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-   -   2014 Greater Toronto East Regional (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127556)

Tom Line 08-03-2014 21:43

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim (Post 1355560)
Yes, our human player once took a 50 point penalty catching a poorly thrown ball from the Field Reset Crew. His hand extended for a short period past the yellow tape.

We've had our intake out to pick up a ball, and been slammed into from the side, and had the intake swipe an opponent's robot inside the frame perimeter as a result. Again a 50 pt penalty.

I'm being 100% honest in saying that both the situations above are very different than what happened in SF1-2. 4718 had the entire half of the field themselves when the opposing ball landed. No other robots pushed them or forced them to go towards the ball. The ball landed feet away from them, and they chose to drive towards it. I've told my drive crew not to play defense on the opposing ball, only the opposing robots - that's how the rules are written due to these tech fouls. We asked the Q&A quoted earlier in this thread to clarify too. "Accidentally" catching a ball was a risk just not worth taking.

I find it hard to say that 4718 was forced into taking this penalty.

My opinion is that they made a mistake driving towards the ball, that ended up being a very costly one.

10/10 times my strategy guys would've said the better move would've been to drive towards the robot expected to pick up the ball and score it, to seal them off from the ball.

I agree there are some "forced" penalties in this game that I have seen, that are less than fair...

...but this is NOT one of them.

I agree completely with your statement. I disagree with the idea that you can play clean in this game. No matter how smart you pay there is a good chance the rules are going to bite you in the butt. That's bad.

Yipyapper 08-03-2014 21:52

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1355571)
I agree completely with your statement. I disagree with the idea that you can play clean in this game. No matter how smart you pay there is a good chance the rules are going to bite you in the butt. That's bad.

I disagree. I know of at least 781 and 1114 that did not once get a single foul in any match despite having rough gameplay, and I'm certain many others didn't at GTRE but I hesitate to name them because I'm not 100% sure which didn't.

mman1506 08-03-2014 21:57

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1355571)
I agree completely with your statement. I disagree with the idea that you can play clean in this game. No matter how smart you pay there is a good chance the rules are going to bite you in the butt. That's bad.

We played HEAVY defense a GTR West with only a single blockading foul that was 100% our driver's fault. There was also only 3 fouls committed by teams on our alliance and they were all because of driver error. Our coach and drivers spent a lot of time training to avoid possible fouls.

sailer99 08-03-2014 22:01

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1355571)
I agree completely with your statement. I disagree with the idea that you can play clean in this game. No matter how smart you pay there is a good chance the rules are going to bite you in the butt. That's bad.

This comment bugs me. Our alliance spent a lot of time on strategy for each match and we built strategies that would avoid penalties. We made sure drive teams knew what to avoid and that human players were paying attention. Avoiding penalties in this game is similar to penalties in a close hockey game, when you are rushed and stressed to get points you have to take risks that may result in penalties. If you are comfortable in the lead you can take less risks and avoid penalties. I believe our alliance didn't get a signal foul throughout eliminations.

edit- For those wanting to watch the penalties in SF1-2 you can see it here http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives/88533519 (possession call around 1:30, pin call slightly after)

Duncan Macdonald 08-03-2014 23:16

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailer99 (Post 1355593)
This comment bugs me. Our alliance spent a lot of time on strategy for each match and we built strategies that would avoid penalties. We made sure drive teams knew what to avoid and that human players were paying attention. Avoiding penalties in this game is similar to penalties in a close hockey game, when you are rushed and stressed to get points you have to take risks that may result in penalties. If you are comfortable in the lead you can take less risks and avoid penalties. I believe our alliance didn't get a signal foul throughout eliminations.

edit- For those wanting to watch the penalties in SF1-2 you can see it here http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives/88533519 (possession call around 1:30, pin call slightly after)

Please take the above comments as general commentary on the game, and that you can be penalized without intention or benefiting from the penalized act. SF1-1 strategically was a perfectly executed match and you earned the blue banner fairly. Your alliance had the right robots, planning and good fortune to win it all. How many second year teams have captained a winning alliance from the 5th spot?!

SF1-1

PriyankP 08-03-2014 23:59

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
GTR Regionals are VERY competitive and it has almost become a tradition to end it with some sort of controversy. :/

Don't worry though, as Leafs fans have taught us well, there's always the next season! ;)

NWChen 09-03-2014 11:02

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Controversy aside - Team 2601 would like to thank teams 2994 ASTECHZ and 3173 IgKNIGHTers for their generosity and help. They didn't win the GP award but certainly showed it.

