so far; I'm guessing people will soon figure out things like G40, but it also looks like teams are trying to take shots they didn't practice, and thus losing LOTS of time, and forgetting basic stuff like you can't get a truss score with a ball left over from auto.
-High goal shots that are off target are horrible time-wasters -kiss passes are where it's at -don't take an auto ball unless you are able to score it -the field is crowded; pushing power is looking better than evasion |
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It seems like foul points are the deciding factor of nearly every single match I'm watching. Perhaps add another space between the safety zone and the human player area so fouls occur less?
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Considering the amount of time many alliances are taking to line up, shoot, then chase the ball, I'm not sure Truss points are worth it unless you have a reliable catcher.
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I'm seeing the penalties and missed auton balls are the killer this year. And having a good intake and driver practice is very important.
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I find it funny that the present "safety zone" rules were put in place to help limit the penalties. It seems to me that its effect has only (so far) been to increase the number of penalties. I really hope that this will change as the HPs become more aware of their bodies, and aware of how badly they are hurting their alliance.
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It was added to reduce robot penalties. Human players are a whole other story, and any time we have human players introducing game objects right up to the field we have penalties for it. It hasn't been much in the past few years due to the restriction on entry - discs had slots, and if the cover was on the ray leading to the slot it was practically impossible to get a penalty; basketballs had the long slot, and teams most often were throwing the ball hard through it, which meant their hands didn't come that close to the opening; Tubes were mostly thrown over the top, and not passed through the slot. This year is vastly different, as there's only the low railing separating the human players from the robots.
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On the scoreboard, there is a number adjacent to the team number. What does it represent? Seems too high to be total assists.
Edit: It appears to be the current ranking. |
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- The number of G40 penalties is insane. They should either relax that rule, or make a better barrier so it's clear where the human players can't reach. Just some simple tensabarriers would help.
- This year's high vs low goal scoring at the end of the game is like 2012s 1vs2vs3 robot bridge balance. Coaches MUST pay attention to the score at the end of the match to make better decisions about whether a guaranteed low goal or an iffy high goal is necessary to win the match. Bad coaching is costing teams matches. - There is some great defense being played, and it's making the difference. There is also some poor defense being played. It's not illegal to hit a robot that's taking a shot. If someone is lining up to shoot, don't just sit there in front of them, push them around! Spin them so they are pointing away from the goal! Or, if they are trying to pick up a ball, get in their way. - Counter defense also works. I've been impressed by the alliances which use the "middle zone" robot to keep defenders off of the goal scoring robot. - 3 assist cycles rule. When it happens, it runs up the score very quickly. Three assisters, who work together to score 1 point goals quickly, crush the powerhouse truss shooting-high goal scoring bot acting alone. The GDC succeeded with their goal. If you put three of those powerhouse robots together, I expect to see match scores in the mid to high 300's. - Last second truss launches win matches. - The design of the high goals needs fixed. Scored balls are bouncing back out of the goals onto the field, with no points awarded. That's just not right. - Web streaming technology sucks. - An awesome unveiling video is not necessarily an indicator of onfield performance. |
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This year, the human player is very similar to 2010. Small mistakes from an HP yield big swings in the score.
The safety zone was created to reduce G21 penalties from poorly designed and/or controlled robots. Instead we now have the G40 which is an automatic technical. G21 and G40 were created to keep HPs safe and lawyers happy, but it has the potential to ruin this game. G40 should be changed so that it is only called if a robot has an apendage sticking out of the field barrier in the area of the HP. |
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We learned today people don't read the rules and have no clue how to score.
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Plywood? Corrugated plastic? Anything smooth :p
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I'm seeing lots of "side-coaching" by Human Players with hands pointing and reaching which may be causing some of the G40....Hands in pockets will be implemented in our matches if you're human player. May make more sense to roll ball into our roller system than reaching and dropping ball into the robot.
Definitely agree that Auto is a killer this year if you miss shots. Seems like it's better to leave balls off the field if you can't reliably put the ball in the goal during Auton. |
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G40. Way too many matches are decided by penalties and with the average match score double that of a technical foul something needs to be done. G40 needs to be changed to a foul. If contact is made to a robot or ball touching a robot technical foul.
