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PNW District Ranking System Website
I'm excited to direct you to the new Live PNW District Leaderboard Website:
http://district.firstwa.org/ The FRC Leaderboard was created for the 2014 FIRST Robotics Competition by Paul Malmsten and Alex Herreid. I'd like to start by giving them a huge thank you! The site looks beautiful and already has point rankings up including Auburn Mountainview! They've been working very hard on this the last few months and it's going to be a huge benefit to the community. Please check out the site and remember to send any corrections or feedback to: scorekeepers[a t]firstwa[d o t] org |
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That looks awesome!
I do have a couple of questions, will it be "real time"? As in updated similar to FRC Spyder? After each match or just weekly? What happened to teams #33 to XXX? The list stops at 32, are you going to add the rest of the list? I passed it on to the Ops Comm at NEF. Who do they contact for including NEF teams? |
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The teams on the list right now are the ones currently competing at the Auburn Mountainview District. As more teams play, more will be added. NEF is familiar with it, chances are this could be applicable to other districts too! |
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Hey Dana,
As written below, our version of "real time" is not quite like "Spyder" because we can't use Twitter results, those aren't official. It is "real time" in the sense that for most users, it will be up to date "all the time", but it's more like every 10 minutes or so. Because the system is largely automated, it doesn't know what district a team belongs in until they have an associated "win loss tie" record. As such, the only teams in PNW that have that are ones that play this week. Each week, when schedules are generated, any teams that are new that week will show up in the rankings. As for other districts, our email address is scorekeepers[a t]firstwa[d o t] org. We are happy to answer any other questions on there as well. |
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After seeing some brutal play this week, I was curious to see how many PNW teams are doing 3 districts. Turns out there are 18 teams currently registered for 3 districts :eek:
Spoiler for List of teams:
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I think the teams doing 3 districts will have a upper hand but the chance for a huge knock out blow at the same time. The wear on the robots (especially those with spring driven shooters will be exstream) and damage could be a problem. But driver practis could be a worth while things and a chance to master strategy.
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I was actually more surprised by how many spots weren't filled by teams in a 3rd play, 18 out of 153 teams is just under 12%, leaving 38 vacant spots across the 10 events. Initially the PNW district events appeared to fill and max out quickly, but when all the dust settled not a single event was completely full.
At $1000 registration, the 3rd play is a bargain compared to the typical costs associated with attending an extra regional - and when you consider that it gains you 50% more on-field driving and game strategy experience before district championships, it should be a real asset to the team, second only to building a practice bot. Even more puzzling for PNW is that there are 2 teams that are STILL only registered for 1 district event - maybe they have special circumstances that make attending a 2nd too difficult, but its a shame to only claim half of what the registration fee paid for. I sure hope its not just a matter of confusion with the new district model. As far as robot robustness, it is definitely a concern with the amount of play a robot sees in a competition season under the district model. Assuming a team attends 2 districts, district champs, and world champs (and makes it to semifinals at each), they will play over 60 competition matches. Regardless of a 3rd play it is vital that robots are built to handle this extra wear, through robust construction, good serviceability, preparedness with spare parts, and preventative maintenance. It can be pretty apparent when working with Michigan teams at championships - they are generally well ahead of the average team for drive and strategy experience, although a few of the robots seem to be past their prime by the time they make it to champs. Overall it shows that the extra play time, and the opportunity for every single team to iterate between events brings the average level of competitiveness way up. I can't wait to see what the first PNW District Championship is like. |
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The two teams that have chosen to only attend a single event made a conscious choice, they were mad aware of the fact that they were entitled to attend two events. I too an excited to see how the first PNW championship plays out. |
