Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

This is wee picking strategy comes into play huge, possible picking the lowest ranked team out of them and hoping they decline so that the higher ranked team can't pick them splitting up the best,

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but I want your opinion on a match played at waterloo at the end of the day (here) In your opinion, should the match have been replayed because of the cameraman hitting our ball at the 2:00 point in the video? When he hit it, the ball went back to our end of the field, costing us a cycle. If he had not hit it back in, our human player would have given it to us in the opponents end. Thanks in advance for your input.

For some reason, the video says the match was in virgina, but it was actually in waterloo. - FIXED. thanks Bochek

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I don't know if there are grounds for a replay in the rules based on 'accidental outside interference'.

However, I think the question you have to ask yourself is 'could we have gained an additional 16+pts'? It's a small margin, but it's still either an assist or another truss catch (in addition to scoring the high goal).

Based off the rest of the video, I don't believe, even with the additional time (which would be at best 7 seconds, based on realistic time to gather and human load the ball), there was enough time for another truss throw (and it didn't seem as if an alliance partner was ready to assist).

For reference, there was 15 seconds between the end of your first cycle and when your team possessed the ball, and more than 30 seconds (with the outside interference) the next cycle.

Plus the cameraman was clearly just trying to help.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Well they call me "Dirty Mike" for a reason...

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Fixed that. Sorry 'bout that.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I'm thinking the #6, #7 or #8 alliance could have a really good combination. They'll have enough robots available to get specialists at each position (inbound, truss, goal), and might be able to disrupt the strong alliances they'll be facing early, since those robots will have a much weaker #3.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

4039's drive coach is a 2056 alumni and was operator in 2011. I'm really excited to see how Makeshift does tomorrow.

Get'cha popcorn ready...

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

With 4039 playing quick turn matches in Q59 and Q61, and then 2056 against 1114 in Q64 -- well, this is going to be a fun morning in Waterloo. Wish I was there.

Hope the webcast is working well -- it was great yesterday. :)

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Have they started yet?

The webcast isn't working...

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Webcast is working OK for me for the last half hour or so. (EDIT: But the FMS is still not posting results to the web in real-time. FRCSpy/Twitter seem to be working)

They're just about to replay Q59 for a cycle end issue. Of the 5 replays @ Waterloo, 4039 has been in 4 of them.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Echos ... echos .... echos.

And no FMS updates today. Nothing on FIRST site, nothing on Spyder.

And the webcast is down again, drat.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Congrats to 4039, #1 seed at the 2014 Waterloo Regional.

Cast has been flawless for me all morning, but this whole FMS not uploading thing is getting old.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Nothing on FIRST site ==> nothing on Spyder. It's unfortunate that we have to rely on an unreliable data source. Every time we get an email from a user about Spyder not working, it ends up that FIRST isn't publishing properly for that event.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Ditto on all three fronts.

Hopefully someone posts the rankings (I think 254 are now second seed as it stands, 2056 3rd?)

Some great triple assists and clinical HG from 4039 today. Alliance selections will be fascinating.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Yes, but that doesn't show the rankings, which is the biggest part the people at home want to see.

Match results are available on twitter, too.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

1114 vs 2056 now! predict 2056 wins.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Wow.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

1114 lacks very little on their drive team already, and their HP takes them to a new level!

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Well 1114 schooled 2056 in that match. looking for a similar matchup in elims if 4039 gets either with first pick.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I'm not sure there's much consequence of 2056 or 1114 finishing 3rd.

As far as I can tell, the top 5 is:

4039
254
1114
2056
4917

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Dark magic is happening on The Blue Alliance, they already have uploaded all the picks for eliminations and who makes it to the semi finals and finals :ahh:

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

That's GTR-E data. Probably a mistake with the database/scraper, or FIRST has accidentally updated ONTO instead of ONWA.

EDIT: Yeah, it's FIRST's issue. http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/eve...eduleelim.html

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Final top 14 (first page of rankings):

4039
254
1114
2056
4917
3683
781
1285
2609
3161
1241
4678
5039
4069

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Just an update on the webcast and archiving.