Also thanks to Karthik for speaking at our team meeting :D

Karthik 09-03-2014 11:13

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PriyankP (Post 1355657)
GTR Regionals are VERY competitive and it has almost become a tradition to end it with some sort of controversy. :/

I don't see any controversy here. Teams 4476, 1285, and 2198 won the regional fair and square. They had the three things that every winning alliance needs in FIRST; they played smart, they executed a well defined plan, and they had some good fortune. I commend and congratulate them on their well deserved victory; taking down both the #1 and #2 alliances at an event is a larger feat than most people realize.

Cullenwelch88 09-03-2014 11:16

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Hello,

Does anyone know where I can find the recording of the regional? watchfirstnow doesn't seem to be working. Maybe its just me?

Thanks

Cullen

BrennanB 09-03-2014 11:23

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Talk about an awesome event that exceeded all expectations. Thanks to our alliance partners 1285 and 2198. 2198 had an all rookie drive team, so what a great experience for them! Hope you guys had a blast. 1285 wow! It can be hard to be the "other" 1241 team, but you guys are just as impressive as 1241. Awesome work with helping out with the strategy throughout the eliminations, we certainly couldn't have done it without you.

1114, and 3683, and 4718, you guys had a phenomenal alliance. 1114 has a sweet robot, I expect them to come back swinging harder than ever in Waterloo in two weeks. I have been a 3683 fan ever since their elegant 2012 design that worked every time. You guys are long overdue for a championship appearance. Watch out for them in Waterloo too! 4718 our alliance partners from last year, it's awesome to see you guys doing really well. You guys were close to taking the semifinals to what would have been a phenomenal third match, good luck next year!

3710, 1241, and 3173, so cool to have two Kingston teams, and two Rick Hansen teams in the finals. It speaks to the success of the programs in those areas. Thuvishan way to go on the WFFA award! Also 3173, solid defense with a solid drive train. Good luck at FLR, you guys have one of the most ridiculous shooters I have ever seen. Talk about a powerful shot!

Karthik 09-03-2014 11:37

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrennanB (Post 1355804)
Talk about an awesome event that exceeded all expectations. Thanks to our alliance partners 1285 and 2198. 2198 had an all rookie drive team, so what a great experience for them! Hope you guys had a blast. 1285 wow! It can be hard to be the "other" 1241 team, but you guys are just as impressive as 1241. Awesome work with helping out with the strategy throughout the eliminations, we certainly couldn't have done it without you.

1114, and 3683, and 4718, you guys had a phenomenal alliance. 1114 has a sweet robot, I expect them to come back swinging harder than ever in Waterloo in two weeks. I have been a 3683 fan ever since their elegant 2012 design that worked every time. You guys are long overdue for a championship appearance. Watch out for them in Waterloo too! 4718 our alliance partners from last year, it's awesome to see you guys doing really well. You guys were close to taking the semifinals to what would have been a phenomenal third match, good luck next year!

3710, 1241, and 3173, so cool to have two Kingston teams, and two Rick Hansen teams in the finals. It speaks to the success of the programs in those areas. Thuvishan way to go on the WFFA award! Also 3173, solid defense with a solid drive train. Good luck at FLR, you guys have one of the most ridiculous shooters I have ever seen. Talk about a powerful shot!

Brennan,

I think the biggest congratulation this weekend needs to go out to you. Not only for your team's success, but also for your well deserved Dean's List Finalist Award. You're a shining example of why FIRST made the right decision to allow seniors to be nominated this season.

Bochek 09-03-2014 12:39

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cullenwelch88 (Post 1355800)
Hello,

Does anyone know where I can find the recording of the regional? watchfirstnow doesn't seem to be working. Maybe its just me?

Thanks

Cullen


Cullen, If you go to http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives and search by event, Enter event code ONTO and you will find all of the matches!

iVanDuzer 09-03-2014 14:47

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
This is a regional that the Cyberfalcons will not forget for a very long time. I can list off a million people and teams I could thank for making GTRE so amazing, but I need to thank some in particular:

The refs and technical staff: I've never encountered a crew more accommodating. Thank you for listening and addressing our concerns about missed assist points. It's truly appreciated.

Our alliance partners: 1241, it was an honour to work with you. You have a fantastic robot and great game sense. You guys drive your robot like you stole it, and it's amazing to see. Hopefully we can work together to bring home a blue banner in the near future!

To 3173, wow. For those who don't know, they had an amazingly beautiful arm that had quite a punch, but we were looking for a robot we could throw a ramp on for easy assists. There aren't too many teams that would be willing, much less enthusiastic, to dismantle a big chunk of their robot to suit another team's strategy, but you were. What can I say? True team players, and shining exemplars of what FIRST is all about.

