Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Well, I'm glad I asked. I had no idea that this was such a loaded topic.

Our intent in bringing the practice bot was to harvest COTS parts from it. We brought enough raw materials to fabricate repair parts in the pits, and have done so, rather than use fabricated parts of the practice bot.

Based on the responses here, it sounds like it's more sporting to do the harvesting at home. We'll do that for our next regional.

Thanks for all your input.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

None. The unclear part is part of the hypothetical of bringing 30 COTS gearboxes of different ratios to provide different speeds to intake rollers.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

If your different gear ratio caused the gearbox to have a different weight, then you should have the bot re-inspected (as you should do any time to make a modification if that modification makes a change to your weight, or adds a new component.) But it is perfectly legal to bring all those gearboxes, and they do not count as part of your weight. Obviously, you could not install all those gearboxes due to rules about number of motors, weight, etc. But you could certainly bring them in.

Why dont we ask first?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You should have the robot re-inspected regardless of whether or not the weight was changed - nothing in the rule about re-inspections mentions weight.

Also note that if you plan to repeatedly switch gearboxes, the inspectors may consider them "interchangeable parts" and add all of them to your robot's weight.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

That's what I was driving at but that's a conversation for a different thread. This one is intense enough.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

It was a scenario prior to inspection to go to the practice field and see what ratio worked best. It's contrived but well within the rules.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I never said that; I was talking about the parts taken off of a robot. There's nothing wrong with using left-overs from whatever raw materials you had from wherever or whenever. Those aren't fabricated items, but the part you cut off to use on a robot is. I'm pretty sure I remember a Q&A or rule somewhere that says it's OK to cut raw materials in order to be able to transport them, but that may have been some previous year. I sure hope that still applies.

That's an interesting one. By definition, your 24" piece from last year is a fabricated part. Cutting 9" off of it doesn't seem to be an issue (you're using the old stock as a raw material that happens to be 24" long, I think), if that 9" is unmodified (although I could be wrong). But if, for example, it has mounting holes drilled in the 9" section, then it is a fabricated part (by definition) and isn't allowed on this year's robot. The first sentence in the blue box under R13: Also see the Q&A; Q102.

OK. You're entitled to your opinion, of course; obviously I disagree. Show me the rule that says I'm wrong. And I'm sure if you think a bit you can find that you've seen more ridiculous things in FRC; I know I have. :)

I would hope that scrap pieces from somewhere besides a robot could be treated as raw materials, as long as the "scrap" isn't some kind of assembly used as a unit that isn't available as a COTS part for everyone else. Remember, I was specifically talking about parts taken off previous years' robots. I'm not sure that further modification from a fabrication makes something legal or not; sounds like a good Q&A. I think re-using mounting holes drilled last year might make it illegal. Likewise a shape (say you drilled new mounting holes in a cam you made last year) that was created in a previous year may not be legal.

The history of a part *can* have bearing on its legality as a robot part; see my citations above. And yes you do get an advantage. You don't have to spend the time to fabricate the part, and because you built it in a previous year you violate the build season schedule.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

The whole problem here is the idea of a duplicate robot for the purposes of spare parts. Having one on site means that you have access to potentially 120 lbs of spare parts. Even if you only bring in one piece from the "backup bot", you have access to any part of that robot. Just because it is in your trailer, truck, shop or whatever instead of inside the venue, you still have access to 120 lbs of fabricated items.

I don't think anyone is contesting stockpiles of COTS or items that can be re-purposed as "raw stock" (reuse is better than recycling!). Bring all of that stuff you want - as COTS or raw stock. I find no issue with hacking off some material from a robot carcass for use as long as what was used was in the form of raw material when you began working on it in the pit.

The issue is that by having a "backup bot", you have brought and have access to more than the withholding allowance of 45 lbs of FABRICATED parts - even if it isn't inside the venue.

If the withholding allowance is only specific to what is in the actual building, it is essentially meaningless. Build any amount of replacement/upgrade parts and then select which ones you need based on how the event plays out... That's not what I think is the intent of the allowance in the first place.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Mr. Schreiber:

1: "The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab."

How about closing the door(s) to your lab and not accessing the fabricated parts in there during the competition? You could just bring 45 pounds into your pit area on Thursday.