Just my $.02 |
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Teams either have no driver practice, don't read the rules, or have very inconsistent shooters.
I haven't seen a fluid match yet. |
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Learning also teams feel the need to pick balls up when pushing would work better in most cases.
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The fact that teams can't hold on to the ball. I was seeing this during reveal videos and even practice matches yesterday. Defense is going to be huge this year and you really have to make sure you hold on to the ball well. If not, it will launched out of your robot with one big hit.
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I've been watching the palmetto stream and i have seen a bunch of goals bounce out, teams score their balls into opponents low goals, and teams repeatedly miss high goal shots for the entire match. Seems like a very frustrating game so far but I haven't been able to watch dedicatedly |
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Overall, a very poor performance in week one.
-Lack of decent prep for the majority of teams is costing ALL teams to do poorly Most drivers don't really know what to do, ever. -G40 seems to be a real tough rule. While I definitely understand the reasoning behind the rule, I don't think that teams -Blue alliance gameday is awesome for viewing streams, but few streams are decent. They are of low quality, and often show useless stuff (stop filming the robot signal lights!!!) -Scores are all over the place. -Your alliance partners and opponents decide if you're going to win the match, not the quality/skill of your team. -The high goal sucks. I've watched a team throw a ball, have it bounce out, pick it up, shoot, have it bounce out again, then run out of time. Unless this was an intentional challenge (which isn't at all shown in the team model of the field), FIRST needs to fix this. It shouldn't be too hard, it's just a hole in a wall. It doesn't get too much simpler than that. |
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Wayne,
I'm pretty sure that is their current Rank for the event. -Clinton- |
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Lots of teams designed their mechanisms to fit underinflated balls. I'm seeing lots of balls getting stuck in robots. (Or maybe it's the same robot multiple times.)
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How often have teams caught truss shots? Catching seems even less common than 30-point climbs at this point...
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Watching Alamo, teams are getting better as the day goes but G40 is killing teams. It has decided the outcome of a lot of matches. - I've notice a few teams trussing the autonomous balls that were missed. It was earlier in the day so it looks like it has been fixed. - I do like being able to see the rankings next to the teams during the match. It'll be more meaningful late Friday/Saturday morning when trying to make the top 8 will heat up the competition. Side note: 624 and 33 are the top bots so far from what I've seen in my opinion. 33's ability to pretty much shoot from wherever, whenever and 624's accurate shooting are putting them above the rest of the competition at there respective events. |
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Losing your ball out of bounds during a cycle is killer.
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Surprised to see some alliances leaving a human player area empty near the truss...long delay while field personnel walk errant ball to nearest human player..
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I've been watching Alamo and Palmetto for about a half hour. Fouls notwithstanding, here's my observations:
I really can't wait for elims tomorrow, I think some of the kinks will be ironed out by then and we'll be treated to some really fun matches. |
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A match at palmetto they just scored 290. Several cycles with catches. 1772 was catching and scoring and another team I forget the number was getting the inbound and throwing over the truss.
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Watching Alamo action....
- G40 is a killer - shooting on the move is money - all balls in auto must be made - holding onto the ball while being hit is important - gotta finish assisted cycles, high goal or not - lots of teams not familiar with the rules - smooth inbound is a key to quick cycle |
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There's a goalie bot at Alamo 4219 that's causing some trouble, they're at least getting in the shooters' heads, and making it tough to rebound the ball after a miss.
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The same as each year, train your HP's. They are a very valuable asset on the field.
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Score keeping has been problematic. Our last match we scored 105, but got credit for 66 (I don't know how with no 1 pt goals). We had 35 in auto and got credit for 15 and lost 20 assist points. I hope the final standings are separated by a larger margin than that.
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We're there any foul points in match with 290?
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I just watcheed a match from Palmetto (Q51?) in which neither red nor blue scored their missed auto balls. One of the blue robots was spending lots of time trying to score those balls over the truss.