To the regional winners, 4476, 1285, and 2198: Congratulations! As much as we wished we were 100% for both finals matches, I'm not sure it would have made a difference! You guys had a great strategy and executed it to a T. To the WAFFLES, if we had to lose, we were glad it was to our Ktown buddies. Also, congratulations Brennan for your Dean's List Finalist Award. See you at North Bay!

billylo 09-03-2014 15:43

This game is very exciting. To our friends south of the border, look out. We have a lot of strength beyond the perennial powerhouses of 1114/2056. The theory6 twins, 1310/610/188 and many others are fast improving. Waterloo, north bay and windsor will be awesome.

jmaxwell 09-03-2014 18:16

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Thank you to everyone who worked to host this excellent regional. What an honor it was to play the game with two great teams...1241 and 1370!

Congratulations to 4476, 1285 and 2198 for putting together the winning alliance and executing a great strategy.

Coming to Canada was great. Everyone of the teams we met were so accommodating and friendly. It was a great experience; we loved every minute.

Yipyapper 09-03-2014 19:43

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
What took 2013 so long to get picked (well, they weren't picked, they were 7th alliance captains)? They boasted an incredible robot, and I believe they were 3rd on our pick list right below Dave and Simbotics.

Duncan Macdonald 09-03-2014 20:04

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yipyapper (Post 1356043)
What took 2013 so long to get picked (well, they weren't picked, they were 7th alliance captains)? They boasted an incredible robot, and I believe they were 3rd on our pick list right below Dave and Simbotics.

Different robots have different values to different teams based on compatibility. A great finisher wants robots with great truss and passing ability for example. That and some teams don't scout or scout well.

fox46 09-03-2014 21:17

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
We were almost sure someone would pick us up but alas it didn't go that way and were happy we had put together a picklist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald (Post 1356058)
Different robots have different values to different teams based on compatibility. A great finisher wants robots with great truss and passing ability for example. That and some teams don't scout or scout well.

I would love to hear some feedback as to what our machine's weaknesses were or why we weren't a desirable pick so that the team can improve.

The discussion for us on Facebook today has been what to change for North Bay but the team is at a loss as to what needs improving. Aside from a few mechanical improvements aimed at mitigating wear and adding an extra 25lbs to our bumpers and chassis so that we can maximize our drivetrain's pushing abilities combined with driver practice, we haven't had many ideas. To my knowledge we never incurred any penalties ourselves.

We lost a couple matches partly due to mechanical failures caused by 1) bearing failure in reloader drive initiated by someone forgetting to install lock collar during assembly, 2) disconnected battery due to lack of tie-wrapping connector, 3) faulty connector on loaned battery lost connection during gameplay. All have been addressed so hopefully we can do better next time.

Some luck and/or more vigilant referees are my only requests. Or that the GDC lowers the penalty values.

Yipyapper 09-03-2014 21:31

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fox46 (Post 1356105)
We were almost sure someone would pick us up but alas it didn't go that way and were happy we had put together a picklist.



I would love to hear some feedback as to what our machine's weaknesses were or why we weren't a desirable pick so that the team can improve.

The discussion for us on Facebook today has been what to change for North Bay but the team is at a loss as to what needs improving. Aside from a few mechanical improvements aimed at mitigating wear and adding an extra 25lbs to our bumpers and chassis so that we can maximize our drivetrain's pushing abilities combined with driver practice, we haven't had many ideas. To my knowledge we never incurred any penalties ourselves.

We lost a couple matches partly due to mechanical failures caused by 1) bearing failure in reloader drive initiated by someone forgetting to install lock collar during assembly, 2) disconnected battery due to lack of tie-wrapping connector, 3) faulty connector on loaned battery lost connection during gameplay. All have been addressed so hopefully we can do better next time.

Some luck and/or more vigilant referees are my only requests. Or that the GDC lowers the penalty values.

I'm not sure if you got your two-ball auto working or not, but if you did, I can't think of anything either. Everything about the robot was very strong and, really, I'd put it in any position--defense, truss, scoring, it can do it all really well.

I'd also try and make a hot autonomous instead if you have the two-ball auto working, since I don't think I remember anything with hot going on on the practice field. Anything to improve, I guess.

fox46 09-03-2014 21:51

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

I'm not sure if you got your two-ball auto working or not
It's dialed in and working now. It seems the only thing that changes are the variability of the balls. A slightly harder ball (and the field balls were HARD) transfers energy so much better that they hit high. The plan to increase the accuracy, so far, is to increase the power level of the shooter and adjust the release point to take as much parabola out of the shot as possible. All of GTRE we were running the lightest of four settings for the springs on or shooter so we are going to try cranking them up to turn it into a line-drive as much as possible. We're just worried about the affects it will have on the driver's teleop aiming/shooting and the ability of the field staff to retrieve scored balls.