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Also our robot saw some major wear and tear before we even hit championships. Seeing how grueling that alone was last year, and with the kind of damage we already witnessed in week 1 this year, most teams won't be prepared for this. On top of this, it starts to get expensive fast. For PNW teams in the I-5 corridor, they could have the luxury of attending 3 districts relatively close to home. Travel costs become practically a non-issue for these teams and lodging costs are irrelevant (These teams can now essentially do 3 for less than the price of 2 last year). For a minority of teams however, attempting to do 3 becomes more expensive. A second or third event, not including District or World Champs require additional travel and lodging expenses. I definitely like the idea of an extra event in theory, but I understand why many teams wouldn't opt to do so. After thinking a while, I see only 3 main motives to register for an additional event: 1) For teams who don't build a practice robot, one of the benefits is additional practice time. 2) An additional 6 hours of unbag time to work on the competition robot. 3) A third event offers an additional opportunity to present Chairman's and in turn to qualify for the District Championship. Although the rationale behind these decisions can be justified, I still see them as somewhat self-indulgent ones at that. Due to the way the District point system works, a team competing again for their third event hurts teams who are attending as one of their two qualifying districts. Points are not attributed to this third team’s record and are essentially removed from the system. i.e. If a team participates in eliminations or wins any awards, they are then taking away the opportunity from other teams to earn points towards the District Championship qualification system. In my opinion, there is a significant difference between going to three regionals and three districts. Going to three regionals with the wild card system, your choices and sacrifices essentially affect only your team. As much as we all love to play robots, not every team has the choice to go to a third event in either setup, should they also be affected by the choices that other teams make? If I were hellbent on attending a third event in the current regional/district structure, I would choose to attend two districts and a regional instead. Just my $0.02 These opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my team and or any of my other affiliations. |
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I am curious to know what percentage of teams from the PNW have never attended a second regional - I hope and suspect that this year will be a real eye opener for them in regards to the opportunity to make continuous improvements between events. A big part of development is reflecting on what worked, what didn't, and how it can be improved - this process starts as early as during prototyping, but it can be difficult to do in a formalized manner early on. Following an event is a great opportunity to reflect on how things turned out, draw inspiration from other teams, and develop a plan for improvements - having a second chance at another event can give a tremendous amount of motivation to the team to improve. From the beginning our team made it a priority to attend 2 regionals - with the idea that we would see twice as many robot designs each year, and we would have the chance to make improvements. Every single year we would experience a dramatic improvement at our second regional, sometimes after significant rebuild and modification on Thursday. The growth of more regionals in the PNW has made it easier to attend two, and there are many teams who are known for consistently doing this, but I suspect there is a huge percentage of teams who have never had the opportunity to go to two events. It is great that districts gives more matches and two chances for one registration fee. It will be interesting to see how teams evolve between events and over the next few years. BTW: I love the district ranking website, as well as the new splash screens at events with upcoming match listings and robot highlights. It is great to see that the PNW is not only adopting the district model, but making improvements to it in our first year. Thanks so much to all those involved in these efforts (building up two competition fields for the district is no easy feat either, excellent work in that regard as well). Looking forward to our first event in Oregon City this weekend. |
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First, don't forget that third plays serve an important role in statistically evening out the playing field across the districts. Ideally, every single spot would have been filled so that all events were the exact same size. Smaller districts make for an unfair advantage for teams attending those events as part of their first two, already it has been shown that teams attending smaller PNW districts (like Mt Vernon or Corvallis) experience an opportunity advantage over the largest events equivalent to nearly 7 points in the district model. To mitigate this disparity, events must be as close to the same size as possible. They can either choose to be extremely strict about what events a team gets to attend (not sure what they would do short of assigning events to teams), which defeats letting teams pick convenient events, or they can let teams optionally enroll in a 3rd play, to help fill-up smaller events*. Although in a way 3rd plays are 'removing' points from the system, in the process they are making the other teams chances at those points more equal to the other larger district events. Without the 3rd plays, there would be an even greater disparity, as the same number of points would have been given out to an even smaller group of teams at the smallest events. (7 of the 29 teams attending Corvallis are 3rd plays). Second, The wild card system, although nice for regionals, was new just last year and is incompatible with the district model. It helps keep repeat regional teams