2: "This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair. "

Only if you use it. Again, put yourself in the shoes of any other team at the Northeastern Regional. More importantly, however -
It's not a problem to have your shop/lab/parts at the same institution as the competition. The distance from the field to your CNC machine is not the issue.

3: "FIRST isn't fair and neither is life."

Both true statements. But recognize that part of the attraction of sports in general is that there are rules to try to "level the playing field." If the goal of FIRST is to change a culture, and to make it a mass movement, it is in all of our interest to try to make the competitions as fair as we can, and to attract as many students as we can.

4: "I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules."
That's what the emoticon was for! No assertion made.
Good luck at your competitions!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I'm surprised this thread blew up so much. 2/2 for Bit Buckets controversy threads. :)

I find it interesting that the term "intent of the rule" is used so frequently in this thread. As none of us are on the GDC, I doubt any of us have a thorough understanding of what the "intent of the rule" is. My take on the rules is that we have a limited weight worth of withholding parts so that a team cannot show up to a competition with a completely brand new robot to replace the bagged one. I do not think the intent of the rule is to limit how many spare duplicate parts can be brought to an event, although the 2014 wording acts as a limiter on this. Again, not on the GDC, so I am simply posting an opinion.

Also, I'm still waiting for a team to build three robots, bag two, and develop the third as a practice robot at home. That should lead to some fun discussion!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

There have been other threads on this topic. I like this one in particular.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

The only unclear thing I see in this is the word 'static'. It could mean
A. You can't exchange parts throughout the event
B. You must decide what you will bring before you start the event

If the intention is A, then a practice robot in the parking lot is fine, and you can replace stuff as it breaks, as long as you don't rip more than 45 lbs of manufactured parts off it. As far as I'm concerned, if its COTS, then you can take whatever you like.

If the intention is B, a practice robot in the parking lot that you take stuff off as it breaks would be illegal unless perhaps you kept a list of what you could take off your practice robot,. Again, COTS doesn't count and you can go to your practice bot(or anywhere, for that matter) and rip as much COTS off as you like.

For the shop being in the venue or 5000 miles away, this seems entirely irrelevant. You can use a static(defined either in A or B) 45lb set of fabricated materials. I think its entirely fine even to go into your shop. Your chairman's presenters can practice, or you can work on or view CAD, or you can even fabricate stuff to bring in as witholding to your next event. In addition, you can grab as much COTS stuff as you like. You CANNOT manufacture items that you put on the competition robot at the competition its currently at.

As for the giving manufactured parts to other teams thing. We'll use the example of blockers, if the blocker were created at the event or bagged with a robot, you can do anything you want with it, (providing it passes inspection, modular parts, etc). If the blocker was brought in with witholding, I see it okay if the team that brought the blocker gives it to someone on their alliance, and then the team gives it back to the team who built it after their match. The team who built it can then redistribute it to someone on their alliance in a new match. I see this as okay as the team that gains the most from it is the team that used it as part of their witholding.

*I'm not trying to find manual passages that back me up, I'm just trying to look at the spirit of the rule

** Can someone do a QA for
"If I bring a practice robot to an event and leave it in a trailer, removing parts from it as they break on my competition robot, but I never remove more than 45lbs, would I be violating 'static' in R18?"

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Sorry, but my team can only afford so many Talons, and half of them are on our practice bot. Practice bot comes with, us, but it also doesn't actually have anything other than COTS parts for us to harvest this year.

You're free to your opinion and I'm free to mine, and until I hear from a definitive (and authoritative) source, such as Q&A, I'll play by our interpretation of the intent of the rules.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I'll do it. Forgive me, but I haven't ever posted a Q. I'm registered. How do I do it?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You have to be logged in using your team's account. (See TIMS for that.)

Then you have to search for a similar question.

Then you get the "submit a question" button. Click, and you get 300 characters, or something like that. I suggest doing a followup question off of Q416, asking if using an old or practice robot that weighed more than 45 lbs and was kept outside the arena as a parts supply would be legal, provided that less than 45 lbs were brought in total. It's a similar situation.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I don't get it. Are your Talons fabricated parts? Do you have more than 45 lb of them? (So many, indeed.)

Why would that justify bringing your whole practice bot, rather than just 45 lb of fabricated parts? (Or does your practice bot weigh less than 45 lb?)