The team has provisions for a camera and code working which detects the hot goal but we are very weak in the programming department and haven't been able to successfully integrate it with our autonomous routine. If anyone is interested in helping us try and get it integrated in North Bay, we're always looking for help! We owe Jeff from the Igknightors 3173 huge for helping us rewrite our reloading algorithm to eliminate errors caused by jostled limit switches.

billylo 09-03-2014 22:21

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fox46 (Post 1356125)
If anyone is interested in helping us try and get it integrated in North Bay, we're always looking for help! We owe Jeff from the Igknightors 3173 huge for helping us rewrite our reloading algorithm to eliminate errors caused by jostled limit switches.

Feel free to PM me. 610 has some sample code that you may be able to re-use. See you in North Bay!

Jash_J 09-03-2014 22:25

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
The Greater Toronto East Regional was nothing short of excellence. With the help of some awesome volunteers, staff and planners, this was an event that was run flawlessly.

We were very happy to be in an alliance with the number two seed captain 3710 and 3173. The moment we saw this alliance form we knew it was going to be a good one. 3710's robot was solid all competition long and was more than what we could have hoped for in a partner. 3173, the team who traveled up all the way from Rochester, thank you for coming down to Canada! You guys were extremely cooperative alliance partners and it was really easy to work with your team. We truly couldn't have made it as far as we did without either of you!

To the regional champions 4476, 1285 and 2198, congrats! You guys had a phenomenal strategy right from the beginning. It was cool to see our close friends the W.A.F.F.L.E.S take home the banner with our "sister" team The Big Bang. You guys got a stellar 2nd pick, 2198, which just goes to show what good scouting can do, especially in a game filled with assists.

To the Chairman's award winners, 781! You guys truly deserved that award with everything you have done. Your video was beautifully laid out, it was one of the most creative videos that I had ever seen. You guys defended your Chairman's title at GTRE successfully, now show the world what you guys are made of in St. Louis!

I also wanted to congratulate both Deans List winners, Brennan Bibic and Darby Watterworth for a very well deserved recognition! I haven't had the opportunity to personally meet Darby, but I did get a chance to talk to her teammates and they had nothing but amazing things to say about you! Brennan, you deserved every bit of that award as Karthik mentioned above. You have been doing so much on and off the field since you got involved, you and your family are an inspiration to us all!

Congratulations to Honson Lam on the Volunteer of the Year Award, you have been helping out FIRST for numerous years now and you have taken on a multitude of positions. I was incredibly happy to hear your name called out as the Volunteer of the Year.

The referees did a fantastic job at this tournament. Referees usually don't get much credit, and this year's game in specific doesn't help with that. Referees have the tough jobs of ensuring that all the game rules are enforced. I understand that referees aren't perfect, but you guys did a really good job of making sure all the calls were accounted for. Big props goes out to the Head Referee Pranit Trivedi, for ensuring all the referees were on the same page, you did a stellar job man!

And to teams 1114 and 3683, both of which have amazing robots, we look forward to competing with and against you in two weeks at Waterloo!

Finally, Thuvishan Rajagulasingam, its a mouth full. But congratulations bud on your WFFA, you were more than deserving of that piece of special hardware. You not only helped form this team into the image we have today but you have helped sustain it. You are an amazing friend, mentor and leader, keep doing what you're doing. I guess big things do really come in little packages.

Jack_poldon 10-03-2014 22:14

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fox46 (Post 1356105)
We were almost sure someone would pick us up but alas it didn't go that way and were happy we had put together a picklist.



I would love to hear some feedback as to what our machine's weaknesses were or why we weren't a desirable pick so that the team can improve.

The discussion for us on Facebook today has been what to change for North Bay but the team is at a loss as to what needs improving. Aside from a few mechanical improvements aimed at mitigating wear and adding an extra 25lbs to our bumpers and chassis so that we can maximize our drivetrain's pushing abilities combined with driver practice, we haven't had many ideas. To my knowledge we never incurred any penalties ourselves.

We lost a couple matches partly due to mechanical failures caused by 1) bearing failure in reloader drive initiated by someone forgetting to install lock collar during assembly, 2) disconnected battery due to lack of tie-wrapping connector, 3) faulty connector on loaned battery lost connection during gameplay. All have been addressed so hopefully we can do better next time.