from hogging spots that another team at the regional could have earned. There is a separate problem though that district-based teams competing in regionals outside their district were stealing spots from regional-only teams, with no recourse for the regional team to have a chance at a spot through the district. Since the district slots are based on the district's representation in the overall team total, district teams earning regional bids was unfair. So as of this year, any district team that chooses to attend a regional and wins a slot to championships at the regional not only consumes the regional ticket, but also consumes one of the finite spots slated for the district. ( See Regional Participation, bottom of page 3). It does get to be a lot of events (and a lot of weekends consumed), when you consider the whole gamut from 2-3 districts through championship. The real shame is that at the end of the district championship, any of us who qualify will have to decide with a weeks notice if we can afford to arrange flights (at ~$500 each) and last-minute hotels to attend. We don't have the luxury like Michigan has of hopping on a bus and driving 8 hours to St Louis, a much more affordable travel option. I expect many district slots will trickle down the ranks to get filled by teams willing and able to go (after so many events already, I wouldn't be surprised if some go unclaimed) *Actually, as I think about it they tried to do a little of both. If you followed the registration process closely, you probably noticed that the events were initially capped around 28 teams. Part of this was reserving spots for rookies, but another part was to make sure no event got significantly bigger than what they expected the smallest event to be (after all, they were initially planning the district venues to support up to 40 teams) As we worked through 2nd round pick and into 3rd pick, they slowly freed up more spots, until settling on the 36 team cap. In the end the disparity remained because fewer 3rd plays signed up than anticipated. |
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So it looks like there is a bug in the calculation where its not doing awards correctly. Maybe I'm wrong, but I calculated our points to be 83, and it only shows 73. Maybe its missing awards, because 73 is what comes out before calculating awards.
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Very cool that you can see individual team results, I didn't realize that was a feature until now. Nice graphical interface for viewing results.
It appears that the Oregon City awards did not get uploaded/posted on the FIRST website. They should be viewable here, but instead I am getting a 404 error. Until this is resolved I suspect the leaderboard will not account for the award points from Oregon City. |
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I just put in the results for Oregon awards and they should now be accounted for. There was an issue with the upload at the event, so I had to wait until I received them in an email.
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Thanks for the awesome website skunks. It takes all the work out of the district model. We quickly know right were we all stand, very convenient! :] See you in Portland (I hope).
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Where does the alliance selection order come from?
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I get it from the FTA's at each event. (As you probably know, there is no public posting of rank order by FMS)
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There was some discussion on teams opting out of doing a third district event.
I know that our team considered this before the season and made a conscious decision to try and get students and mentors to events as volunteers (primarily video crew) rather than try and get the whole team to another event. This is the first year of districts and we felt that support of the entire system was more important than getting another "practice" in. A secondary consideration was the possibility of taking away points from other teams that were competing in one of their districts that "counted" for them. I think we need to take a look at that. If our team competed in a third event and we were lucky enough to do well or to win an award, the points we scored that don't count for us are points that a team participating for the 2nd event would not be able to get. Yes it would be a benefit to get another practice in but at the expense of allowing other teams to get points for District qualifications. It think this issue needs to be addressed next year. I, for one, would choose to remove 3rd play teams from the elimination rounds and also not allow them to win awards at their 3rd play. I know this seems radical but I think it is the only fair way for teams to advance to district championships. I am in NO WAY berating teams that have chosen to do a third play this year under the rules we are playing. I am only suggesting that we need to think this through next year. For many teams that do not have a history of success, they will see the stronger teams coming in to play for a third time as taking away their chance to score points. If we are doing it for practice... then just do it for practice... Good luck on the fields!! |
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A partial fix may be to exclude 3rd play teams from winning judged awards, or alternatively finding a way to eliminate the "optional" element by having 3 events per registration and have all the points count.
