Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

That's what I was driving at but that's a conversation for a different thread. This one is intense enough.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

It was a scenario prior to inspection to go to the practice field and see what ratio worked best. It's contrived but well within the rules.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I never said that; I was talking about the parts taken off of a robot. There's nothing wrong with using left-overs from whatever raw materials you had from wherever or whenever. Those aren't fabricated items, but the part you cut off to use on a robot is. I'm pretty sure I remember a Q&A or rule somewhere that says it's OK to cut raw materials in order to be able to transport them, but that may have been some previous year. I sure hope that still applies.

That's an interesting one. By definition, your 24" piece from last year is a fabricated part. Cutting 9" off of it doesn't seem to be an issue (you're using the old stock as a raw material that happens to be 24" long, I think), if that 9" is unmodified (although I could be wrong). But if, for example, it has mounting holes drilled in the 9" section, then it is a fabricated part (by definition) and isn't allowed on this year's robot. The first sentence in the blue box under R13: Also see the Q&A; Q102.

OK. You're entitled to your opinion, of course; obviously I disagree. Show me the rule that says I'm wrong. And I'm sure if you think a bit you can find that you've seen more ridiculous things in FRC; I know I have. :)

I would hope that scrap pieces from somewhere besides a robot could be treated as raw materials, as long as the "scrap" isn't some kind of assembly used as a unit that isn't available as a COTS part for everyone else. Remember, I was specifically talking about parts taken off previous years' robots. I'm not sure that further modification from a fabrication makes something legal or not; sounds like a good Q&A. I think re-using mounting holes drilled last year might make it illegal. Likewise a shape (say you drilled new mounting holes in a cam you made last year) that was created in a previous year may not be legal.

The history of a part *can* have bearing on its legality as a robot part; see my citations above. And yes you do get an advantage. You don't have to spend the time to fabricate the part, and because you built it in a previous year you violate the build season schedule.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

The whole problem here is the idea of a duplicate robot for the purposes of spare parts. Having one on site means that you have access to potentially 120 lbs of spare parts. Even if you only bring in one piece from the "backup bot", you have access to any part of that robot. Just because it is in your trailer, truck, shop or whatever instead of inside the venue, you still have access to 120 lbs of fabricated items.

I don't think anyone is contesting stockpiles of COTS or items that can be re-purposed as "raw stock" (reuse is better than recycling!). Bring all of that stuff you want - as COTS or raw stock. I find no issue with hacking off some material from a robot carcass for use as long as what was used was in the form of raw material when you began working on it in the pit.

The issue is that by having a "backup bot", you have brought and have access to more than the withholding allowance of 45 lbs of FABRICATED parts - even if it isn't inside the venue.

If the withholding allowance is only specific to what is in the actual building, it is essentially meaningless. Build any amount of replacement/upgrade parts and then select which ones you need based on how the event plays out... That's not what I think is the intent of the allowance in the first place.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Mr. Schreiber:

1: "The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab."

How about closing the door(s) to your lab and not accessing the fabricated parts in there during the competition? You could just bring 45 pounds into your pit area on Thursday.

2: "This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair. "

Only if you use it. Again, put yourself in the shoes of any other team at the Northeastern Regional. More importantly, however -
It's not a problem to have your shop/lab/parts at the same institution as the competition. The distance from the field to your CNC machine is not the issue.

3: "FIRST isn't fair and neither is life."

Both true statements. But recognize that part of the attraction of sports in general is that there are rules to try to "level the playing field." If the goal of FIRST is to change a culture, and to make it a mass movement, it is in all of our interest to try to make the competitions as fair as we can, and to attract as many students as we can.

4: "I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules."
That's what the emoticon was for! No assertion made.
Good luck at your competitions!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I'm surprised this thread blew up so much. 2/2 for Bit Buckets controversy threads. :)

I find it interesting that the term "intent of the rule" is used so frequently in this thread. As none of us are on the GDC, I doubt any of us have a thorough understanding of what the "intent of the rule" is. My take on the rules is that we have a limited weight worth of withholding parts so that a team cannot show up to a competition with a completely brand new robot to replace the bagged one. I do not think the intent of the rule is to limit how many spare duplicate parts can be brought to an event, although the 2014 wording acts as a limiter on this. Again, not on the GDC, so I am simply posting an opinion.