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Keep in mind that an outsider to FIRST just reading the manual would almost certainly consider using the 45lb withholding allowance to overhaul the robot on Thursday as against the "spirit" of the stop build rules. You're supposed to build a robot in 6 weeks, why should you be able to keep working on a large part of your robot far past ship date?

If you look at the rule in question, it appears like you're allowed to bring 45lbs of fabricated parts in to the event, and can't change what counts as that 45lbs as the event goes on. Does it really matter where those parts came from?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

If they are versa planetaries for example they are only COTS items if they aren't assembled. If they had previously been assembled you can return them to being COTS parts by disassembling them to the state they are in when purchased. This applies to all items that are purchased un-assembled which applies to many transmissions.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

That has nothing to do with them counting towards the weight of your robot. If they are intended as interchangeable parts (a concept which is not fully defined in the rules), they all count.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

So when you read the rule, what you see is "unlimited COTS items and raw material, unless you plan to use those items on your robot."?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

My understanding of the hypothetical versaplanetary problem is as follows.

1) Are the gearboxes pre-assembled? If yes, they are modified, in a way that is intended to be for the robot in question, and should count towards the 45 pounds. If not, or if they are disassembled back to original condition, they are COTS. Even so, "modifying" a gearbox by putting it together isn't something I as your competitor would grouse about, unless...

2) they are intended to be swapped out interchangeably to modify the performance of the robot, especially from round to round, based on the desired function per each round's competitive requirements. If so, you are treating them the same way other teams might treat interchangeable appendages. In this case, they should all definitely count towards your 45, and I WOULD grouse about it.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

1) I think you're pretty safe in your understanding, since this very example is used in the manual when discussing fabricated parts and COTS items. :)
2) And if this is the case, ALL of the interchangeable gearboxes need to be weighed with your robot and total 120 lbs or less. In which case you don't need to be re-inspected when you change them from round to round. This having nothing to do with them being COTS or not, of course.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Unless the gearboxes come from VexPro unassembled, and you assemble them, they should not count towards the 45 since they're COTS. If some or all of them are used interchangeably on your robot, then every gearbox that is used counts toward the 120 lb robot weight.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Wait, you mean like I could do if I merely had a list of parts off my practice bot that was sitting in the trailer?

Hmm...

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

FRC Q&A 396:

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...-long-as-we-do

Some food for thought. I think I'm even more confused by their definition of static in this case.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Me too >.<

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

All that they're saying is that the Robot Access Period is considered part of your event; since the period is intended to replace the first day of competition at 2-day events. Once you decide what your withholding allowance is for the event during the Robot Access period, you can't change it.

This is to keep teams with 2-day events from having an advantage by being able to add 45 lbs to the bag during their access period and bringing another 45 lbs to competition, giving them an effective 90 lbs of withholding.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

So from what I'm gathering, according to the definition of "static", it's okay to have in mind what you need to pull from your practice bot by the event, but you can't decide to pull your arm beforehand, but then pull your intake during the middle of competition? Or is it just saying that the Robot Access period is a disjointed part of the event, and for teams going to a district competition, the withheld set of items can't change between the access period and the friday of competition?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

The latter.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Again, the fact that they're mentioning "a set of withheld parts that cannot change during a competition" seems to clearly imply that you must know before the competition which parts are in that set. If you bring a whole practice bot, and only happen to take off 45lbs of parts but could not have, if asked, said what those parts would be at the outset, then you clearly weren't working with a "set of withheld parts" that weighed under 45lbs at the outset.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
Follow FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.
I think this pretty much solves the problem.
If the GDC counts a old robot against the 45 pound with holding, they would consider a new robot the same way.
So now lets stop :deadhorse: and go play Aerial Assist :D

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I guess no t-shirt cannon robots allowed at competition anymore...

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Not to mention, this ruling makes it illegal for any team to bring a t-shirt cannon or demo bot to parade during the break time before elims or awards.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

But doesn't that make sense? If everyone could bring 3 robots, one for demo, one for t-shirts and one for the competition, wouldn't that become a space and then safety issue? How would we decide who gets to shoot t-shirts and when? Can everyone parade? I would think that if you get the event's permission beforehand and don't use the robot for competition related reasons (or award related reasons) you should be fine.

