Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0#term 172
I can't wait for week 2 events now, should be a bit better.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Goal fixes, G28 fixes, G40 fixes. I'm happy now.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

So if I'm understanding this correctly...
We can drive aggressively and damage caused to say, intakes that are extended are not a cause for penalty? If I drive into a bot with it's intake extended while playing hard defense and it tweaks their intake, that is no cause for a foul?

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Does 1/4" clear polycarbonate refer to thickness?

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I added some formatting to make it easier to see the changes:

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Correct, no foul, as long as it is not strategic. Teams should be aware that high speed contact can occur, and should design the robot, including appendages, appropriately.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

When quoting the update you need to format it too, to make the changes obvious.

This update should fix a lot of the week 1 issues, lets hope they also fixed the behind the scenes FMS problems.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Provided you are not trying to tweak their intake on purpose; Yes.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Yes. Obviously, you can't strategically play defense with the sole purpose being to damage the intake, but if you damage their intake while playing defense, it's okay. Anything put outside the frame perimeter is done so at the team's risk and is fair game. This has been the case since kickoff.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

In general, a team is responsible for any extension outside of the frame perimeter. The update addresses the fact that a team cannot drive into an opponent's extension and get a G28 called against the opponent.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

It better not be strategic or repeated.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

All of this update is great!
Week 2 should go smoothly now.

Or at least acknowledged there was a problem...

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Still no better ball sizing standards, balls still take 10 years to return to play if they leave the field, and refs still have way too much on their plate.

I think they have a ways to go still, but its progress.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

As long as they put a focus on calling that contact inside frame perimeters consistently, that should help a lot.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Okay I see, I thought it to be that way since kickoff but with the addition of a couple things it made me a bit confused.
Also, I understand it cannot be strategic. That's not GP.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

These changes are a good start but I was hoping for something to be done about the pedestals and overwhelming pressure on the refs. Anyone who has competed week one knows that there are still major issues remaining.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

None of those really require rule changes, though. It would still be nice to see them addressed somehow, but this may not be the place to do it.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Things have been done. However, they do not effect the rules and thus are not included in the rule updates. That's all I'll say right now.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

This is barely a start. I have no idea what "adjacent" means, and the manual doesn't define it. How far away is far enough away?

Not to mention this rule only gives human players three more inches. Referees, already busy tracking scoring, possession, penalties, etc. are going to need eagle eyes to get an idea of if this rule is broken.

The contact inside bumper zone rules are barely changed. It's a big improvement, yes, but it still doesn't make it okay to go after a ball that a defender is keeping from you.

No fixes to referees being overworked. No fixes to the pedestal not lighting up (you should be able to get a ball in the case of the pedestal not working). No stated fixes to field reset returning balls too slowly. No fixes to other fundamental game design flaws. I'm not impressed.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

As per what Tyler said, and I can vouch for him, this has been worked on, but won't be reflected in the rules since it's not regulated there.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

What a shame this wasn't employed last week. My team was plagued by balls bouncing off the pipes, some of which lost us games.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Indeed they did, much more than I expected them to be able to do in less than a week. I am very satisfied by the changes they made for Scorekeepers in Week 2, I am looking forward to Arkansas this week!

-Danny

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Scorekeeper , ref and software changes would not be reflected in an update, that is not what they are for.

I would hope that a blog would be upcoming to help explain what other changes would have been made on these points.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Same here. I'm not particularly impressed.

G40 fouls need to be reduced. What they did in this update is not a solution.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Exactly. Any hour now I am going to click on over to the home page and see a new post by Hallry linking to an FRC Blog that makes everything better.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I just realized the change to G40 does not really change anything, the only time you would cross the line is when you are tossing it to your robot, which would be adjacent to the station...

Or am I just reading this wrong?