I make no claims as to how easy logistically or financially the second idea would be. |
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First - 3rd plays are not for the sole benefit of teams that decide to take them at the cost of teams who happen to attend the same event, they exist for two reasons:
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Any district that is smaller gives all teams attending a clear unfair advantage over teams attending larger districts. Already the PNW district has strayed from the intended use by having unequal event sizes (I am not looking to place blame, just stating a fact). I do not envy the job of having to determine where and how many events to host, how many teams to have attend each, and how to make sure all events fill evenly. It is far from an easy task, especially in the first year of implementation. They were planning for growth going into 2014, but instead the team count shrunk (in both states). They adjusted by decreasing district sizes from 40 to 36, but this still didn't end up being sufficient - as 56 spots were left after second district registration. Really, we should have had 9 districts instead of 10, so only 20 3rd play spots would have remained (or 8 districts @ 40 teams each, leaving 14 3rd plays), but who would have forecasted that a year ago when planning started. Then 3rd plays were opened to top off events, but the 18 that went for it fell far short of the 56 required to fill up all the events. Let's take a quick look for a case study: Mt Vernon had 28 teams, that means all but 4 automatically earned some number of alliance selection points (That's 86%, compared to 69% at Oregon City or Auburn, or 60% at a Michigan district), in addition to getting an almost de-facto chance at additional points by playing in finals. On top of that they had a better chance at winning an award since fewer teams were in attendance. This would have been even more severe if 3rd plays weren't allowed, as the disparity between the smallest and largest event would have been even greater. 3rd plays aren't there to steal points, they are there to make sure no team has an unfair advantage at points by attending a smaller event. Also we need to keep the big picture in mind. We are not an island, and long term it is important that things are equal and fair not just within our district but between districts. Inter-District play will become a reality sooner rather than later, that's why they have already standardized the district point structure - we can't just go making our own changes to the system. By the time Inter-district hits, it will be important that our event size is the same as FiM or MAR, so that our district doesn't offer an unfair advantage. |
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I know the chat in this thread changed slightly, but I wanted to point back to the website itself. Tonight we pushed version 1.2 live, and it has some great new features. We invite you to provide you feedback through the email listed on the website, PM here on CD, or just post it in the thread. We are bring new features as quickly as we can, and your feedback goes a long way in prioritizing our work.
In Version 1.1.x we introduced:
In Version 1.2 we are introducing:
We hope you will enjoy these changes for week 4. For those attending competitions, good luck! |
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Any chance we can get the qualification break down posted? A lot of people at the events have been asking the big question: "Who makes it to District Champs and World Champs?" It's very likely that I'm off, but this is my current understanding that I've been sharing: 64 teams would qualify for the PNW District Championship. 10 district Chairman winners, 54 taken from the point system ranking. Points accrued at the District Championship are worth (3x) as much. PNW would then send the following (24) teams to the World Championship: -3 Chairman’s Winners -1 Engineering Inspiration -1 Rookie All Star -19 Teams based off of the District Point Ranking. |
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Thanks Alex, nice work!!
Navid yes you have it correct. Only teams that won Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration, and Rookie All Star at a district event will compete for those awards at DCMP. Teams that won EI or RAS at a district event earn a spot at DCMP to compete for that award but they must qualify on points to bring their robot. If they win EI or RAS at DCMP then the team moves on to CMP with their robot as you noted. |
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It looks like all the teams that competed in Wilsonville and Shorewood this last weekend show 0 Qualification Performance points. This is confusing to me since the official match results are available and the teams' pages show their match wins and losses correctly. Is this calculation not done automatically as data is available?
Also, great job on this tool and site, Paul and Alex! It is awesome :D Thanks! |
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I noticed the same thing. No qualification points given for Wilsonville or Shorewood. Even when you look on the Event page it shows no points for any of the teams for qualifications.
Great job on the site by the way.... it is very clear and you have several formats to look at ...I like being able to look at individual events AND individual teams along with the overall rankings!! GREAT JOB |
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I'm sure that they will get to it. Alex is a college student who does this on his free time that isn't spent volunteering at an event in one capacity or another.
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Here are some estimates of where teams are as far as making it to the district championship.
This is by no means authoritative. In fact, it has some known flaws like assuming that anybody who hasn't played at all yet is not very good. Key: Code:
in=will make itCode:
Best-case points to make it to district cmp: 40 |
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Very cool! Someone brought me the idea of building this sort of site for FiM, but I was (and am still) too backlogged to commit to something like this.
This is the direction FIRST needs to be heading with the district system. It's 2014. We shouldn't be manually updating Excel spreadsheets and uploading them to tell people where they're ranked in their district. Very nice job! |
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I'm glad you enjoy the site! Certainly feel free to have your FiM Leadership folks shoot us an email or PM and we would be happy to add them. The system is built to handle as many districts as we want. We're hoping that once other districts see it in use for a year, we can all get on board and have a unified system.