Edit: As for the ruling on the robot being used to supplement their chairman's video, I think that makes sense IF you define awards as part of the competition.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Yeah, that actually sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Also sounds reasonable if the parts listed are on your practice bot in your nearby shop/lab, or sitting on the shelf in your nearby shop/lab. I don't even think the list needs to be written down - just commit yourself to using only those fabricated parts.
You've defined a set of fabricated parts (presumably less than 45 pounds total weight) that is static (i.e. on your list)) to which you have access at the event. In a sense, the rest of the practice bot is just a "carrier" for the listed fabricated parts (and for any COTS parts on the practice bot too, in my opinion).

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I agree with this. This meets, what in my opinion is, the intent of the rule.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Which is what I felt should have been the logic to begin with. :P


Buuuut, under this logic I can bring my demo bot with 0 parts "listed" and it shouldn't count? I can use it to shoot poof balls at young kids and get them interested in robots? A use, I might add, entirely within the goals of FIRST above and beyond the competition.

(Again, devil's advocate)

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

It doesn't even make sense that an old ROBOT for a Chairman's Presentation (or any other reason, for that matter) should count against the 45lbs in R18, because it doesn't meet the definition of ROBOT in the glossary, which specifically requires that it be clearly designed to play Aerial Assist.

For the purposes of the 2014 rulebook, an Ultimate Ascent robot, or Rebound Rumble robot, or Logomotion robot, or Breakaway robot is not a ROBOT.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You're right, it is not a ROBOT. It is a FABRICATED ITEM.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

This is my favorite thread since this one and this other one.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I actually wouldn't mind if the GDC required or strongly encourage teams to, in future years' games, provide a list of all of the parts in their allowance. I mean, it's good practice anyway to have one...

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I am going to risk an onslaught of abuse here...but I want to propose that this is not a "gray area" rule at all, and the only "gray area" in play is each team's degree of compliance.

Static Set of 45 lbs: This can't be an "as you pull it" or a list...this is what you carry into the event with you...and nothing else (fabricated) comes in. Identical copies of parts count...anything assembled counts in its entirety...a COTS wheel with a COTS pulley attached is now a fabricated assembly and counts. A practice robot that weighs 46 pounds violates the rule if it is brought in - even if you only take one COTS screw off for use. A practice robot that weighs 46 pounds and is left outside violates two rules...this one, and the one citing where you can work.

Practice Robot in the Parking Lot: If it weighs less than 45 lbs (when added to any other items you withheld from bagging) you should have brought it into the pit area where you're allowed to work on it...otherwise it is an illegal assembly that you should have left in your shop. If it has 10 talons on it that you need, it is unfortunate that you did not remove them and bring them in with you...now you have to have one next-day aired from Andymark, borrow one from spare parts or from another team.

Can we avoid "lawyering" the rules here and take what is written at face value? Please stop forcing FIRST to make the rules more and more complex by pushing the limits of interpretation. Demonstrate by model our attempt to go above and beyond to comply to the rules...bring your withholding allowance in to the event, work on your items in the pit, and leave the spare robots (from whatever year they were made) in your shop. If you have some spare COTS items, like Talons or wheels or pulleys...pull them off your practice robot and bring them along.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

This is kind of an aside, but I just want to emphasize how asinine this ruling is. According to the GDC, even if a robot does not meet the Manual definition of "robot" (specifically, designed to play Aerial Assist), you can't bring it. Numerous events have had teams bring old robots for the purposes of display, interacting with the public, whatever. A strict interpretation of this rule restricts even *non-FRC robots* from entering events. If this was enforced do they have any idea how much impact this would have on events? On the ability of the regional and teams to interact with the public?

I know at the Boston Regional last year, 125's old robots were on display and operating around the perimeter of the dome. At every WPI regional there are various WPI robots on display at the venue entrance. So many events have FTC demonstrations that are now illegal to do if one of those FTC robots is affiliated with an FRC team. This is incredibly shortsighted.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You bring up a lot of strong points in your post without a doubt, but I just want to talk on the other side of some of them for a moment, just to illustrate how poorly thought out and written some of the rules are as is.

Lawyering the rules, in my experience, usually stems from a rule set that is either too (or very) restrictive, and/or poorly written. If the rules were written more simply, rather than made complicated, I think the instances of lawyering would decrease significantly.