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Its my understanding that you can extend past the tape as long as there is no robot extending past the edge of the field. I could be completely wrong though.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

So pretty much, keep your human players out of the field area because this G40 penalty will still kill teams.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

After looking at it a while, I think I figured it out:

You have to look at the first part piece by piece.

in to a space defined by the Human Player Barrier Brackets, the SAFETY ZONE, and the GUARDRAIL

Look at the top down pictures they show. Imagine every Human Player Barrier Bracket, SAFETY ZONE (edge), and GUARDRAIL as a line. Each rectangle those lines make is a "space defined by the Human Player Barrier Brackets, the SAFETY ZONE, and the GUARDRAIL". Keep in mind that the HP side of the safety zone is NOT one of these areas. It's already the SAFETY ZONE. If I count correctly, there are 7 of these "areas" down each side of the field. 4 in front of HP stations and 1 between each.

that is either occupied by a ROBOT or adjacent to such a space occupied by a ROBOT

If the rectangle your HP is in also has the robot in it, that is NOT OK. Picture one shows a HP hand and robot appendage in one area defined by the BARRIER, SAFETY ZONE (edge), and 2 Human Player Barrier Brackets. Picture 3 shows the same situation in a different area.

If the rectangle your HP is in is adjacent to a rectangle the robot is in, that is NOT OK. Picture two shows the HP hand in an area defined by the BARRIER, SAFETY ZONE edge, and 2 Human Player Barrier Brackets. The robot appendage is in a SEPARATE area defined by the BARRIER, SAFETY ZONE edge, and 2 Human Player Barrier Brackets, but these two areas are ADJACENT.

If your HP is not in any of these rectangles, you are always OK given the robot is not breaking any rules. this is shown in picture 4.

If the rectangle your HP is in and the rectangle the robot is in are NOT adjacent, you are OK. This is shown in the 5th picture.

EDIT: I thought of an easy way to explain it. If the robot is over the GUARDRAIL, it must be as far away as the next HP station for your HP to cross the SAFETY ZONE edge.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I interpreted it the same way. Not sure what human player would go over the field when no robot was around anyways. Train your human players.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I saw 610's human player foul numerous times when catching the ball from the volunteers.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

It took a little analysis but the new rule does help

First and the biggest thing.... is that UNLESS a robot is reaching over the side of the field.... a human player can use the entire zone up to the field edge. You can't reach in at any time but you can extend right up to it.

The limitation occurs when you have an adjacent robot that is REACHING OVER the side line. THEN if the robot is close you cannot enter the Safety Zone.

This means that if your robot is sitting in front of you and NOT extended outside the field you can reach up to the side line (but not onto the field)

This is eminently reasonable... it allows a robot to extend slightly over the side of the field and then it protects the human player by moving his legal zone back only during the time the robot is reaching outside the field.

This is a good change. If anyone really expected that they would allow human players to reach into the field they were dreaming. This is a good and safe change... I applaud the GDC for the quick action which both protects the students and allows for a better game with less fouls

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I think the changes made to the manual are appropriate but now the next step is to see how they respond to the non rule issues that are problems. Hopefully the FMS issues are reduced.
This year so far I feel bad for refs because of how hard their job is this year and how difficult it is to be in that position.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Can you talk a little bit about what those changes were? Are they listed somewhere?

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

This change to G28 is aggravating. Over the course of three matches, the top half of our robot was ripped off of our frame because other teams were driving around with their collectors out as we were trying to defend against them, and some of them even appeared to deploy their collector into our frame while there was no ball around to collect. We cited G28, and no penalties were given to the other teams. We got fed up trying to repair our robot and finally just put pool noodles and gaffers tape on it to prevent from accidentally possessing an opponents ball...

Now with the rule change, if another robot damages our robot inside our frame perimeter, we'll be told that our robot's actions were the "catalyst" for the damage because we were playing defense...which means we not only extend beyond our frame perimeter at our own risk, we also drive at our own risk, as well. Last week, we saw debris all over the field, electrical components being ripped out of robots, and now the rules change says that it's our fault if we are playing defense?

I love playing defense, but I don't want to play battlebots, and now it seems that if I'm playing with a robot that has high-scoring capability, I can deploy mechanisms and extend as I wish because if it destroys a defending robot, it was their fault, however, as a defensive-oriented robot with a simple collector, if I extend my collector and it violates the frame perimeter of a high-scoring capable robot, would the same call be made?