Also, I'm still waiting for a team to build three robots, bag two, and develop the third as a practice robot at home. That should lead to some fun discussion!

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

There have been other threads on this topic. I like this one in particular.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

The only unclear thing I see in this is the word 'static'. It could mean
A. You can't exchange parts throughout the event
B. You must decide what you will bring before you start the event

If the intention is A, then a practice robot in the parking lot is fine, and you can replace stuff as it breaks, as long as you don't rip more than 45 lbs of manufactured parts off it. As far as I'm concerned, if its COTS, then you can take whatever you like.

If the intention is B, a practice robot in the parking lot that you take stuff off as it breaks would be illegal unless perhaps you kept a list of what you could take off your practice robot,. Again, COTS doesn't count and you can go to your practice bot(or anywhere, for that matter) and rip as much COTS off as you like.

For the shop being in the venue or 5000 miles away, this seems entirely irrelevant. You can use a static(defined either in A or B) 45lb set of fabricated materials. I think its entirely fine even to go into your shop. Your chairman's presenters can practice, or you can work on or view CAD, or you can even fabricate stuff to bring in as witholding to your next event. In addition, you can grab as much COTS stuff as you like. You CANNOT manufacture items that you put on the competition robot at the competition its currently at.

As for the giving manufactured parts to other teams thing. We'll use the example of blockers, if the blocker were created at the event or bagged with a robot, you can do anything you want with it, (providing it passes inspection, modular parts, etc). If the blocker was brought in with witholding, I see it okay if the team that brought the blocker gives it to someone on their alliance, and then the team gives it back to the team who built it after their match. The team who built it can then redistribute it to someone on their alliance in a new match. I see this as okay as the team that gains the most from it is the team that used it as part of their witholding.

*I'm not trying to find manual passages that back me up, I'm just trying to look at the spirit of the rule

** Can someone do a QA for
"If I bring a practice robot to an event and leave it in a trailer, removing parts from it as they break on my competition robot, but I never remove more than 45lbs, would I be violating 'static' in R18?"

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Sorry, but my team can only afford so many Talons, and half of them are on our practice bot. Practice bot comes with, us, but it also doesn't actually have anything other than COTS parts for us to harvest this year.

You're free to your opinion and I'm free to mine, and until I hear from a definitive (and authoritative) source, such as Q&A, I'll play by our interpretation of the intent of the rules.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I'll do it. Forgive me, but I haven't ever posted a Q. I'm registered. How do I do it?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

You have to be logged in using your team's account. (See TIMS for that.)

Then you have to search for a similar question.

Then you get the "submit a question" button. Click, and you get 300 characters, or something like that. I suggest doing a followup question off of Q416, asking if using an old or practice robot that weighed more than 45 lbs and was kept outside the arena as a parts supply would be legal, provided that less than 45 lbs were brought in total. It's a similar situation.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

I don't get it. Are your Talons fabricated parts? Do you have more than 45 lb of them? (So many, indeed.)

Why would that justify bringing your whole practice bot, rather than just 45 lb of fabricated parts? (Or does your practice bot weigh less than 45 lb?)

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

Keep in mind that an outsider to FIRST just reading the manual would almost certainly consider using the 45lb withholding allowance to overhaul the robot on Thursday as against the "spirit" of the stop build rules. You're supposed to build a robot in 6 weeks, why should you be able to keep working on a large part of your robot far past ship date?

If you look at the rule in question, it appears like you're allowed to bring 45lbs of fabricated parts in to the event, and can't change what counts as that 45lbs as the event goes on. Does it really matter where those parts came from?

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

If they are versa planetaries for example they are only COTS items if they aren't assembled. If they had previously been assembled you can return them to being COTS parts by disassembling them to the state they are in when purchased. This applies to all items that are purchased un-assembled which applies to many transmissions.

Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?
 

That has nothing to do with them counting towards the weight of your robot. If they are intended as interchangeable parts (a concept which is not fully defined in the rules), they all count.