Take your wheel and pulley example - why is a wheel, with a pulley attached a 'fabricated component' or custom assembly - if all of the parts that it is made of COTS? Who really benefits from a restriction like this? Take my team for example, we wear through a set of (8) wheels once per event, and thankfully this year, we have enough extra parts floating around to be able to make an entire 'spare set' prepped with the gears, sprockets, etc required to swap a wheel. We're well enough within the withholding allowance that doing this doesn't bring us close to the 45lb limit, but if we were, we'd be forced to break all of these wheel assemblies down into their COTS base parts, specifically wheels, sprockets, screws, bearings and gears, and reassemble them on the Day Zero/Practice day of our event. In our specific instance, we're fortunate enough to have more than enough kids to do tasks like this without it being an issue, but not every team is like us. Who really gets hurt here? The teams that are well off, or those who are not?

Here's another way to look at this whole scenario: If I were to organize my spare parts in such a way, that they're essentially one unit for the purpose of bringing them in the door, and storing them in the pit, am I in violation of the rules? Say I took a piece of plywood, drilled a bunch of holes in it, ziptied 10 Speed Controllers, a cRio, a DSC, a PDB, and a bunch of motors to it, do they all become part of a fabricated assembly? Some would argue yes, because technically, they are treated as an assembly, but in reality, I never intend to use them as such... This is significantly different in implementation than bringing a practice bot to an event, but the purpose of the two items is essentially the same.

I guess the TLDR here is that it would be nice if FIRST either relaxed the rules regarding spare parts, or was more specific in how the withholding allowance is to be used. I can't get comfortable with the idea of not being allowed to build spare parts, or spare sub-assemblies, since that either limits how things can be made, and rewards teams that rely heavily on COTS solutions, or forces me to make sure that everything built is capable of withstanding an entire season's worth of abuse....

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Can we stop lawyering the rules please. Do not bring more than 45 lbs of prefabricated items into the venue means exactly what it says. I think its that simple. Now there are many different ways to interpret it but that is not the participants job, their job is to follow the rules simply as written.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

There is not much lawyering going on here. Its more like complaining. I don't like these rules but I have understood since kickoff. That does not change the rule nor does my complaining affect my teams compliance with the rule. We made some extra fab parts during the season and bag them with the robot. we probably wont even need the original 30 pound limit.

What concerns me most, is that if you want to borrow one of my assembled versa gearboxes, I will have to dismantle it before I give it to you. If you have a wheel with riveted tread that can replace one of my broken wheels, I cannot accept it as a replacement even if you remove the tread and rivets. Its unfortunate but that's the reality of the rules. And yes there is no gray area. team cannot share fabricated items outside of the original withholding allowance.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

It depends. If you bought the wheel/pulley combination, already assembled, from Wheels R Us, then it's a COTS item. If you bought the wheel from Wheels R Us, and the pulley from Pulleys R Us, then it's a FABRICATED ITEM (the definition of which includes "constructed", "manufactured", and "produced"). Like it or not, silly or not, that's what the rules say.

I'm going to say "no", with an evil grin. :D Since the bumper rules (somewhat) clearly define fasteners -- and say that "tie wraps" (which I'll translate to "zip tie") are not allowed to attach bumpers to the robot -- the whole thing isn't a FABRICATED ITEM. The plywood is, though -- you drilled holes.

Note that my tongue is firmly in my cheek on this, but wouldn't it be simpler to just put the parts in some kind of container? You may need the zip ties to make repairs on your ROBOT.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Glad you made the right call.

Everyone else,
Forgetting the Robot and Tournament rules for a moment, keep this in mind:

Judges, volunteers and other persons involved in every regional read these threads. Key staff are asked to keep an eye open for actions and behaviour to share with the judges. This is usually in reference to great things and acts of kindness by a team to help another.
Bringing the entire robot and keeping it within a mile so you can use parts off of it, or practice at the hotel falls into the other category of something a volunteer would report to judges. In deliberations, such a piece of information can act as the losing coin toss that will swing an award to a teams that merely brought their allowed withholding rather than their whole practice robot. Such an award could be one that would qualify a team to go to St. Louis.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Just adding my 2 cents to this, the way I would read the rule is that the 45 pounds you bring into the venue must not change.
Meaning that, a team brings 30 pounds of assembly 'X' on thursday into the venue, then on friday they bring 10 more pounds of assemblies 'Y', they have now used a total of 40 pounds of their withholding allowance.
On saturday they realized they need another 10 pound assembly 'Z', they can not bring this in as is, even if they remove assemblies X and Y from the venue.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I would interpret that Q&A to mean if your pre-2013 robot meets the definition of a robot in 2014, then it's subject to the 2014 robot rules. (Unlikely, and in all but the most unusual cases, inherently illegal due to parts usage rules.) If it meets the definition of a fabricated part, and you wish to be able to use any part of it in the 2014 competition, it must meet those rules as well (part of the static 45 lb). That's uncontroversial.

