Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Just adding my 2 cents to this, the way I would read the rule is that the 45 pounds you bring into the venue must not change.
Meaning that, a team brings 30 pounds of assembly 'X' on thursday into the venue, then on friday they bring 10 more pounds of assemblies 'Y', they have now used a total of 40 pounds of their withholding allowance.
On saturday they realized they need another 10 pound assembly 'Z', they can not bring this in as is, even if they remove assemblies X and Y from the venue.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I would interpret that Q&A to mean if your pre-2013 robot meets the definition of a robot in 2014, then it's subject to the 2014 robot rules. (Unlikely, and in all but the most unusual cases, inherently illegal due to parts usage rules.) If it meets the definition of a fabricated part, and you wish to be able to use any part of it in the 2014 competition, it must meet those rules as well (part of the static 45 lb). That's uncontroversial.

If it's just a prop for your presentation, it's exactly like any other thing you made to impress the judges. You don't have to count your scrapbook as part of the 45 lb, because you're not going to use it on the field or otherwise incorporate it into the 2014 robot. Same thing here.

(This is based on the principle that the Q&A can't create a situation that isn't supported by the rules. The robot rules, from which the 45 lb is derived, don't apply to props you fabricated, tools you made, food you prepared, etc..)

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You're absolutely right, that is what the rules say, I'm just illustrating some of the more frustrating bits of them.

Your expansion on the wheel and pulley example actually makes me think of another interesting COTS part case... We bought transmissions from a COTS vendor this year, as did many other teams. The transmissions came with all of the parts required to complete the transmission, including a pneumatic cylinder, motors, pinions, etc - but we were required to assemble the transmission.

Now, is the assembled transmission still considered a COTS item, since it was bought with all of these parts as a complete unit, although the vendor does not assemble the transmission? Does the assembly of the transmission make it a fabricated component?

I see what you did here... I guess I was trying to illustrate a different way to view the fabricated parts rules, but may have been stretching things a bit. The TLDR with this point is basically that if a practice robot is being used as a storage 'thing' for a series of COTS parts, is it any different than having them in a tote/box/etc? Not really, or at least I don't think so.... Thankfully, we keep our parts in boxes and bins, since they're significantly easier to move around... :D

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Dustin, here is your answer.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Q416.
Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.

A few years ago, in Atlanta, the Killer Bees (FIRST TEAM 33) plastered much of the Georgia Dome with little black and yellow bee antennae. These were clearly fabricated. Were they supposed to have weighed those and count them as part of their 30 lbs. of fabricated materials? How about signs? Mascot costumes?

The reply from the Q&A regarding bringing in a demo/old bot just to present to Chairman's is therefore illogical to me too. (And, as Chris and Andrew have stated, not really in the "spirit of FIRST".) Did they really think they couldn't trust the team to not cannibalize the demo bot for their competition bot? If that was their concern, why not just tell the team not to do so, i.e. that the demo bot can only be used for demonstration purposes, and nothing (not one bolt, not one zip tie)from that demo bot can end up on the playing field.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I've read this whole thread. What nobody has mentioned yet is that this whole thread is just more reinforcement for the idea that bagging is almost pointless and should just go away. Basically, to be both competitive and legal, you have to have a practice robot AND a separate set of spares. For many items this year, that's actually what we did. That gets expensive fast. We can't afford to sustain this kind of expense every year.

Do away with practice bots, either by specifically disallowing them or by ditching the bag. Problems solved. The build season hasn't truly been 6 weeks since over half a decade ago.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

We ought to have a thread to discuss the details of those two options (compared to the status quo). Putting together an effective rule to ban practice robots would be a challenging exercise in balancing a lot of competing interests. By the same token, if they eliminate the bag, should FIRST impose any limits on fabrication and modification past the end of the 6 weeks—and if so, how and why?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

At the risk of re-igniting a fire that was dying out, I have an observation. At GTR East, one team's robot was stuck in transit and didn't make it to the event. Another team graciously donated an entire kit-bot chassis. They and other teams donated enough parts to make a pretty good robot for the team with a missing bot.

Where did the generous team get that kit-bot chassis? was it brought into the venue in un-assembled form? Did they run back to the shop or trailer and pick it up? was it counted as part (most) of their 45 pound allowance? What about all the other items that were donated?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should be penalized for helping out, and I don't think any of whatever happened should be against the rules. I am just putting it out there as food for thought.

Flame on.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

In that kind of situation, I assume it would be a local team that had the kitbot chassis at their shop. I would also guess that they asked the LRI if they could do it, and they allowed it. One of the primary goals of inspectors is to make sure all teams get out on the field. If that's the case, the LRI (who has the final say in that situation) may have allowed it.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

So you are saying that the LRI has the authority to waive the rules? I didn't realize that. I thought the LRI was there to enforce the rules.

The LRI often (always?) has the hotline back to HQ and can consult with them on these issues. The LRI may also make judgment calls when a situation is not black and white. HQ and event officials can make exceptions to rules for exceptional cases... and they seem to do so only if in the pursuit of inspiration. The information provided in this case is incomplete so how can we judge?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

If a team comes up to them and says their robot didn't make it to the competition, and another team wants to help out in that manner, then the LRIs will do anything in their power to get them out on the field. Is it strict by the rules? No. Is it in the spirit of FIRST? Absolutely. That's why most people are willing to turn a blind eye in this situation.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I'd like to wrap up my part of this thread, being the OP and all that.

First, I had no idea that the presence of a practice bot in the vicinity of a regional was such a problem. I personally had/have no desire to take fabricated parts of that robot for use in competition. I also would not allow any member of my team to do so. My reason is that it's not fair to the other teams.

For instance, we had a functioning winch shaft on the practice bot, but I fabricated a new one for the real bot in the pits. Then it failed, so I had the NASA machine shop fabricate another using a used piece of shaft that we had brought into the pits with us as part of our 45 lbs. of "stuff". Thank you, NASA!

Also, if any other team lost a robot due to transportation issues, I'd be happy to supply our practice bot to them, whether or not they are playing against our team. That's what FIRST is about.

Have fun!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

From what I have heard another teams robot (not practice) who was not competing was offered. FIRST responded that even though extremely gracious it would not be allowed. I have no knowledge if kitbot was assembled.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

And Steve that would be team 2935 that would have allowed the team to use !