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Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:31:50 +0000 SCMB Q 45 46 290 4516 4243 1648 3824 346 1772 0 50 25 50 21 190 |
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Just watched the last few matches at Alamo. Refs missed assists in each of the past two, on pretty cut and dry plays. Each match had a three assist cycle counted for two.
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Like most people said, G40 violations are really big, but over time that will decrease when human players get more practice. IT seems like the other big thing is missing high goal points in auto and in teleop. The best thing this year may be just quick cycles and if a shot is missed, dump it in the one point goal immediately. The biggest killer is the ball being uncontrolled by a robot on the field
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After watching Central Illinois on and off for a few hours, here is what I've seen:
Unscored autonomous balls really hurt alliances, as their opponents immediately rush in to play defense, causing the alliance to waste lots of time trying to score the balls. Many robots are not sturdy enough, making them lose the ball and/or pieces of their bot whenever they get hit. Truss shots are a very popular method of scoring but catching is rare. I've seen truss shots on the majority of cycles but only a few catches in all the time I've been watching. Two robots playing defense can often shut down even the best of offensive robots. Matches are frequently decided by technical fouls, with the most common being G12 and G40. Matches seem to either be a huge victory for one alliance or very close until the end. |
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I've seen teams wait 20+ seconds for a refresh on a cycle, not to mention the refs take forever to notice calling a dead ball. Cycles HAVE to get started quicker. It is unacceptable for teams to be waiting 20-30 seconds for a new ball... |
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...as a ref this year, I am not looking forward to trying to operate the scoring screen while watching for fouls... |
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One of the volunteers that I saw, while watching Central Illinois, received a ball that was ejected from the field. The volunteer had no idea what to do with the ball and held onto it for a good 15-20 seconds. It didn't cost the alliance the match because two of the robots broke down but it easily could have changed the game.
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A huge theme this year is going to be: Be realistic about the capabilities of your bot. So far, I've seen almost every team over-estimate their ability to:
-Pick up the ball -Throw the ball over the truss -Shoot into the high goal -Catch the ball -All of the above! ...and it really hurts your alliance when you do that. Teams that lack the theoretical maximum of the very 'top' robots, but that are realistic about what they can do, will do very well - including in eliminations. |
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Watched some Alamo matches...
...man this game is slow... Sometime 148 just spins in place for entertainment while they wait for a ball to get passed to them. When was the last game powerhouse teams did things like that? Maybe things will speed up in the following weeks, but this passing on the ground for assists is pretty dull. Hopefully when more teams start catching things will move faster Not really analysis, just the opinion of a spectator. |
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some matches look like a little kids soccer game.(bunch of bots in a group getting in each other's way)
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should get better as teams get practice.
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A huge one for me:
Know when to give up! Trying to get a truss shot 3 times in a row without success is wasting time Trying to get a high goal 3 times in a row is wasting time If you fail once (and have to chase the ball back down), just forget it |
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At Nashua there were multiple instances of the ball going through the goal, hitting the back bar, and bouncing back onto the field. I can't see why FIRST couldn't cover that back bar setup with a piece of flat cardboard to make it bounce in a direction where the shot counts.
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Watching 118's shots bounce out of the poorly designed goal and watching 148 spin in circles because their drivers were bored was real disappointing. Knowing the rules is really great, especially for the referees, who failed to disable a robot without bumpers. On a more positive note, the new score display is kind of better. It's no longer 4:3, it's higher resolution, and it's got more info. One comment- the rank numbers and green assist circles aren't obvious to understand. Also, the matches seem to be roughly 2 sec longer that they're supposed to be. |
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Every year there seems to be a part of the field that doesn't play nice ... seems the high goal is this years part. Week 2 teams, take note ;) |
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It seems like gameplay here at Central illinois has been much more violent than in years past. Teams realized when they don't have the ball, you double team on defense until you're open. I hope everyone built a physically strong robot.
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I think there is a misconception among the "kit bot built to defend" populace that defense equals shot blocking (interfering with the ball trajectory).