If it's just a prop for your presentation, it's exactly like any other thing you made to impress the judges. You don't have to count your scrapbook as part of the 45 lb, because you're not going to use it on the field or otherwise incorporate it into the 2014 robot. Same thing here.

(This is based on the principle that the Q&A can't create a situation that isn't supported by the rules. The robot rules, from which the 45 lb is derived, don't apply to props you fabricated, tools you made, food you prepared, etc..)

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You're absolutely right, that is what the rules say, I'm just illustrating some of the more frustrating bits of them.

Your expansion on the wheel and pulley example actually makes me think of another interesting COTS part case... We bought transmissions from a COTS vendor this year, as did many other teams. The transmissions came with all of the parts required to complete the transmission, including a pneumatic cylinder, motors, pinions, etc - but we were required to assemble the transmission.

Now, is the assembled transmission still considered a COTS item, since it was bought with all of these parts as a complete unit, although the vendor does not assemble the transmission? Does the assembly of the transmission make it a fabricated component?

I see what you did here... I guess I was trying to illustrate a different way to view the fabricated parts rules, but may have been stretching things a bit. The TLDR with this point is basically that if a practice robot is being used as a storage 'thing' for a series of COTS parts, is it any different than having them in a tote/box/etc? Not really, or at least I don't think so.... Thankfully, we keep our parts in boxes and bins, since they're significantly easier to move around... :D

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Dustin, here is your answer.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Q416.
Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.

A few years ago, in Atlanta, the Killer Bees (FIRST TEAM 33) plastered much of the Georgia Dome with little black and yellow bee antennae. These were clearly fabricated. Were they supposed to have weighed those and count them as part of their 30 lbs. of fabricated materials? How about signs? Mascot costumes?

The reply from the Q&A regarding bringing in a demo/old bot just to present to Chairman's is therefore illogical to me too. (And, as Chris and Andrew have stated, not really in the "spirit of FIRST".) Did they really think they couldn't trust the team to not cannibalize the demo bot for their competition bot? If that was their concern, why not just tell the team not to do so, i.e. that the demo bot can only be used for demonstration purposes, and nothing (not one bolt, not one zip tie)from that demo bot can end up on the playing field.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I've read this whole thread. What nobody has mentioned yet is that this whole thread is just more reinforcement for the idea that bagging is almost pointless and should just go away. Basically, to be both competitive and legal, you have to have a practice robot AND a separate set of spares. For many items this year, that's actually what we did. That gets expensive fast. We can't afford to sustain this kind of expense every year.

Do away with practice bots, either by specifically disallowing them or by ditching the bag. Problems solved. The build season hasn't truly been 6 weeks since over half a decade ago.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

We ought to have a thread to discuss the details of those two options (compared to the status quo). Putting together an effective rule to ban practice robots would be a challenging exercise in balancing a lot of competing interests. By the same token, if they eliminate the bag, should FIRST impose any limits on fabrication and modification past the end of the 6 weeks—and if so, how and why?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

At the risk of re-igniting a fire that was dying out, I have an observation. At GTR East, one team's robot was stuck in transit and didn't make it to the event. Another team graciously donated an entire kit-bot chassis. They and other teams donated enough parts to make a pretty good robot for the team with a missing bot.

Where did the generous team get that kit-bot chassis? was it brought into the venue in un-assembled form? Did they run back to the shop or trailer and pick it up? was it counted as part (most) of their 45 pound allowance? What about all the other items that were donated?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should be penalized for helping out, and I don't think any of whatever happened should be against the rules. I am just putting it out there as food for thought.

Flame on.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

In that kind of situation, I assume it would be a local team that had the kitbot chassis at their shop. I would also guess that they asked the LRI if they could do it, and they allowed it. One of the primary goals of inspectors is to make sure all teams get out on the field. If that's the case, the LRI (who has the final say in that situation) may have allowed it.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

So you are saying that the LRI has the authority to waive the rules? I didn't realize that. I thought the LRI was there to enforce the rules.