I love this game. It was designed for teams like mine. Teams that want to contribute to an alliance, but don't have the manufacturing capability, resources or mentors to pull off some of the powerhouse robots we have seen...and I'm not bitter to any of the teams that can pull it off...our team sees them as sources of inspiration and we learn so much from our interactions with these teams...this years game held so much hope for our team because we interpreted the game such that FIRST had finally gotten coopertition right, and had designed a game in which small teams like us could make a big difference in matches. Now I feel like if we don't drive a solid block of metal on wheels around at our next event, it'll be our fault if anything happens to it.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I was really hoping for a rule that speeds up cycles when balls go out of bounds.

If they change the rule to allow the refs/people around the field to inbound the ball as close to its exit point, it would speed up the game by A LOT.

I saw that the volunteers don't really know what's suppose to happen when a ball goes out of bounds - especially in the first 30 games of quals. Right now, they're suppose to give the ball to the human player and then the ball comes back into play - this adds anywhere between 5 and 15 seconds to the cycle.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Something like "if no human players are present in the HUMAN PLAYER ZONES on the ALLIANCE's opposite end of the FIELD, any ALLIANCE BALL exitign the FIELD will be returned to the closest place it left by field personnel."

You can avoid a lot of unnecessary field resets this way.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I'm guessing that by not modifying this rule FIRST is just telling us that we better not let the ball go out of bounds. I can't imagine that they would have not discussed this particular problem amongst themselves when making all the changes. That's my hypothesis

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I'm not sure that's how the rule will be interpreted.
I'm seeing it being more like this:
If you drive into a protrusion that's already out and damage your robot, that's your fault.
However, if the offensive robot extends their protrusion just because you're trying to play defense (there is not a ball around to pick up), then I don't see how you're the catalyst for the damage. In all likelihood, both robots would be fine if the offensive bot keeps it's arm in. Due to the actions of the offensive robot, the damage occurs. G28, damaging or delibrate contact to the inside of the frame perimeter, offensive robot, technical foul, 50 points added to the defensive bot's alliance's score, continue play.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I really hope that isn't the case... it makes no sense for teams to throw the ball out of field - it will still add at least 5 secs to the cycle time (and this is assuming you have an instant touch pickup).

By allowing the ball to be quickly placed on the field, people who don't know the rules can still enjoy the scoring aspect of the game.

Oh well, I hope that the time it takes to return the ball to a HP is not as high as the 2nd week competitions begin.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

As long as teams have HPs in the zones on the other side of the field it'll be fine. Its when Field Reset has to run the ball down the field to give it back is when it takes 15s. Especially since we aren't actually allowed to run (atleast at center line we weren't).

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Its somewhat like a throw in in soccer

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I think you are misinterpreting the rule. A robot CANNOT reach over the edge of the field per G21.

The way I see it, if a robot is there at all (adjacent to the HP zone) you cannot break the plane of the safety zone. It could even be an opposing robot, there just so you have to keep your hands back.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Well, with no opinion on G21, the pictures in Figure 3-7 all show the ROBOT with an appendage sticking past the GUARDRAIL, but not past the SAFETY ZONE.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

The issue is what defines "adjacent"? Hanging over the guardrail? Touching the guardrail? A foot away? Three feet? In the same zone?

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Check out my post earlier in the thread, I sussed out a definition that seems to fit the wording and the pictures. I think that's all we have to go on at this point :)

I agree it could have been written "better" but I am of the belief that it is cleanly explained in the text and pictures.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Once upon a time, the edge of the field was the inviolable barrier. Robots that crossed it got technical fouls. Players who crossed it go technical fouls. Everything was clearly defined, and the barrier was clear.

Week 0 events revealed that many robots were crossing the edge of the field with their appendages, and big foul points resulted. The GDC then reduced the penalty for crossing the field boundary to a regular foul, and came up with a new inviolable barrier: the boundary of the safety zone. As we saw in the week 1 events, resulted in whole bunch of penalties. This was primarily due to the face that human players can't easily judge where the tape line is.

