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-   -   Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127633)

Anupam Goli 09-03-2014 14:13

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
There are actions that deserve a tech foul at a full 50 points, like intentionally tipping a team. There are actions that only deserve a 20 pt. foul. Then there are things that could incidentally happen that are getting tech fouls, like accidentally having an opponent ball in your possession, having a finger outside the yellow line, and damaging contact initiated by the team playing defense. Perhaps we should look into adding a third type of foul. The tech foul can be lowered to 30 pts in value, and we can have a "flagrant foul" be worth the full 50 pts.

mwtidd 09-03-2014 14:14

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sircedric4 (Post 1355843)
And based on what I was seeing at the Arkansas was exactly opposite. This is a personal amecdote just like your anecdote. The problem is that there is too much for the refs to do in order to have a consistent experience across all the venues. The fouls are too subjective and too penalizing. My experience with Aerial Assist, this is not a game of highest scoring alliance winning but who the referees allow to win.

I am happy you had good refs, I was not happy with ours. A change in the game rules is necessary to eliminate as much of the human subjectivity as possible. First should strive for consistent game experiences and that requires doing something with referee calls swinging games.

I'm curious, how may refs did you have at your event? We had 6 + 1 head ref.

wlaroche 09-03-2014 14:18

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
They increased the referees to 5 on the field and one to rotate in and out. It helped quite a bit. This does not count the head ref, they would be the sixth set of eyes.

joelg236 09-03-2014 15:08

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Yes. As a human player, I'm much more worried about foul points than I am enjoying the match, making smart decisions or having fun.

Tech fouls are almost equivalent to a DQ for the match (for most teams that aren't powerhouses).

orangemoore 09-03-2014 15:16

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joelg236 (Post 1355880)
Yes. As a human player, I'm much more worried about foul points than I am enjoying the match, making smart decisions or having fun.

Tech fouls are almost equivalent to a DQ for the match (for most teams that aren't powerhouses).

Isn't that the point? Making sure you are paying attention to what you are doing?
It may be excessive, but what you are saying to me is what the fouls are for. If you were not paying attention you could possibly get hurt.

joelg236 09-03-2014 15:21

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by orangemoore (Post 1355883)
Isn't that the point? Making sure you are paying attention to what you are doing?
It may be excessive, but what you are saying to me is what the fouls are for. If you were not paying attention you could possibly get hurt.

I feel like not having the safety zone (what was originally intended) is sufficient, and has absolutely no effect on safety. There's no way anyone would get hurt if there was a clear line neither human nor robot could cross. And even if they could, the buffer zone could just be right at the field barrier.

Karthik 09-03-2014 15:23

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by orangemoore (Post 1355883)
Isn't that the point? Making sure you are paying attention to what you are doing?
It may be excessive, but what you are saying to me is what the fouls are for. If you were not paying attention you could possibly get hurt.

I understand your point, but I feel like if FIRST was fully concerned about safety, they wouldn't have allowed teams to intentionally rifle balls out of the field of play to their Human Players as part of normal game strategy. I'm surprised we haven't seen anyone field side get hurt from one of these shots.

Lil' Lavery 09-03-2014 15:24

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1355802)

Does an offsides increase the risk of concussions?

cgmv123 09-03-2014 15:27

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1355887)
Does an offsides increase the risk of concussions?

Yes, since the down is replayed (unless the offense declines, which isn't an option in FIRST), an offisides creates an extra play, which is an additional potential for concussion.

Bob Steele 09-03-2014 15:36

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
You guys are confusing offsides with false start...
false start stops the play...so no EXTRA PLAY
offsides the play continues so yes you have an EXTRA PLAY

But in the end the foul does not add time to the game so the amount of time played is the same therefore the game does not have more time for possibly life-changing injuries and concussions and such ...

sorry ...

Daniel_LaFleur 09-03-2014 15:39

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1355891)
Yes, since the down is replayed (unless the offense declines, which isn't an option in FIRST), an offisides creates an extra play, which is an additional potential for concussion.

Ummm ... no it does not.

The clock still ran and time was taken off. The only time it adds a play is at the end of a half or end of the game if it was the defense causing a penalty.

Karthik 09-03-2014 15:44

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1355887)
Does an offsides increase the risk of concussions?

Yes, absolutely. An offside is the result of a player getting a head start on the play, lowering the ability to react of the opposing team. This is precisely why the play is blown dead in cases where the defender is "unabated to the quarterback."

Daniel_LaFleur 09-03-2014 15:54

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1355898)
Yes, absolutely. An offside is the result of a player getting a head start on the play, lowering the ability to react of the opposing team. This is precisely why the play is blown dead in cases where the defender is "unabated to the quarterback."

Offsides does not cause the concussion ... thus it is a minor penalty -- 5 yards.

A blow to the head is a personal foul because of that exact safety issue ... thus a major penalty --- 15 yards.


This is exactly what FIRST is trying to do with its penalty system.


and while I agree that 50 points is a "match killer", it basically is FIRST saying "don't do this".

JM(NS)HO

Karthik 09-03-2014 15:59

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1355905)
Offsides does not cause the concussion ... thus it is a minor penalty -- 5 yards.

A blow to the head is a personal foul because of that exact safety issue ... thus a major penalty --- 15 yards.


This is exactly what FIRST is trying to do with its penalty system.


and while I agree that 50 points is a "match killer", it basically is FIRST saying "don't do this".

JM(NS)HO

Agreed, however a 15 yard penalty in football is mere pittance compared to the "match killer" 50 point penalty in Aerial Assist.

inquiryteacher 09-03-2014 16:22

Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better
 
Definitely Yes.

In the regional we just competed in the number of fouls was ridiculous and decided the outcome of many of the matches. Students from many teams where disgusted, disheartened, and discouraged. They were not really judged for their design or performance excellence, but more often for incidental or inconsequential fouls.

This year was a cleverly designed contest as it allowed for the inclusion of even the most inexperienced teams in game play. Teams without the skills or resources to build complicated apparatus are able to compete and even complete important scores to quickly complete cycles. But the amount and severity of the fouls is significantly disproportionate. Some of the fouls are very difficult to call an some are quite subjective. Adult delays after scoring (relighting the pedestal) caused more the one speedy youngster and alliance team to suffer. Incidentally, the students got to enjoy double jeopardy (two fouls - one offense) as the balls were almost immediately back in play giving them little time to realize their mistake and sealing the fate of the match.

The same teams who were cleverly included this year are also the most at risk. The simple apparatus necessary to compete often lack the sophistication to quickly be moved out of harms way. Asking for students to design a bot with allowances for a 20 inch overhang, and then repeatedly dinging them for contact within the perimeter of another bot is a design flaw in the contest. This type of contact should have been expected without the addition of any safe zones and bots should be designed sturdily, to withstand the rigors of the contest.

While there naturally should be some sort of penalty associated, We will likely see teams exploiting this flaw to gain foul points as the weeks go by, as I believe I have already witnessed a few times. It will decide contests and it is simply to easy for them not to.

This contest design flaw will likely influence design and creativity next year, as students will be asked to design around not fouling, instead of letting their more ingenious designs come to light. Interestingly enough, our team was chosen as an alliance partner in the finals, not due to our stellar performance in the regional, but simply because with a few modifications, it made it almost impossible to foul.


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