Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

But doesn't that make sense? If everyone could bring 3 robots, one for demo, one for t-shirts and one for the competition, wouldn't that become a space and then safety issue? How would we decide who gets to shoot t-shirts and when? Can everyone parade? I would think that if you get the event's permission beforehand and don't use the robot for competition related reasons (or award related reasons) you should be fine.

Edit: As for the ruling on the robot being used to supplement their chairman's video, I think that makes sense IF you define awards as part of the competition.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Yeah, that actually sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Also sounds reasonable if the parts listed are on your practice bot in your nearby shop/lab, or sitting on the shelf in your nearby shop/lab. I don't even think the list needs to be written down - just commit yourself to using only those fabricated parts.
You've defined a set of fabricated parts (presumably less than 45 pounds total weight) that is static (i.e. on your list)) to which you have access at the event. In a sense, the rest of the practice bot is just a "carrier" for the listed fabricated parts (and for any COTS parts on the practice bot too, in my opinion).

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I agree with this. This meets, what in my opinion is, the intent of the rule.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Which is what I felt should have been the logic to begin with. :P


Buuuut, under this logic I can bring my demo bot with 0 parts "listed" and it shouldn't count? I can use it to shoot poof balls at young kids and get them interested in robots? A use, I might add, entirely within the goals of FIRST above and beyond the competition.

(Again, devil's advocate)

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

It doesn't even make sense that an old ROBOT for a Chairman's Presentation (or any other reason, for that matter) should count against the 45lbs in R18, because it doesn't meet the definition of ROBOT in the glossary, which specifically requires that it be clearly designed to play Aerial Assist.

For the purposes of the 2014 rulebook, an Ultimate Ascent robot, or Rebound Rumble robot, or Logomotion robot, or Breakaway robot is not a ROBOT.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You're right, it is not a ROBOT. It is a FABRICATED ITEM.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

This is my favorite thread since this one and this other one.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I actually wouldn't mind if the GDC required or strongly encourage teams to, in future years' games, provide a list of all of the parts in their allowance. I mean, it's good practice anyway to have one...

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I am going to risk an onslaught of abuse here...but I want to propose that this is not a "gray area" rule at all, and the only "gray area" in play is each team's degree of compliance.

Static Set of 45 lbs: This can't be an "as you pull it" or a list...this is what you carry into the event with you...and nothing else (fabricated) comes in. Identical copies of parts count...anything assembled counts in its entirety...a COTS wheel with a COTS pulley attached is now a fabricated assembly and counts. A practice robot that weighs 46 pounds violates the rule if it is brought in - even if you only take one COTS screw off for use. A practice robot that weighs 46 pounds and is left outside violates two rules...this one, and the one citing where you can work.

Practice Robot in the Parking Lot: If it weighs less than 45 lbs (when added to any other items you withheld from bagging) you should have brought it into the pit area where you're allowed to work on it...otherwise it is an illegal assembly that you should have left in your shop. If it has 10 talons on it that you need, it is unfortunate that you did not remove them and bring them in with you...now you have to have one next-day aired from Andymark, borrow one from spare parts or from another team.

Can we avoid "lawyering" the rules here and take what is written at face value? Please stop forcing FIRST to make the rules more and more complex by pushing the limits of interpretation. Demonstrate by model our attempt to go above and beyond to comply to the rules...bring your withholding allowance in to the event, work on your items in the pit, and leave the spare robots (from whatever year they were made) in your shop. If you have some spare COTS items, like Talons or wheels or pulleys...pull them off your practice robot and bring them along.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

This is kind of an aside, but I just want to emphasize how asinine this ruling is. According to the GDC, even if a robot does not meet the Manual definition of "robot" (specifically, designed to play Aerial Assist), you can't bring it. Numerous events have had teams bring old robots for the purposes of display, interacting with the public, whatever. A strict interpretation of this rule restricts even *non-FRC robots* from entering events. If this was enforced do they have any idea how much impact this would have on events? On the ability of the regional and teams to interact with the public?

I know at the Boston Regional last year, 125's old robots were on display and operating around the perimeter of the dome. At every WPI regional there are various WPI robots on display at the venue entrance. So many events have FTC demonstrations that are now illegal to do if one of those FTC robots is affiliated with an FRC team. This is incredibly shortsighted.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You bring up a lot of strong points in your post without a doubt, but I just want to talk on the other side of some of them for a moment, just to illustrate how poorly thought out and written some of the rules are as is.

