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-   -   Propose possible fixes for high goals (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127339)

Daniel_LaFleur 02-03-2014 10:32
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam Goli (Post 1351752)
To all people saying teams should deal with it:

This isn't a case of a ball hitting the top and bouncing in the goal opening. This is the ball literally going in through the whole, bouncing on the piece protecting the drive team, and bouncing back out of the hole. I don't see how a team should just design around it, it's a field issue. The backing on the ultimate ascent goals were something to take into account, and it was obvious. The balls bouncing out of these goals is something that wasn't so obvious until week 1 events. It may have happened once or twice in week 0, but there was one match at palmetto where the ball went in and then bounced out 3 times in one match.


I'm inclined to believe just some polycarb that is tilted at a slight angle would fix this issue entirely, and shouldn't be expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstl99 (Post 1351767)
Many times the ball would go through the high goal and settle resting on the bar in the rear until someone took it down. This must have been disruptive for the drivers in that station.

Also the field drawings did not reflect the bar in the back. To me this is a different challenge than what was presented and should be fixed.

I helped set up the field at GSDE and can say that the polycarbonate idea would be very easy to implement.
It was in the original drawing of the field.

All teams have to deal with this issue, so it is fair. I suggest, instead of wasting energy complaining about it, work to figure out a way so that your robot is less affected by it.

Griping about a field element that has been in the drawings since kickoff is wasted energy IM(NS)HO.

MrBasse 02-03-2014 10:59
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam Goli (Post 1351752)
To all people saying teams should deal with it:

This isn't a case of a ball hitting the top and bouncing in the goal opening. This is the ball literally going in through the whole, bouncing on the piece protecting the drive team, and bouncing back out of the hole. I don't see how a team should just design around it, it's a field issue. The backing on the ultimate ascent goals were something to take into account, and it was obvious. The balls bouncing out of these goals is something that wasn't so obvious until week 1 events. It may have happened once or twice in week 0, but there was one match at palmetto where the ball went in and then bounced out 3 times in one match.


I'm inclined to believe just some polycarb that is tilted at a slight angle would fix this issue entirely, and shouldn't be expensive.
It's definitely a field issue, however, it is one that a lot of teams didn't notice until now. It sounds like a lot of teams missed a crucial part of the design process. Who's fault is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kstl99 (Post 1351767)
Snip
Also the field drawings did not reflect the bar in the back. To me this is a different challenge than what was presented and should be fixed.
Snip
Been there since day one on the Official Field Drawings...

This isn't really a big deal. In every sporting event there are challenges. They don't stop a baseball game because it is windy, batters just try to keep the ball low to avoid the wind. Same in football, soccer, or any sport played outside...

Adjust your shot, modify your strategy, play the game you were given.

Jibri Wright 02-03-2014 11:10
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
I think it's totally fair. It's just all part of the design challenge. It probably is hard to change the trajectory of a catapult and do all the math associated with it, but that's one of the reasons why we didn't design a catapult.

S.P.A.M.er 17 02-03-2014 14:13
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
If nothing is going to be changed about the bar, then things need to change about how cycles are ended. Refs should be able to undo cycles since the ball is literally bouncing out of the goal after it appears to be scored. Maybe have another set of lights on the human barrier station so if the cycle is undone, the human players can't inbound until those lights are lit as well. As a ref, I will not want to cause a field fault due to unscoring balls, but I also want to make sure that the next cycle is started as soon as possible. Honestly, this bar seems more unfair to refs, than to the robots.

Jibri Wright 02-03-2014 15:50
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Even if the bar was deemed unfair by the GDC itself, nothing would be done about it, and it's not mainly because of money. The main problem is that in the week one events, the teams who participated had to deal with the bar. Changing that bar is not fair to them. If they had to deal with it, it's more fair that everyone else has to deal with it as well. They had to adjust and so do we, simple as that.

Nirvash 02-03-2014 15:54
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibri Wright (Post 1351969)
Even if the bar was deemed unfair by the GDC itself, nothing would be done about it, and it's not mainly because of money. The main problem is that in the week one events, the teams who participated had to deal with the bar. Changing that bar is not fair to them. If they had to deal with it, it's more fair that everyone else has to deal with it as well. They had to adjust and so do we, simple as that.
I guess FIRST has never changed the field elements throughout the season before. :rolleyes:

Daniel_LaFleur 02-03-2014 15:57
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibri Wright (Post 1351969)
Even if the bar was deemed unfair by the GDC itself, nothing would be done about it, and it's not mainly because of money. The main problem is that in the week one events, the teams who participated had to deal with the bar. Changing that bar is not fair to them. If they had to deal with it, it's more fair that everyone else has to deal with it as well. They had to adjust and so do we, simple as that.
Why would they not change the rules? They've done it before.

Jibri Wright 02-03-2014 16:00
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1351976)
Why would they not change the rules? They've done it before.
It's not a rule, it's a field element.

mott 02-03-2014 16:05
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibri Wright (Post 1351982)
It's not a rule, it's a field element.
FIRST has changed field elements before also... this whole discussion sounds remarkably like the discussion early in 2012 when basketballs wouldn't roll out from under the bridges.

Then, FIRST made a change to the way they attached the polycarb ball ramps to the underside of the bridge assembly (if I remember correctly).

dag0620 02-03-2014 16:05
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Also about the bar...

Even if FIRST wanted to, let's think about the logistical nightmare of getting the materials to fix the fields out to all the events. This weekend alone, there were 11 fields deployed across the U.S. and Canada, and there's certainly more fields then that. Once fields leave HQ, they don't return until the end of the season. So for a fix to happen, the materials would have to be shipped all over the place. While this could be done, I'd be willing to be HQ would try to avoid it as much as possible.

Edit: Not saying it can't be done, or hasn't been done (I do remember 2012), just making sure people are aware of the logistics of making the change happen.

Thad House 02-03-2014 16:06
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
They've changed the field before too. Remember in 2012 they changed the polycarb under the bridges after balls would get stuck under them, so only certain robots could pick them up. I'm pretty sure this was between week 1 and week 2.

atucker4072 02-03-2014 16:17
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Honestly if it becomes a larger issue, more than refs trying to keep score and what have you, they could probably just use cardboard... I don't think it had made that big of an impact YET.

GaryVoshol 02-03-2014 16:19
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker4072 (Post 1352005)
Honestly if it becomes a larger issue, more than refs trying to keep score and what have you, they could probably just use cardboard... I don't think it had made that big of an impact YET.
Is having to replay a match a big impact? A match in eliminations?

Woolly 02-03-2014 16:25
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Maybe instead of a metal bars it should be chain (of a sturdier variety than 2013 chain) with pool noodle around it.

Qbot2640 02-03-2014 16:36
Re: Propose possible fixes for high goals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1352008)
Is having to replay a match a big impact? A match in eliminations?
Why would this result in a match being replayed? Currently, if the ball bounces back out it is not a goal. It is quite clear. - if a referee or other official interpreted a "bounce out" as a reason to replay a game, then they have not followed the current rule.

This bounce potential may negatively impact my team's shot - but that doesn't change the fact that it would still be more unfair to modify now than to continue to work as is...We may modify our approach and make it a non-issue, but that is why we don't register for week one events!


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