Matches after Qualification 63 will have their archived copy posted after midnight tonight. We have run into our upload bandwidth limit.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Rankings are up:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/eve.../rankings.html

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

2014 Waterloo Alliance selections:
4039 1114 4907
0254 2056 0865
4917 1285 4777
3683 1241 4992
0781 4678 5033
2609 1334 3756
3161 2702 4519
5039 4525 4069

No declines! :]

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Never mind, I take that back, We will get them up now!

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I wonder if 2056 and 254 will try and perfect the truss-catch strategy they attempted earlier today in a qualification match.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Seems like you're right. That looks deadly.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

These eliminations are already insane. I can see why it's called the highest scoring regional in FIRST.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I would love to hear clarification on that G12 call on 1114 in SF1-1. Was it called for trapping/overt isolation at the end?

If so, that would be an interesting new development of possession rules. I haven't seen it called before for that.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I've seen that called for that exact same thing, several times at both Orlando and Palmetto. It's trapping.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

We've been called for that at Sacramento, although the penalty was not assessed until after we moved away from the ball. There is a lot of inconsistency in these types of calls.

It was called in quarters at CIR week 1.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

350 with no penalties....wow.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Please tell me that someone has videos of every match at the regional, or at least all of the elims, and will make them publicly available?

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

watchfirstnow.com archives the canadian events

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

They are all posted here.

http://watchfirstnow.com/

Not sure when they'll all be up but most of them are.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

The 350 point match was SF2-1.
http://watchfirstnow.com/archives/89798269

Three 60 point cycles (inbound to 865, 254 shoots over truss, 2056 catches, 2056 shoots high goal)
Two 50 point cycle (inbound to 865, 254 shoots over truss, 2056 shoots high goal)

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

A lot is at stake for SF 1-3. This will decide who will move on to champs due to 254's wild card, either 4039 or 3683.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Hall of fame teams don't generate Wildcards.

EDIT: Oh wait I get what you mean nevermind, I forgot about Central Valley.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I wonder if the head ref is reviewing video with Aidan right now?

Good call on the Chicken Dance with mascots and judges -- Waterloo rocks!

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Did that last blue low goal score go in or not??

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

And the band played on... and the judges do the chicken dance.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Waiting for the Ref's to decide, It went in the front, then out the side after the buzzer.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I believe it went in through the front, and somehow went out the side. I think that and another penalty is what they are discussing.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

That's the debate.

By the rulebook, probably not. It says 'remain completely' in the goal, although it is unclear how long 'remain' means, as I believe the ball was fully in the goal at some point.

I presume the delay is someone calling FIRST HQ to make sure the intent of the rule is clear and the actual definition of 'remain completely'.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

That's what the delay is for. Trying to decide that...

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Blue wins.

For the record, apparently the goal at the end of the game was not counted.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

What a match!! Good job to the ref for taking the time to review and reflect!

Cheers!!!

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

1114 is having the worst luck with fouls this year.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Eeek. Tough way to go. Getting a 50 point foul from the actions of the other alliances, in which they only get a 20 point foul. By the letter of the law, the calls seem correct, though.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

What I saw? 3683 pushed the BALL into the LOW GOAL just as time expired. 1114 was defending this action. The BALL went in the front face of the LOW GOAL, and came out the left face of it, instead of out the back face through the ALLIANCE STATION.

According to the announcement at the event?

1241 initiated damaging contact with 1114 outside the FRAME PERIMETER (20 pts awarded to RED)

1114 was > 20" outside their FRAME PERIMETER (50 pts awarded to BLUE)

LOW GOAL at T=0 was NOT SCORED.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Goal didn't count.

But 1114 just lost because 1241 broke their 'antenna', I don't get it. Isn't there a rule that you can't cause the other team to get a penalty? you penalize 1241 for causing the damage, but ALSO give 1114 a 50 point penalty for being outside 20" frame perimeter. You can't blame it on one team, then give more penalty points to the other team... ugh.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

The rule prevents STRATEGIES causing the opposing alliance to get fouls.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Here is the rule:
I don't think 1241's actions can be classified as a "strategy aimed" towards causing 1114 to take a foul, and certainly "solely" aimed at that goal. Thus it didn't violate <G14>, and not triggering <G14> means the foul on 1114 counts.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I believe that rule only applies to strategies aimed at trying to force your opponent to commit fouls. I doubt 1241 did that intentionally.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

This foul will be discussed all week.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives/89799948

At 1:15, you see the contact for a split second and 1114 losing their antenna. Not sure what you guys see, but it looked like 1241's intake hit the antenna from this angle.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

1114 still has a chance to win ONWI in 2 weeks time.