The new rule change keeps the same graduated level of penalties for robots, foul for crossing the field barrier and technical foul for crossing the safety zone boundary. But it moves the barrier for the human players back to the edge of the field, EXCEPT when there is a robot already sticking into the safety zone.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Counterexample: 2005



EDIT: nevermind, you must be talking about this year.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Per this official image from the FRC Manual. Adjacent would be the space between the two human player barriers. If a ROBOT is in the SAFETY ZONE in either of those two areas, the HUMAN PLAYER cannot extend into the safety zone.

However, it is still a FOUL if a ROBOT to intentionally extends into the SAFETY ZONE anywhere on the field.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

It's not provided in the diagram, but would this be okay? (I'm reasonably sure from my reading that it is)



Here, the robot is entirely in the field, and the human player is in the safety zone but not in the field.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

That should be OK, since the robot is fully within the field perimeter.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Or this? I think any reasonable person would say that the robot is "adjacent" to the barrier...

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

This is pretty important, basically the SAFETY ZONE only comes into play when a robot is hanging outside of the field. It basically goes back to the way the rules were originally written and adds that, if a robot reaches outside the field WITHOUT incurring a penalty (specifically stated as something you should not do) you can no longer reach up to the GUARDRAIL. In that case, you have to obey the SAFETY ZONE.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Again, OK since only one thing (the human player) is in the safety zone.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Pretty sure that, YES, that is now legal. Because that adjacent space is not defined by "Human Player Barrier Brackets, the SAFETY ZONE, and the GUARDRAIL", it does not count.

A violation only occurs if a robot occupies and adjacent space that is outside of the field (ie. as defined above)

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

"Adjacent" would apply to the zone the robot is currently not in, not the robot.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

If you call the "space defined by the Human Player Barrier Brackets, the SAFETY Zone, and the GUARDRAIL" the BUFFER ZONE, I think the new G40 wording becomes a little easier to understand.

This is just my personal interpretation. I believe it maintains the intent of the rule.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

When reading through the manual on kickoff day, our team strongly considered building "flaps" to extend outward and assist in catching the ball but we ended up deciding not to pursue it a strong part because of the penalty for extending outside the field. Now that this is changed, we are going to attatch a blocker/catcher because we do not have to worry as much about this any more. A little unfortunate for us as we could have worked on it during the season seeing as we thought it through but it's all good!!

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

If I understand correctly, it is still against the rules to intentionally extend outside the field. The human player penalty just changes if it occurs inadvertently.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Yep, that's a G21 violation. Do it once and it's a foul. Make a habit of it, that a technical. Touch anything outside, and that's a red card and disable.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Perfect! Yeah we were mainly worrying about trying to get a ball from a human player and a defending robot ramming us causing us to be outside the field near the human player. We don't want to kill our human player :yikes:

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

In my opinion a little too much analysis. This rule could have been a lot clearer IMHO. Especially for those teams that don't visit this site regularly enough to get the detailed analysis from others.

Re: Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04
 

I'm actually curious about the G38 change for two reasons.

First is that the rule in the update differs from that in the manual.

The Update:

The Manual

In a case like this, which is the rule?

Going onto the reason why I ask. It seems to me that based on this change, that a team member seems to be permitted to pass the ball to a human player within the alliance station, so long as the team member is not the coach (G34).

However under the update, I would take this one step further and say that it permits a team member to pass the ball to another team member within the alliance station.

I cannot seem to find a rule saying that a HUMAN PLAYER needs to be the one to inbound the ball.

Meaning an alliance could have up to 3 INBOUNDERS and 3 HUMAN PLAYERS if they only needed one driver for each robot.

Basically I'm wondering if a 1-2-2 Human formation is legal. 1 INBOUNDER AT PEDESTAL, 2 INBOUNDERS at either guardrail, and 2 HUMAN PLAYERS down field.