Lawyering the rules, in my experience, usually stems from a rule set that is either too (or very) restrictive, and/or poorly written. If the rules were written more simply, rather than made complicated, I think the instances of lawyering would decrease significantly.

Take your wheel and pulley example - why is a wheel, with a pulley attached a 'fabricated component' or custom assembly - if all of the parts that it is made of COTS? Who really benefits from a restriction like this? Take my team for example, we wear through a set of (8) wheels once per event, and thankfully this year, we have enough extra parts floating around to be able to make an entire 'spare set' prepped with the gears, sprockets, etc required to swap a wheel. We're well enough within the withholding allowance that doing this doesn't bring us close to the 45lb limit, but if we were, we'd be forced to break all of these wheel assemblies down into their COTS base parts, specifically wheels, sprockets, screws, bearings and gears, and reassemble them on the Day Zero/Practice day of our event. In our specific instance, we're fortunate enough to have more than enough kids to do tasks like this without it being an issue, but not every team is like us. Who really gets hurt here? The teams that are well off, or those who are not?

Here's another way to look at this whole scenario: If I were to organize my spare parts in such a way, that they're essentially one unit for the purpose of bringing them in the door, and storing them in the pit, am I in violation of the rules? Say I took a piece of plywood, drilled a bunch of holes in it, ziptied 10 Speed Controllers, a cRio, a DSC, a PDB, and a bunch of motors to it, do they all become part of a fabricated assembly? Some would argue yes, because technically, they are treated as an assembly, but in reality, I never intend to use them as such... This is significantly different in implementation than bringing a practice bot to an event, but the purpose of the two items is essentially the same.

I guess the TLDR here is that it would be nice if FIRST either relaxed the rules regarding spare parts, or was more specific in how the withholding allowance is to be used. I can't get comfortable with the idea of not being allowed to build spare parts, or spare sub-assemblies, since that either limits how things can be made, and rewards teams that rely heavily on COTS solutions, or forces me to make sure that everything built is capable of withstanding an entire season's worth of abuse....

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Can we stop lawyering the rules please. Do not bring more than 45 lbs of prefabricated items into the venue means exactly what it says. I think its that simple. Now there are many different ways to interpret it but that is not the participants job, their job is to follow the rules simply as written.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

There is not much lawyering going on here. Its more like complaining. I don't like these rules but I have understood since kickoff. That does not change the rule nor does my complaining affect my teams compliance with the rule. We made some extra fab parts during the season and bag them with the robot. we probably wont even need the original 30 pound limit.

What concerns me most, is that if you want to borrow one of my assembled versa gearboxes, I will have to dismantle it before I give it to you. If you have a wheel with riveted tread that can replace one of my broken wheels, I cannot accept it as a replacement even if you remove the tread and rivets. Its unfortunate but that's the reality of the rules. And yes there is no gray area. team cannot share fabricated items outside of the original withholding allowance.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

It depends. If you bought the wheel/pulley combination, already assembled, from Wheels R Us, then it's a COTS item. If you bought the wheel from Wheels R Us, and the pulley from Pulleys R Us, then it's a FABRICATED ITEM (the definition of which includes "constructed", "manufactured", and "produced"). Like it or not, silly or not, that's what the rules say.

I'm going to say "no", with an evil grin. :D Since the bumper rules (somewhat) clearly define fasteners -- and say that "tie wraps" (which I'll translate to "zip tie") are not allowed to attach bumpers to the robot -- the whole thing isn't a FABRICATED ITEM. The plywood is, though -- you drilled holes.

Note that my tongue is firmly in my cheek on this, but wouldn't it be simpler to just put the parts in some kind of container? You may need the zip ties to make repairs on your ROBOT.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Glad you made the right call.

Everyone else,
Forgetting the Robot and Tournament rules for a moment, keep this in mind:

Judges, volunteers and other persons involved in every regional read these threads. Key staff are asked to keep an eye open for actions and behaviour to share with the judges. This is usually in reference to great things and acts of kindness by a team to help another.
Bringing the entire robot and keeping it within a mile so you can use parts off of it, or practice at the hotel falls into the other category of something a volunteer would report to judges. In deliberations, such a piece of information can act as the losing coin toss that will swing an award to a teams that merely brought their allowed withholding rather than their whole practice robot. Such an award could be one that would qualify a team to go to St. Louis.