Many of these robots would have been better suited to avoid building a 60" tall wall that makes their robot top heavy (and the drivers move it around gingerly), but to instead build a basic kitbot with well mounted battery/electronics/etc, a few pounds of ballast, and just get in the way or hit teams as they try to shoot. I haven't seen many (any?) "swats" of balls. The most effective defense has been pushing a robot as it attempts to shoot and altering the shot trajectory, or knocking it loose. Any team can do this effectively IMO. |
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After just finishing watching the 118 vs 148 match, it's very disappointing that the human player can not get a ball until after the ref's light up the post, which takes 10-15 seconds. As soon as a cycle is finished, the alliance should be able to get another cycle started right away.
Also, G40 seems to be the main decider of most of these matches... |
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OK, I'm confused. What just happened in the alamo regional?
118 sat there for about 10 seconds before the light on the pedestal lit up, and because of that, they couldn't get another shot in before the match ended. Why didn't the pedestal light up? No balls were on the field. This is looking bad. Bad calls everywhere. |
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Another question, what was the field fault (alamo)? I'm watching an ad now.
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I think too much has been put on the refs this year. I saw several matches where low goal scorers had arms inside the low goal directly in front of a ref. not just in, but like 12-15 inches in and no call. Several long delays on lighting the pedestal after a score, lots of high goal bounce outs, and numerous pickups the in no way were 20" or less outside the frame. I also notice a few games that had scores climbing and climbing when multiple autonomous balls were still on the field. Lots of scoring trouble on top of all that. Several matches where no low goals were scored, but scores were odd numbers.
Overall, I think this game could be great with practice. But, we all might have to wait a few weeks to be truly amazed by it. It will take a lot for teams, refs, and volunteers to get the hang of this one. Even more for everyone to all manage it at the same time. |
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I'm see alot of week 1 similarities between this year and 2010. Both were penalties are too large and ruining the game. For the past few years, it was fairly easy to make up a foul. a tech foul was hard, but still very doable. This year, unless you are an AMAZING alliance, making up a foul is difficult, and a tech is almost impossible. I wouldn't be surprised to see an update next tues with some major changes to the ways fouls work, because right now, it seems broken.
Also similar, is making up a deficit is very difficult, and i have seen very very few close matches so far, which is fairly different from what we have seen the past few years. Since most of the 2010 students have graduated, most students dont remember how bad that really was, and I see alot of similarities right now. I hope they can get fixed. Something I would like to see, is that if fouls worked like they used to, and took away from your alliance, how many matches would be 0-0. Also, maybe grab that information from the last 2 years, and check those percentages as well. I think those would be interesting to see. |
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Not trying to tell you what you saw, but I thought the same thing for a while until I noticed this. I've actually been pretty ok with the assist scoring so far, the slow cycle restarts are a different story though |
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I haven't been able to watch a single match due to my day job. But after reading this entire thread, it really seems like typical Week 1 jitters.
Except for that anti-scoring device behind the goal. That really should be fixed. We spend thousands of dollars per year as an organization on FIRST's partners and I'm sure one of them can sponsor a fix. |
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At auburn, I just saw a robot toss the ball to go over the truss. It arc'd, hit the ground, bounced and then went over the truss. It was in the correct direction, but the Head ref still said it didnt count. What rule would cause this, because that doesnt make sense.
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I don't want to call out a specific team, but there are instances such as match 34 at the Auburn Mountainview District Event where a robot blantantly stuck it's arm ~15 inches into the low goal multiple times. It doesn't seem like certain penalties are even being watched for due to the complexity of keeping track of things like assists while watching for other penalties.
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That TRUSS really depended on the interpretation of what "caused" the ball to go over the truss. Seems like the ref used a pretty chicken-and-egg interpretation to me.
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After watching the Alamo Regional and Auburn Mountainview District competitions I noticed a few things.
1. Field reset is so much faster than last year. 2. Sometimes assists aren't being called. 3. A lot of matches are being determined by fouls. 4. Too many teams don't know what to do on the field. |
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I have really noticed that the assists they are scoring are really obvious. Some are not being called at all. I think that this may improve with time through the season but for the teams that are competing now it may be making it a lot harder.
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