Some luck and/or more vigilant referees are my only requests. Or that the GDC lowers the penalty values.

First of all, I really liked your team's bot ever since your release video on FRC Top 25 and I was surprised by some of the picks in alliance selection. Very solid design and great manufacturing.

I can't speak to what the other alliances were looking for, but our alliance was looking for a robot to play the second robot in a three pass cycle and that could also truss down field. Your team would obviously fill that role but we felt that the truss shot was harder to track down and passing was slightly less efficient than a couple other bots. There were very small differences between your bot and bot we eventually picked in 1285 (honestly, if 1285 was picked up before we had a chance to pick, your team was our next option).

From what I saw in alliance selection was that the alliances above ours were choosing alliances based on very specific strategies (like 1114 with the truss to the human player and 1503 with the catching strategy).

When I first saw the game release, I started to think that very strategic picks will be made for eliminations, more so than in past years and that great robots won't be paired up with necessarily be on the top alliances.

I think to improve, your team needs to show a strategy more centered around passing and the 3 pass cycle. If your team does that and continues to work on your autonomous mode, you are a sure shot for the top alliances in alliance selection. Also, maneuverability of the drive might be comprised if you add additional weight to your bumpers. Just something to think about.

Lastly, 2013 has deserved to have qualified for Champs in the past few years. Keep chugging along and good things will happen. I really hope this year is the year that you guys make it to Champs. See you in North Bay (hopefully champs too) and good luck in Calgary.

Yipyapper 10-03-2014 22:35

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_poldon (Post 1356993)
Lastly, 2013 has deserved to have qualified for Champs in the past few years. Keep chugging along and good things will happen. I really hope this year is the year that you guys make it to Champs. See you in North Bay (hopefully champs too) and good luck in Calgary.

I want this so bad. Them and Dave really deserve a shot at champs, and I know I at the very least will be paying close attention to North Bay to see if 2013 makes it. I have a great time talking to them every year, and the guy that did alliance selections at GTRE sounds like one of the most friendly and funny guys you can have on a drive team.

Cybergnomes have such a brilliant robot, though, so I don't think they'll have too hard of a time making champs if they can come up with some sound strategies at North Bay.

Jack_poldon 10-03-2014 22:44

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yipyapper (Post 1357004)
I want this so bad. Them and Dave really deserve a shot at champs, and I know I at the very least will be paying close attention to North Bay to see if 2013 makes it.

Couldn't agree more with you. Both teams have have great robots the last few years and are all around great teams. If they don't qualify through an award or by winning a regional, I really hope the wild card comes into play.

Teams like 2013 and 3683 are they reason why the wild card was introduced.

Duncan Macdonald 10-03-2014 23:12

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_poldon (Post 1356993)
I think to improve, your team needs to show a strategy more centered around passing and the 3 pass cycle.

I sent them the opposite advice by PM :ahh:. I agree that a 3 pass cycle is a valid strategy, but only when you have the robots. Watch some of their matches, they are a very cooperative team and don't complete many qualification cycles because they are waiting for weaker partner to get possession. I advised them to focus on 2 assist cycles with a truss, fewer assists per cycle in exchange for more cycles.

Jack_poldon 11-03-2014 00:13

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald (Post 1357054)
I sent them the opposite advice by PM :ahh:. I agree that a 3 pass cycle is a valid strategy, but only when you have the robots. Watch some of their matches, they are a very cooperative team and don't complete many qualification cycles because they are waiting for weaker partner to get possession. I advised them to focus on 2 assist cycles with a truss, fewer assists per cycle in exchange for more cycles.

You bring up a good point. I was speaking more to eliminations where the 3 pass seems to be used as an effective strategy (depending on your alliance).

Additionally, by practicing the 2 pass and truss strategy, you are essentially practicing different elements to a number of other viable strategies (trussing, passing and shooting). I think everyone can agree that the 2013 bot is well suited for this years game and with continued practice and hard work they are bound for success.

beardie88 11-03-2014 01:32

Re: 2014 Greater Toronto East Regional
 
GTR East sure was an exciting event. Congrats to teams 1285, 2198, and 4476 they really showed how important strategy is this year. It was great to work with team 4476 and 1114 in quals match 4. 420 is a very high score so early in competition even with fouls. I think all three of these robots were operating better on day 3 and had that match happened later the score could have been even higher. Team 781 had an amazing chairmans video, they really defended their title. It was great to compete with and against so many great teams. We'll be ready to compete in waterloo during week 4.


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