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Great job Alex!
This is really helpful to the district teams thanks for the update |
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In Version 1.3 (3/28) we are introducing:
We hope you enjoy FRC Leaderboard- and good luck to teams playing in week 5 events. |
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Tonight we have released version 1.4 of the District Leaderboard System. We have had over 100 different revisions since version last week's version 1.3. I thought I would highlight some of the key changes that you can enjoy this week and going forward (in no particular order):
As always, please be sure to shoot us any feedback you have. For those competing at week 6, good luck! And for those that aren't, but are "on the bubble" for qualifying, feel free to check back around 6PM Saturday and the final rankings should be posted. |
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Since the site is currently down:
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The site, obviously, got quite the hit of visitors. It should be back now. Here is the final list in a different format:
Rank Points Team 1 154 4488 - ShockWave 2 138 2522 - Royal Robotics 3 130 4061 - SciBorgs 4 125 1425 - Error Code Xero 5 121 3238 - Cyborg Ferrets 6 121 2046 - Bear Metal 7 119 2557 - SOTAbots 8 117 4911 - CyberKnights 9 115 4915 - Spartronics 10 113 4125 - Confidential 11 112 2471 - Team Mean Machine 12 110 4077 - M*A*S*H 13 109 2907 - Lion Robotics 14 107 1983 - Skunk Works Robotics 15 106 3588 - the Talon 16 105 1318 - Issaquah Robotics Society 17 99 955 - CV Robotics 18 97 997 - Spartan Robotics 19 95 2928 - Viking Robotics 20 95 2521 - SERT 21 95 360 - The Revolution 22 95 3393 - Horns of Havoc 23 94 2550 - Skynet 24 91 3070 - Team Pronto 25 91 4918 - The Roboctopi 26 89 1595 - Dragons 27 88 4450 - Olympia Robotics Federation 28 87 488 - Team XBot 29 87 948 - NRG (Newport Robotics Group) 30 82 3663 - CPR - Cedar Park Robotics 31 80 4559 - FIRST DRaFT 32 80 492 - Titan Robotics Club 33 79 2412 - Robototes 34 73 4038 - Binary Robotics 35 73 2411 - Rebel @lliance 36 73 5111 - SaxonBots 37 71 2923 - Aggies 38 71 3789 - On Track Academy 39 71 3812 - Bits & Bots 40 70 3674 - 4-H Clover Bots 41 70 1540 - Flaming Chickens 42 70 5085 - LakerBots 43 69 2903 - NeoBots 44 69 2927 - Pi Rho Techs 45 68 2002 - Tualatin Robotics 46 67 4131 - Iron Patriots 47 67 2149 - CV Bearbots 48 66 4542 - Titanium Talons 49 63 1294 - Top Gun 50 63 3574 - HIGH-TEKERZ 51 62 2147 - CHUCK 52 62 956 - Eagle Cybertechnology 53 62 3711 - Iron Mustang 54 62 4980 - Canine Crusaders 55 61 2635 - Lake Monsters 56 60 4513 - Circuit Breakers 57 59 4457 - ACE 58 59 2976 - Spartabots 59 59 4120 - Jagwires 60 59 2811 - StormBots 61 58 3131 - Gladiators 62 58 4127 - LoggerBots 65 56 3219 - TREAD 69 54 4057 - KB Bots |
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Here's a site tour video I made.
I hope that other districts and teams get as excited for it as I was. This has been a great asset for the PNW this season! |
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Tonight we have released version 1.4.6 of the District Leaderboard System. This is the final (real) release of the season. Other tweaks will be made during the off season though, so keep the feedback coming if you have opinions! In no particular order, updated:
Thank you for a great season, and remember, if you want Leaderboard for your district, ask your district administration to send us a message! Good luck teams~ |
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Navid - The ranking website was awesome last year! Are you (or Skunkworks) planning to support it for 2015?
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http://frc-districtrankings.usfirst.org/ Obviously not working right now due to API issues |
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