Brutal luck though.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Why does 1114's G24 violation result in a 50 pt technical? Was it continuous or repeated?

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

That's exactly what it looks like to me. Looks like incidental contact from 1241's intake broke the antenna.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I started at ~1:15 in the match, so it was continuous.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Their broken antenna remained >20" outside the FRAME PERIMETER for the remainder of the match.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Should it maybe be this?

G28
Initiating deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside the vertical extension of its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

It was continuous. One of their PVC antenna things fell backwards and went outside the 20 inches for a decent part of the match.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

There's nothing to discuss though, 1241 didn't do that on purpose - I'm sure even Sims would agree. Tough loss nonetheless.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

+1

1241 was not strategically trying to make 1114 extend out of their frame perimeter.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I'm pretty sure in good defense you want Incidental contact, but I'm absolutely sure it wasn't the intention of 1241 to break anything on 1114

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Oh, I agree. Nothing against 1241. It didn't look intentional at all.

But a 20 point foul caused a 50 point foul for the opponent. It will be discussed, even though I believe the refs got it right.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I know this will be another stick to beat Aerial Assist with (which is a shame, because these semi-finals/Waterloo in general has been one of the best exhibitions of what AA is capable of), but before it is, hasn't a scenario like this been possible every year?

Either way, with the definition of SCORED, the result was going to be unfortunate towards one alliance.

EDIT: I expect an update to change the wording of G24.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Called correctly within the rules or not.... You should not be able to damage someone elses robot and cause them to get a penalty.

Especially if you only get a 20pt penalty and they end up with a 50pt penalty.

Common sense should come into play at some point.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Am I watching the wrong video? Looks like 1114's red teammate, 4039, breaks off 1114's antenna with 69 seconds left in the match.

http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives/89799948

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

The rules in question, by my viewing:

We all agree that G14 is not invoked, as the actions were not deliberate.

G24 certainly should be called on 1114. Their antenna was >20" outside their FRAME PERIMETER for a continuous time. TECHNICAL FOUL.

G27 should be invoked by the "gameplay resulting in damage to opponent ROBOTs" clause. FOUL.

G28 should ALSO be invoked by "Initiating... damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT... inside the vertical extension of the FRAME PERIMETER". TECHNICAL FOUL.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

EDIT: Was wrong

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

With these finals though?

3683 is guaranteed their first seat at CMP (either they win, or 254's WILD CARD).
2056 is guaranteed their seat. (either they win, or 1241's WILD CARD)

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

"via actions such as..." provides examples, not an exhaustive list.

Regardless, the TECHNICAL FOUL from G28 would have made the red alliance win.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

"unless the actions of the damaged ROBOT are the catalyst for the damage"

The refs may have deemed that 1114's action of playing defence while 1241 was picking up was a catalyst to the damage caused.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

The antenna was broken beforehand. You can see for a split second that when 1241 is trying to pick up their ball a couple of seconds before, 1114's antenna is falling.

What is the use of those antennae, anyway? They light up once in a while.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Hard to tell with the way the video cuts right when it happens.

It looks like 1114 was trying to bump the ball away. I'd have a hard time making the call of whether or not their action was the catalyst for the damage, or simply that 1241 was racing to pick up the ball and happened to run into 1114 doing it.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

What rule was cited for the 20pt foul? I think I've confused myself.

It's hard to tell because the antenna is out of shot when that contact happens. You can only see it a second later in the reflection of the alliance station.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

The left one lights up when their shooter wheel is at speed. The right one doesn't light up. They're used for catching.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

1241 was trying to truss the blue ball.
1114 was playing defence.
1114 blocked the shot.
1241 tries to pick up the blocked blue ball.
1114 also heads towards the blue ball to play defence on 1241.
Both teams interact resulting in a broken antennae.


I'm sure there are many ways people will analyze this but I feel that both robots were part of the damage and that's why the refs did not call the technical foul on 1241.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Does anyone know the purpose of the antennae?