The LRI often (always?) has the hotline back to HQ and can consult with them on these issues. The LRI may also make judgment calls when a situation is not black and white. HQ and event officials can make exceptions to rules for exceptional cases... and they seem to do so only if in the pursuit of inspiration. The information provided in this case is incomplete so how can we judge?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

If a team comes up to them and says their robot didn't make it to the competition, and another team wants to help out in that manner, then the LRIs will do anything in their power to get them out on the field. Is it strict by the rules? No. Is it in the spirit of FIRST? Absolutely. That's why most people are willing to turn a blind eye in this situation.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I'd like to wrap up my part of this thread, being the OP and all that.

First, I had no idea that the presence of a practice bot in the vicinity of a regional was such a problem. I personally had/have no desire to take fabricated parts of that robot for use in competition. I also would not allow any member of my team to do so. My reason is that it's not fair to the other teams.

For instance, we had a functioning winch shaft on the practice bot, but I fabricated a new one for the real bot in the pits. Then it failed, so I had the NASA machine shop fabricate another using a used piece of shaft that we had brought into the pits with us as part of our 45 lbs. of "stuff". Thank you, NASA!

Also, if any other team lost a robot due to transportation issues, I'd be happy to supply our practice bot to them, whether or not they are playing against our team. That's what FIRST is about.

Have fun!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

From what I have heard another teams robot (not practice) who was not competing was offered. FIRST responded that even though extremely gracious it would not be allowed. I have no knowledge if kitbot was assembled.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

And Steve that would be team 2935 that would have allowed the team to use !

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

#cardboardFRCrobots
#woodFRCrobots

Which team is the one that makes wood robots every year? I can't seem find them

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Such a necro bump man...

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Yes, this was quite the hot issue in 2014.

In 2015, teams were required to bring their withholding allowance items into the pits during robot load-in. Going to the trailer or build site after load-in was not permitted. Robot inspectors would ask teams with a significant amount of fabricated items declared as "withhold allowance" to weigh them at the inspection station. A lot of teams fabricated new items using COTS parts and raw materials in the pits or sanctioned on-site machine shops - all completely within the rules.

I suspect the rules will be similar in 2016, as it removes the ambiguity of what items are declared as withholding allowance.

Read the robot rules carefully and plan ahead!!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I suspect, that if word gets back to the GDC about this hot topic, the rules might get tighter!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

This thread is the greatest clickbait thread I have ever seen.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Team 1899 makes wood robots every year, I don't know if this is the team that you're referring.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

4183 as well

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

(Emphasis mine)
Where was that, exactly? I've re-read the 2015 rules with specific emphasis on R12-R17 (Fabrication Schedule and Material Utilization),and T12 (during the event). Neither the word trailer nor the phrase build site appear anywhere in the game manual. I can't find any rules prohibiting access to a trailer or build site for the purposes of (for example) getting COTS parts, tools, non-robot items (such as costumes, buttons, and office supplies) , or excepted assemblies at the end of R17. The key rules regarding fabricated items at the tournament were:

Bottom line: During an event, you may not fabricate items for use on the robot except at the designated locations and times within the venue, nor bring fabricated items for use on the robot into the venue except at check-in, either in the robot bag or the withholding allowance.

An interesting subtlety I noticed on this search is that while "FABRICATED items consisting of one COTS electrical device (e.g. a motor or motor controller), connectors, and any materials used to secure and insulate those connectors" created before build season were permitted on the robot (or in the withholding) under R12, they were not exempt from being part of the withholding allowance under R17.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Originally Posted by David Brinza:
In 2015, teams were required to bring their withholding allowance items into the pits during robot load-in. Going to the trailer or build site after load-in was not permitted. Robot inspectors would ask teams with a significant amount of fabricated items declared as "withhold allowance" to weigh them at the inspection station.

Sorry for not being more specific in my comment about not going to the trailer after load-in. Teams were not allowed to bring in FABRICATED items from a trailer (or other off-site location) after load-in. Teams can retrieve COTS items, raw materials, driver's stations, tools, etc. from outside the pits (i.e. trailer) at any time during the competition.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

1771 made wood robot from 2009 through 2012. Here is post I made at that time about wood frames.