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I'm gonna guess that's how the refs have called it. If that's what they're calling it, the call is correct. Still seems kind of broken that I can cause my opponent to take a 50 pt penalty while only getting a 20 pt one myself, even if only by accident.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Paul said it best, while we were waiting for the result: hate the rules, not the refs. The refs called this one correctly by the rules.

Adam is right (see the previous page) -- common sense should come into this at some point.

------

Back to the event, still in progress. :)

Congratulations to the winners, 254/2056/865. Very well played! It is fun to watch this game being played with speed and skill.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

The way the refs ruled they didn't feel 1241 "caused" the collision. A collision "happened", thus the G27 for a result of gameplay.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Yeah, its situations like this that the G24-analog in various years has been among my least favourite rules. For years, I've thought its wording should be changed to have some wiggle room such as "intentional or consequential..." to allow refs to simply ignore minor damaged robot bits dragging on the floor without requiring them to call it. To me, the intent of the rule is to control robot design, not penalize broken bits.

Alternatively, design the game so that doing so can't be strategically advantageous.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I will just leave one question for discussion. If 1114's antennae had fallen completely off of their robot instead of bending down, how many penalty points would they have received? Why is this value different from the one which was assessed against them?

EDIT: Two questions. :)

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

This is why the rule needs to be amended. G19 (leaving parts on the field) is a TF only if intentional.

The inconsistency was a major oversight that was unfortunately brought to the spotlight.

EDIT: On a positive note, congratulations to 254/2056/865 for their victory!

Waterloo is consistently the best regional to watch, and that's a culmination of the collaboration of the quality of the teams, the great production (MC, GA, DJ, team behind the stream) and especially all the event organizers and volunteers who make it happen.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

That was a tough loss, but in my opinion, team DAVE's alliance earned the close score. They played some pretty sweet defense, and were able to make all three assists each cycle. It would have been nice to cap off our performance yesterday with a wildcard to the worlds, but I'm really proud of 4039 for getting so far in their third year. Congrats to 254, 2056 and 865 for their ridiculously awesome point totals. Good luck in St Louis.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Those eliminations were crazy fun to watch, and this was probably the hardest regional I've ever been at. Our robot was temperamental, the qualifying pace was _insane_ (about 30 minutes between matches. Thanks to a replay, we had 11 matches in a single day, and I think one of our alliance partners in our replay had 12 matches in a day), and the field was super-deep. With an average of 5 matches between each robot going up, it meant that most matches contained a veritable powerhouse (254/1114/2056), and due to the crazy depth at Waterloo, the rest of the matches contained a robot that'd be a thread to win any other regional on the planet. 3683, 4678, 781 pre-damage, 1241, 1285, 4917, and probably others I'm forgetting would all be big threats anywhere.

Outsider review: I had a friend come who had never heard of the game (or FIRST), and she thought the game was quite followable and was cheering at all the right spots. Granted these eliminations were among the best I've seen after 11 years going to competitions, so that may have played into it too. The (what felt like) 40-50-minute ref delay after the 4039/3683 semifinal was reviewed as pretty annoying, but overall she thought the game and event was pretty good. Looking at the match results it looks like it was only a 18-minute delay, but it felt _much_ longer.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Also, a took a video of a particularly problematic sensor on the robot: we had a two 3d-printed gears that communicated position from our shooter frame to a potentiometer. The circular gear that was on the pot input kept shifting (when it was on setscrews) and breaking (when we fixed it very firmly) on Friday, which is why our shooter was out of commission all day.

After we were out, I had the drive team do a dry fire and taped it with my sony action cam's 120fps mode to see if we could find evidence for why that gear seemed to be taking so much abuse. The video is inconclusive, but still neat to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEogRuD8lqU

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

@ 1:17 in video 1114 was driving to stop blue robot from picking the ball. Though blue robot was moving with extended appendage, it was 1114 who drove into them. From my couch it looks like refs made correct call.

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

I wonder how long the argument was trying to show that they were forced, by damaged caused by another robot, G14. to violate rule R3. Though G14 would not apply because the damage was not caused by "Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule"

So much influence the new rules update... Some regionals there was little defense!

Still such a supreme round of matches. Well done to all competitors!

Aloha!

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

Which teams received wild card slots? (If any)

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

3683 did, I believe that was it (due to 254 winning CVR).

Re: 2014 Waterloo Regional
 

That's correct.